2012-05-07, 10:27 | Link #28721 |
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Join Date: Jan 2012
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LOL, what a troll post. Is this based on that multiple-hours youtube vid?
Anyway, I can answer this and I feel free to do it completly in red: 1. With your theory EP3-8 would be completly pointless, so it is FALSE! 2. The whole story about Eva surviving would be wrong, so it is FALSE! 3. Not only that but almost the whole story is unnecassary and BS, which leads again to: see "1.", so it is FALSE! 4. Who is the murderer of Nanjo in EP3? You cannot answer it, so it is FALSE! 5. What about the EP6 logic error? You cannot answer it, so it is FALSE! 6. What about the EP2 perfect closed room? You cannot answer it, so it is FALSE! THIS TRIAL IS FINISHED! DIE THE DEATH, SENTENCED TO DEATH, THE GREAT EQUALIZER IS DEATH! Oh and to add to it: I guarantee, that the theory you use right now, as it is, is WRONG! Last edited by GreyZone; 2012-05-07 at 10:40. |
2012-05-07, 12:07 | Link #28722 | ||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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I haven't really thought of a satisfying "why" for Battler knowing the epitaph's solution, however. Quote:
Come to think of it, it's pretty interesting that the Kinzo vision occurs when Erika is explaining what she thinks will happen with the family conference after the discovery of the gold. This means that if Battler was actually listening, which he likely was (since the Kinzo vision is false), he would have heard from Erika herself exactly what she expected (murder, no doubt). Now, we don't know exactly what Erika said, but if Battler knows what Erika thinks will happen, it puts him in the perfect position to play upon her expectations and act the roll of "Beatrice" against her, the "detective". There's also the meta-perspective: What meta-agenda does it serve by explaining Battler's spotting of the turned statue with the Kinzo vision; and what meta-agenda does it serve to also leave out Erika's predictions in favor of showing us the Kinzo vision? |
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2012-05-07, 14:31 | Link #28723 | ||
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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Tho I guess, in a way Yasu's feelings isn't that weird. Sure normal people don't pretend to be two other people then who they actually are, but pretty much everyone gives to others personas of themselves that aren't exactly their true selves. It's probably easiest to understand it with a different kind of example tho : It's like someone who is really good looking and has others falling for them simply because of their looks, and uncaring about their personalities. I think that's more or less Yasu's situation. She's unable to "be herself" and the feelings she has for others and that others have for her are based on basically lies. I think to some extent a lot of people on the net can more or less understand Yasu's situation. It sorta reminds me, in a way, of MGS2's relation between Rose and Raiden. In the end, she was a victim too and sorta made it know. Actually that's a relatively good question imo : Is Shannon and Kanon actual personas or just roles? It imo implies a lot depending on which way it goes including how legimately it can bypass red. Also I'm thinking that Battler ends up with Beato (and not with Yasu) is overly meaningful. There's no way this is right. There's a sort of simple calculation, I believe, that allows anyone to know how good/bad their theories are. It's pretty simple too. Ryuukishi wouldn't have written a story the size of the bible to make us discard most of it in the trash. I'm not saying that unless a theory incorporates 100% of Umineko's data that it makes sense, but overall that should be a "guide". The more you have to discard as "entirely useless/troll" the more your theory is wrong. This is somewhat the state of Shkanontrice. Even tho not that many people like the theory, the alternative means throwing most of Umineko to the trash, which is just not productive. That should be especially true, I should say, of anything that tries to contradict OC. Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2012-05-07 at 14:41. |
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2012-05-07, 18:30 | Link #28724 | |||||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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It's Battler that presents part of the reasoning done to solve the epitaph, with Erika just saying something along the line of 'yes, I thought so too' instead than, 'yes, that's what I'm saying/said to you previously'... They seem to have worked on it in the same way in which they solved the riddle given by Maria in EP 6, each of them reaching the same solution. If anything however I can think that the only clue Erika somehow figured out and Battler didn't is the fact that the beloved hometown was in Taiwan... though actually it's possible Battler went to the library because he had figured/remembered/being told it and just didn't feel like jumping on an atlas with Erika around. It's also possible that Battler really had been handed the solution for some reason and was there merely to pretend he reached the solution searching in the library. Erika being there and doing the work for him just made things easier. Quote:
Metaphorically speaking, seeing Kinzo might represent some sort of him taking responsiblity for the situation they're in. If he'd pulled back from solving the epitaph, Erika would have solved it and would have owned the gold. If he doesn't know Kinzo is dead he could legittimately think that if Erika were to find the gold Kinzo would let it to her. All considered the blow would be worse for Jessica if he were to find the gold in place of Erika (though probably he's also being naive). Quote:
