Canvas 2 ~Niji-iro no Sketch~

[justinstrife]

Clue was such an awesome movie. I remember it VERY well from the 80's growing up. I didn't realize they had different endings shown at the theatre unlike the VHS's splice job. Man now I really need to pick up the DVD.

Man I hope they hurry up and sub the last two episodes. I'm so far behind

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

Something that forces you to look for a silver lining through intellectualization is not that good in the first place. There is nothing that has "no merit whatsoever," not even the worst historical atrocities, but if the bad outweighs the good, it is net bad.

Then it's a good thing that the good outweighs the bad in Canvas 2! And see, we're right back to where we started... I don't have to force myself at all... is it because I'm an optimist? A contrived ending simply doesn't kill the whole show for me, whereas it does for you. I guess that's all there is to it.

[Vexx]

For me it mostly means I may pick an earlier episode to just stop watching if I rewatch. Unfortunately, most series don't offer such clean breaks.

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Then it's a good thing that the good outweighs the bad in Canvas 2! And see, we're right back to where we started... I don't have to force myself at all... is it because I'm an optimist? A contrived ending simply doesn't kill the whole show for me, whereas it does for you. I guess that's all there is to it.

Nope, the bad outweighs the good in the finale, which is one of the most important parts of any show. Given that the finale has more weight than any other episode, and that it sucked badly, Canvas2's scale went from WIN to FAIL all in episode 24. If the studio decides to put out a good alternate ending next week, then the show can still be saved.

[MonkeyBrains]

Heh heh. Speaking of which, I asked this before, but it'll probably get lost cause the page cycled to a new one - can someone, please give me an example of an anime series where they actually did something like people have suggested, about this series and Shuffle (and probably KGNE too), regarding alternate endings. Seriously, how realistic is that? Has an anime series (based on an ero-game or not) ever done something like that before, having alternate endings (I'm not counting redoings of the whole series, like Kanon or the endless Tenchi iterations, just endings)?

I can actually think of one, but it ain't no ero-game. Evangelion. Although in a sense the movie was more like an extended ending rather than an alternate ending. Well, maybe a bit of both, really. But seriously, have they ever done anything remotely like that for another anime, particularly in this genre? Somebody's probably more familiar with this genre and could say (I'm looking at you, relentlessflame... )

[rooboy]

Originally Posted by MonkeyBrains

Heh heh. Speaking of which, I asked this before, but it'll probably get lost cause the page cycled to a new one - can someone, please give me an example of an anime series where they actually did something like people have suggested, about this series and Shuffle (and probably KGNE too), regarding alternate endings. Seriously, how realistic is that? Has an anime series (based on an ero-game or not) ever done something like that before, having alternate endings (I'm not counting redoings of the whole series, like Kanon or the endless Tenchi iterations, just endings)?

I can actually think of one, but it ain't no ero-game. Evangelion. Although in a sense the movie was more like an extended ending rather than an alternate ending. Well, maybe a bit of both, really. But seriously, have they ever done anything remotely like that for another anime, particularly in this genre? Somebody's probably more familiar with this genre and could say (I'm looking at you, relentlessflame... )

KGNE got an extended ending on the DVD (according to someone earlier).

Other than that, never. Though one of the 12 minute episode series (I think it was Wind) had a few extra episodes inserted through the DVD's, those were prepared in advance and intended to be integral to the plot.

So you can hold your breath for it, but don't blame me when you pass out.

EDIT: I actually can't comment on the Evangelion thing one way or the other (I've never seen it), but I thought that the movie was sort of an alternate ending that the director of the series basically said he was forced to do. If that was the case then I would actually think that's worse than being stuck with an ending I don't like.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by rooboy666

So you can hold your breath for it, but don't blame me when you pass out.

Haha... yup, pretty much Unless it was in the plan all along (and everyone knew about it), having an alternate ending (especially if he were to pick a different girl) would pretty much be putting your writers and series planners to shame. Granted that if there's money in it (as was the case for Eva), nothing's impossible (though, interestingly enough, as rooboy666 alluded to, they still insist that the TV end was as intended, despite the conceded lack of time). But with a show like this, I think they're just hoping to get their money back through merchandise sales - I just don't think there's enough money there to "take back" an ending and re-do it "properly" (though minor touch-ups are always possible). I think that, story-wise, what's done is done.

[npal]

Spoiler:

Well, ep 22 was a bit hopeful regarding the HirokixElis ending, but it still needs a bit more support before it can stand on its own as a viable option. If it can't get any more support than that, it's can be justified. But I differ from those that said that there was no clue at all. There are hints, but they're still not strong enough to support a HirokixElis ending. Not that I would be particularly unhappy with a Kiri ending, it seems natural up to this point.

Oh well, I won't know until the other 2 subs come out.
I didn't delete Shuffle, I'm certainly not going to delete Canvas either

[rooboy]

Originally Posted by npal

Spoiler:

Well, ep 22 was a bit hopeful regarding the HirokixElis ending, but it still needs a bit more support before it can stand on its own as a viable option. If it can't get any more support than that, it's can be justified. But I differ from those that said that there was no clue at all. There are hints, but they're still not strong enough to support a HirokixElis ending. Not that I would be particularly unhappy with a Kiri ending, it seems natural up to this point.

Oh well, I won't know until the other 2 subs come out.
I didn't delete Shuffle, I'm certainly not going to delete Canvas either

Spoiler:

I rewatched 21, 22, 23, and 24 today. I'm starting to think it's a Rorschach test, you get out of it what you want to see.
I do feel sorry for those of you who were spoiled though, it was definitely the kind of experience that you can't really have now. As I crept past the 12 minute mark of the last episode I was like . And the further it went the more my eyes climbed out of my head. Normally when I'm watching Canvas raw I'm actually running it in a window and playing solitaire, afterwards I'll go to Random Curiousity to make sure that I didn't miss anything big in the episode (I have yet to actually miss anything in a Canvas episode, though I did miss some minor stuff in a couple of the Lamune episodes).
So on Sunday I started it up. At the eight minute mark I had to turn off Solitaire and switch to full screen mode. I had to rewind twice to make sure characters were saying what I thought they were saying (once at 10 minutes and once at 14 minutes). Then I watched it again (thinking that I must have missed something, somewhere). Then I went and read Omni's blog on it (who, amusingly, seemed to have a very similar reaction to mine). Then I read everyone's thoughts on it and sat down to watch 21-24 again, with a few moments from some earlier episodes thrown in. It's kind of like the Sixth Sense or the Usual Suspects, if you don't know there's supposed to be a surprise ending, it floors you, but if you are aware that there is a surprise ending, you figure it out pretty quick.
Which is sort of interesting because if you watch them in sequence (without knowing the end) it seems like it's all about Kiri, but if you watch them knowing the end then it can seem all about Elis. In retrospect, the ending of 20 is actually pretty key (in that you don't see the outcome of Kiri's second confession). But in 23 it's Hiroki's idea to go spend Christmas night with Kiri, a date he breaks in 24 (though, in typical male fashion, Kiri has to call him to find out she's being stood up).
My only problem with it is that you could've replaced Elis with the Director or Hagino and had essentially the same ending. Elis is not really essential to making the trick work. Unless I missed it somewhere, they never really explain why he rejected Elis earlier and then suddenly changed his mind now. So the explanation is left completely up to you. I'm taking the "he decided Elis was his muse" route, but there's no evidence for it except for the fact that he painted the same painting she did. Speaking of which, if all he needed to do to get back on track was copy one of Elis' paintings, couldn't he have done that way back in episode 2 or 3?

[Vexx]

Same here... I keep Shuffle! for the same reason I keep Negima around ... there *are* few episodes worth rewatching in each ... and Canvas 2 is still mighty entertaining and I'll watch 23/24 before really getting grumpy
Perhaps I'll just splice together a series I'll call The Adventures of Hagino and Tomoko....