Or not believed it. He seems to trust his relatives, he wouldn't expect them to try and kill each other, maybe to argue but likely he would think Erika was exaggerating if she were to say they'll kill each other. Though yes, Erika might have been saying something interesting. Quote:
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She gave them a character but she ended up living their experiences... which in a fashion should have been very confusing for her. Having an imaginary friend and saying 'oh, she's dating with George' and fantasyzing over it is a thing, playing the role of that imaginary friend and dating George and being on the receiving end of his affection must be something else. So, even through it was 'Shannon' who was supposed to love George and 'Kanon' who was supposed to love Jessica in the end she was the one receiving the love of Jessica and George... though neither of the two knew he was loving her. I wonder if George is the love duel winner merely because Shannon, who had birth as her superego/role model, is more similar to the real Yasu than Kanon and therefore 'stronger'. |
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2012-05-08, 07:05 | Link #28725 |
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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Some random thoughts I had:
- It is interesting that in the story Bern tells (the witch of miracles), Eva has so many incredibly close misses. Almost a miracle she didn't get shot either time (and possibly Beatrice)... - Why the heck DID Eva shoot the gun in Ep3, it need not necessarily have shot Battler mind you, just been fired. - A few people have toted the whole "Yasu planned a murder mystery (is therefore innocent), but my confessions sort of implies it would be hard to get some (*cough Natsuhi cough*) to go along with it. If you say she used blackmail, that doesn't seem very innocent. - Did Kanon/Shannon ever truly come back to life post personality death? If they never actually played a role again after they were declared red dead, then it is as pretty much as legitimate as Sakutaro being dead and Krauss being dead. |
2012-05-08, 08:46 | Link #28726 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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On the games themselves Yasu planned a mass murder for real and she killed people for real with her own hands. There isn't much debate on this part since it is clear enough. As to how she managed to get people on her side: bribes, blackmails, and lies. Inside the same game? You mean episode 3, I suppose? Well apart from the times they were "resurrected" for George and Jessica I don't think so.
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2012-05-08, 09:08 | Link #28727 | |
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Also, isn't Our Confessions just another "game"? |
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2012-05-08, 11:22 | Link #28728 |
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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It's the writing of a game, which is different.
Besides, my point is whether a fictional murder mystery or a serial murder, it seems hard to imagine Natsuhi getting involved without some sort of pressure. Ep 6 is a little out of character in that manner, besides, we don't know how Battler convinced them to play along in game.... |
2012-05-08, 12:14 | Link #28730 | ||
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"NAAAAAAAAAAATSUHIIIII! If you want the children to be safe, then come and confront me, the "child from 19 years ago", the golden witch! You can find me, where i always have been!" (last part refering to the portrait in the entrance hall) Ok maybe not like this, but i guess something along these lines could be it. Quote:
Blackmailing would be along the lines of EP5, where she is pressured with the incident of the "child from 19 years ago". a Deal would mean that "if she does this and that, she gets some of the gold/money from the credit card, to deal with her family's financial problems. I don't see how the "Deal" would be something negative in this aspect. So if she was bribed, it would be no problem and possibly everyone could be happy... and I think playing along with a murder mystery game would be a small "shamelessness", compared to the PRIZE. But it seems a bomb exploded (+possibly murders occured before that) and terminated this happy ending. |
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2012-05-08, 12:50 | Link #28731 |
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Join Date: Nov 2011
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My opinion on Natsuhi's letter in EP1 was that it was basically Yasu confessing that she tricked Natsuhi and the people that she had been led to believe were faking were in fact dead. Then Natsuhi chased after her and confronted her, so Yasu shot her.
Also, if Rosa found a similar letter in EP2 (perhaps on Shannon's corpse), that might explain why she suddenly panics, grabs the gold and tries to get off the island at the end. |
2012-05-08, 19:20 | Link #28732 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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2012-05-08, 23:23 | Link #28733 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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So Natsuhi, who aspires to be "the good Japanese wife", might be willing to do some shady things for the sake of the family, so long as she doesn't get caught. |
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2012-05-09, 18:37 | Link #28734 | ||
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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Going back to Shkanon and loooove, it's wierd. I'm reading through the 'Answer of the Golden Witch" interview, and even Ryukishi keeps doubling back on the culpability and placement of the personas. For example, at one point he says Shannon is the first and mostpowerful spectator of their worldview, but also compared the personas to "software", in that "he piece, Shannon" isn't the murderer. It's weird and evasive and Keiya's style of questioning does nothing to help matters.