Spoiler:

yeah, that was kind of my take on ep22 .... you could sense a nasty undertide but most of the sensation was emanating from Kiri's very concealed sense of distraughtness and sadness. imo, way too subtle for the quality of animation to really project --- this would have worked better with live actors or much more detailed facial animation. I'm still not amused with the blindside ending --- even Shuffle! broadcast clues all the way back from the early eps that there was something suppressed about the Asa-Rin situation. I saw basically zero clues til ep22 that it might not be Safe Harbour Kiri ahead. ....edit: unfortunately, rooboy's critique makes it sound lamer and more random: "draw the girl's name out of a hat! she wins!" bleh

[rooboy]

I have to say that this single episode has spawned more discussion than the entire rest of the season. Which I find very amusing.

[npal]

What do you mean? It was the same for the fabled Shuffle episodes, although Shuffle had debatable (crappy) episodes in succession At least, if that's the case with Canvas, there's only ONE

Well, I can see the Shuffle feedback having an effect (though not the effect I was hoping for). The writers knew that if they wanted to screw up, they must wait until the final episode instead of putting up with legions of unsatisfied viewers for 4 whole episodes Although in Shuffle's case it wasn't a "why this ending?" but more like "that's how they resolved that??" Other than that, Shuffle didn't have any more flaws (except the crappy ep 24 animation and the winning couple of backstabbing traitors with no sense of shame).

So Yes! The writers can be taught Now someone needs to teach them right.

Spoiler:

Well, even if the Elis ending can stand on its own... Well... I mean, Poor Kiri, what's she going to do now? Hmm... Hope she goes SEEDMode and we have a good drama a la Shuffle (extend the series by 1-2 episodes or an OVA ). Of course then I'll jump ship What can I say, I'm always with the one who suffers most

[MonkeyBrains]

Originally Posted by rooboy666

Spoiler:

I rewatched 21, 22, 23, and 24 today. I'm starting to think it's a Rorschach test, you get out of it what you want to see.
I do feel sorry for those of you who were spoiled though, it was definitely the kind of experience that you can't really have now. As I crept past the 12 minute mark of the last episode I was like . And the further it went the more my eyes climbed out of my head. Normally when I'm watching Canvas raw I'm actually running it in a window and playing solitaire, afterwards I'll go to Random Curiousity to make sure that I didn't miss anything big in the episode (I have yet to actually miss anything in a Canvas episode, though I did miss some minor stuff in a couple of the Lamune episodes).
So on Sunday I started it up. At the eight minute mark I had to turn off Solitaire and switch to full screen mode. I had to rewind twice to make sure characters were saying what I thought they were saying (once at 10 minutes and once at 14 minutes). Then I watched it again (thinking that I must have missed something, somewhere). Then I went and read Omni's blog on it (who, amusingly, seemed to have a very similar reaction to mine). Then I read everyone's thoughts on it and sat down to watch 21-24 again, with a few moments from some earlier episodes thrown in. It's kind of like the Sixth Sense or the Usual Suspects, if you don't know there's supposed to be a surprise ending, it floors you, but if you are aware that there is a surprise ending, you figure it out pretty quick.
Which is sort of interesting because if you watch them in sequence (without knowing the end) it seems like it's all about Kiri, but if you watch them knowing the end then it can seem all about Elis. In retrospect, the ending of 20 is actually pretty key (in that you don't see the outcome of Kiri's second confession). But in 23 it's Hiroki's idea to go spend Christmas night with Kiri, a date he breaks in 24 (though, in typical male fashion, Kiri has to call him to find out she's being stood up).
My only problem with it is that you could've replaced Elis with the Director or Hagino and had essentially the same ending. Elis is not really essential to making the trick work. Unless I missed it somewhere, they never really explain why he rejected Elis earlier and then suddenly changed his mind now. So the explanation is left completely up to you. I'm taking the "he decided Elis was his muse" route, but there's no evidence for it except for the fact that he painted the same painting she did. Speaking of which, if all he needed to do to get back on track was copy one of Elis' paintings, couldn't he have done that way back in episode 2 or 3?

Spoiler:

I think Hiroki painting was supposed to be because he was touched by Elis finally using red again and that's why he painted. He had certainly been thinking about what he was doing while Elis was getting past her red issue on her own.

I think the problem is exactly how you identify it. I know when I watched episode 21 for the first time, and episode 22, my thought was, that Elis was still an open option, because of what they were not showing with Kiri, and the screen time Elis was getting. But at the same time, what bothered me then and now was what were they showing with ElisxHiroki? At most, the same ambiguous stuff they were show with any female character, and it was incredibly small. Knowing the ending, you can now go back and read the tiny ambiguous clues in a different way. But the ambiguous clues existed for Saya, Hagino, and Kiri as well. But it still annoying to resolve the ambiguous clues with the unambiguous statements and actions throughout the series. Yes, they didn't show the end of the confession, but then they show him fantasizing about his future in a happy way, and sets up a date that same episode. Yes, they showed him blushing when in bed with Elis in 22 (which leads him to tell Kiri the next day she doesn't need to always be there). But then the episode ends with Elis saying she's okay, her brother is her brother. Then he ups the ante and changes the date plan with Kiri to a hotel. Don't get me started about the first half of the series, up to at least episode 14, which feels like it was completely ignored to make way for this ending. They always focused on Elis, I just wish they had focused on ElisxHiroki at the tail end instead of doing what they did with what they showed of KirixHiroki.

The series' lead was Elis, so it would have been unusual for Hiroki not to hook up with Elis. She was getting a lot of screen time. But her relationship with Hiroki was not getting a lot of screen time in the romantic sense (quite the opposite really - it was being shown as non-romantic). It was because of the unambiguous actions combined with ambiguous clues that there were theories like relentlessflame's regarding the ending (a theory that would have been unusual in one of these shows).

I guess there's only one option left - "The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence!"

[Sailor Enlil]

Originally Posted by MonkeyBrains

Hmmm... A red herring...

On another topic...
Some people have ranted about showing an alternate ending or something on DVD. It's been brought up about Shuffle. Seriously, how realistic is that? Has an anime series (based on an ero-game or not) ever done something like that before, having alternate endings? I'm not that hip to the multitudes of anime out there. Can't even think of any American stuff that does.

Seriously, though, considering they left so much to the last episode of this series, in theory, this would be the series to do it...

I only know of two attempts at "alternate endings" for anime titles, though it's more like alternate storylines.

One is the first Memories Off OAV, where the lead hero (who starts of as a guy who's girlfriend just passed away and is trying to get over her death) ends up with one of 3 possible girls (in each of the 3 episodes). I emphasize alternate storylines because each episode could stand alone from each other, with only the lead hero, the deceased girlfriend, and the hero's childhood friend (who the hero ends up with in the first episode, whereas she's a supporting bystander in the other two eps) as common characters.

The other is the two episode hentai Class Reunion Again, which shares the same cast and effectively the same setting as the 4 ep OAV Yesterday Once More (in CRA the lead hero ends up with one of two girls - the popular girl in the first ep, or the childhood friend in the 2nd ep) but the way I see it, CRA seems a bit too alternate from YOM and their storylines don't really connect that much, and the two eps of CRA are also standalone from each other.

Admittedly, I think a similar stint could be applicable to Canvas2 (make an alternate ending(s), but not as a strict sequel - more like an altenate storyline that can stand alone). Hmm, how about a

Spoiler:

Canvas 2 Innocent Colors OAV?

[npal]

Spoiler:

Elis rules I just remembered why I came to like Elis so much. It was the "Yanagi is a jerk" attitude. She couldn't cook (she still doesn't manage it that well), she didn't do any chores well (she can take care of things now), she honestly tried to move on (some things worked and some didn't), she was the character that developed the most throughout the series. Plus she's cute, but then, all girls were. Anyway, when she practically told Yanagi off two times, I posted then that Elis is getting too many Hiroki vibes. And I liked her attitude towards Yanagi better than Hiroki's or Kiri's. Kiri is TOO friendly to a close friend who betrayed the one she loves anyway. Elis was the only one who stood for Hiroki in those episodes, and it was plainly obvious to everyone, including Yanagi. I don't know whether Kiri was more suited for Hiroki, but Elis was certainly more in tune with Hiroki (ok Hiroki was acting ok, but that's a bit unnatural considering how this whole deal affected him). So... well, Elis FTW

Edit: Me and my tendency to rush. I had to edit stuff again...