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I'unno - it's sort of like the Forgery No.xxx TIP, right? With the evil crazy Battler? Even though Battler would likely have no substantive reason to wanna just start choking bitches? But outside of Kanon being kinda miffed, he and Ronove still seemed to be willing to go on with it as though it were a totally legitimate game, like all the others they give a passing mention to. |
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2012-05-10, 12:48 | Link #28735 |
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Join Date: Nov 2011
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You know, I had a thought about the commonly accepted Episode 5 theory the other day: how does Krauss' disappearance and red-confirmed death tie into the 'farce set up to make Natsuhi reveal Kinzo's death' theory?
I mean, for one thing, it's hard to imagine Krauss was actually part of the conspiracy, since he'd have absolutely nothing to gain from it, so his disappearance can't have been of his own will. So who kidnapped him, and who killed him? (Remember, it was said in red that he died soon after Natsuhi received the phone call - so it can't be a "well, he died when the bomb went off with everyone else" worldplay.) And why are the conspirators not worried about someone disappearing outside their plan? In fact, if it was outside their plan, then why didn't they have a sixth fake victim set up? If Krauss hadn't disappeared, after all, there would be one too few sacrifices for the first twilight. |
2012-05-10, 13:55 | Link #28736 |
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Join Date: May 2009
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The first question to ask there is, who did it?
It doesn't seem it would be the anti-Natsuhi conspirators as they do not appear to actually be trying to murder anyone. Furthermore, Krauss is unlikely to participate in such a conspiracy and so at the very least it would be quite criminal to kidnap him, let alone actually kill him. Erika at the very least doesn't seem aware of or concerned about it. Why not? Shouldn't she be? If she suspects a conspiracy of sorts and is playing into it, or is just falling for the conspiracy pointing her toward Natsuhi, shouldn't the whole Krauss thing stand out? If it was the servants and/or MF19YA, when was Krauss taken? When was he killed? Why was he killed; what would that have helped?
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2012-05-10, 14:28 | Link #28737 | |||||
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Let's remember EP 3 is a fiction that aimed to have the same result as the one that people supposed Prime had so Battler 'had to die'. Quote:
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Note that Erika's solution isn't the right one but Lambda allowed it to be accepted without countering her theories with some red. So even if Erika said/thought that Krauss was killing by Natsuhi and Kinzo and overlook the phonecall threatening Natushi in the same way she didn't solve the mystery about the letter, Lambda wouldn't pressure her into doing so. |
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2012-05-10, 16:55 | Link #28739 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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- Krauss is trying to cover up for Kinzo's death. They might think he wants to avoid taking responsibilities for what he did faking his own death. |
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2012-05-10, 18:33 | Link #28740 | |||
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the Meta- World... on Virgillia's bed.
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As for my thought on Chiru Battler's differences with his Original, I was under the impression that he was always capable of having such intelligence but it was never utilized because of the fact that he was incompetent. I assume that in Chiru, his intelligence was becoming more apparent because the truth of the game was becoming more apparent. In other words, as the games became closer to reflecting Prime- Reality, so too was Battler. So, I agree with the notion that Chiru Battler is closest to Prime Battler. Speaking of Prime, my theory is that the explosion was by accident and that EP8 reflected what actually happened in a more mystical form. I believe the following events happened: -Beatrice announces herself as Kinzo's illegitimate child and heir to the family fortune, who disquised herself as a servant to Ushiromiya family. Naturally the adults were suspicious but Nanjo, Genji, and Kumasawa assured them that it was the truth and told them of Kinzo's affairs with the other two Beatrices. -Despite the initial stir, the family decides to host a halloween party to inaugurate Beatrice as an addition to the family. Beatrice decides to make murder mystery game out of it and everyone fakes their death with Battler, George, and Jessica as the detectives and herself as the culprit (and Maria as her accomplice). -To add difficulty to the game, Beatrice assures the family of the existence of the Hidden Gold and says that it's their's if they can solve the epitaph. Naturally, the family solves it and finds the gold, but amidst the excitement the bomb is switched on. -When Beatrice realizes the switch was on, she tries to tell everybody but was too late. Everybody still believed the game was still on and diligently played their parts until... *boom*. Beatrice was only able to tell Battler and Eva. Eva went to the Hidden Mansion where she was safe from the explosion while Battler and Beatrice left off the island. -After that, well... you know the story. As proof of all this, EP1-2's portrayal of Battler were kid- like, right? That could mean that both were probably written before the conference as what Beatrice says herself at the end of EP8 could be referring to these two stories, which she couldn't have written during the conference. Thus, as some of us have assumed, she did pre- plan the murder but not with the intent to carry out actual murders, whether the idea to make the conference a murder mystery game was probably just a fun thought she had at the moment and a good chance to make her stories a reality.
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