[justinstrife]

Ya I wasn't happy at all with how Hiroki and Kiri reacted and responded to Yanagi in the earlier episodes. They brushed off all that pain a little too easily if you ask me, where as Elis's response I thought was far more fitting. I also got the vibe that she picked up on the painting of Kiri "done by Yanagi" was actually a Hiroki composition to begin with. And when Yanagi tried to tell her how to make her painting better in the art club, she shook her head and said Hikori told her Aquamarine would be better. IMO, Hikori was flat in far too many episodes with moments like this, and Elis had to pick up the slack. This is why seeing her get what she wanted most, will make me overlook some of the issues I can see the last episode having.

[manly_madonna]

Spoiler:

Hmmmm...well...can't say it was the best ending, but I have to admit, I liked it far more with Elis then had it been Kiri. Kiri had little to no screen time where we see her developed as a character. Elis, on the other, I saw tranformed from a little girl to a young lady towards the end. Even though the girl of my choice would've been Tomoko-chan...nearly punched my screen when that last scene of her losing consciousness came on. Ask for all the opinions of the good or bad ending, well, this by far is probably the best ending out of all the last few anime that came out as of late. IE DCS2 and Shuffle I thought were worse. And Hiroki wasn't such a horrible male protagonist (he didn't do the whole 'I don't want to chose because then I'll hurt someone, it's better if I just don't say anything and drag them along for a while until they get tired of me or it falls down to just one girl' or the old 'Durrrrr...me am man. Me am no know that girls over dere be likey me...durrrrr.') In comparison to most romantic-comedies, Hiroki, in my book, is thus far the best male protagonist in the last year or two.

All in all, Canvas 2 was a great anime to watch and the ending itself had closure for the main characters. Actually, for characters all around really. For anyone reading this to see if C2 is worth watching, I say yes. Filled with scenes that's garunteed to make you smile and leave you feeling warm and fuzzy. Especially the scenes with chibi-Elis in them. She's just so damn, adorable! A harem-isque romance plot, minus the cliche spineless, whiney male protagonist, C2 may not be a 10, but its a high 7 IMHO.

[dan88]

The alternative ending for the any OVA needs to be Hagino and Hiroki getting together!

Originally Posted by rooboy666

Spoiler:

...... So the explanation is left completely up to you. I'm taking the "he decided Elis was his muse" route, but there's no evidence for it except for the fact that he painted the same painting she did.....

....in high school Hiroki and Yanagi drew the same picture so you are saying they were ment to be together! No wonder he turned down Kiri the first time!

Now that would have been a surprising ending!



....actually the more I think about it the more sense it makes! Hiroki is Gay!
I don't think I want them to release an alternative ending after all!

[npal]

Originally Posted by dan88

The alternative ending for the any OVA needs to be Hagino and Hiroki getting together!

Or any other for that matter, but Hagino has priority

Originally Posted by dan88

....in high school Hiroki and Yanagi drew the same picture so you are saying they were ment to be together! No wonder he turned down Kiri the first time!

Now that would have been a surprising ending!



....actually the more I think about it the more sense it makes! Hiroki is Gay!
I don't think I want them to release an alternative ending after all!

I've had that idea before It makes sense.

[MonkeyBrains]

Originally Posted by manly_madonna

Spoiler:

And Hiroki wasn't such a horrible male protagonist (he didn't do the whole 'I don't want to chose because then I'll hurt someone, it's better if I just don't say anything and drag them along for a while until they get tired of me or it falls down to just one girl' or the old 'Durrrrr...me am man. Me am no know that girls over dere be likey me...durrrrr.') In comparison to most romantic-comedies, Hiroki, in my book, is thus far the best male protagonist in the last year or two.

Spoiler:

You know, it might have been like that, if it had ended with Kiri, because he never lead on anyone, except her. And that's exactly what Hiroki did with Kiri particularly in the last episodes, he lead her on until the last possible second, like most harem-males do. And some of the "warm and fuzzy" moments are kind of empty because of it...

Well, it's a couple days later, and I think everyone's moved on. It's been a wild ride.