The General Discussion of Haruhi Suzumiya

[ijuinkun]

Starting from the assumption that Sasaki's power ultimately derives from Haruhi's (though this may turn out not to be true when we get the rest of the story), I believe that the whole Anti-SOS-Dan were created out of Haruhi's desire to have a "dark mirror image" of herself to serve as an arch-rival (i.e. exactly the sort of thing that Koizumi's Agency were trying to prevent by providing her with an enemy in the form of the Student Council President).

Haruhi wants an opponent that she can think of as an equal, against whom to have a glorious war and victory. Thus, she takes the most plausible rival for Kyon's affections outside of her circle of friends--i.e. Sasaki--and empowers her to create her own Closed Spaces and such. She then surrounds this rival with mirror versions of her own allies, and tops it off by reversing her own group's friendship and unity by having each of the Anti-SOS-Dan running their own agenda and being a mere alliance of convenience. The cherry on top is having Kyon become the turning point of the entire "war"--Haruhi wants him to choose her side "of his own free will" (at least what she THINKS is his free will), and bring her victory out of his caring for her. In sum, this is all a big scheme to put Kyon through the ultimate test of character to see if he truly loves her or would instead go for another girl who apparently has all of the same trappings and also has the kind of personality that Kyon keeps protesting he would prefer over Haruhi's antics.

[Blaat]

Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4

See a pattern?

Some perspective would have been nice considering all of Tanigawa's works were put on hold since 2007 (not just Haruhi) either he had a massive writer's block or he had health problems.
Also I'm not sure what you expected from the anti-SOS dan I thought having a time traveller, an esper and alien was a given considering the 'evil' esper/time traveller/alien faction build-up we've heard off or seen since the first novel.

[Gamer_2k4]

Originally Posted by ijuinkun

Starting from the assumption that Sasaki's power ultimately derives from Haruhi's (though this may turn out not to be true when we get the rest of the story), I believe that the whole Anti-SOS-Dan were created out of Haruhi's desire to have a "dark mirror image" of herself to serve as an arch-rival (i.e. exactly the sort of thing that Koizumi's Agency were trying to prevent by providing her with an enemy in the form of the Student Council President).

Sure, you can retroactively justify it from a plot perspective, but that's not really the point. The point is that it IS a "dark mirror image," and nothing more. What would you think of Star Wars if, over the course of the movies, the heroes had to face a farm boy, a smuggler, a princess, and a big furry alien, all of which represented the dark side (and worked directly together)?

Originally Posted by Blaat

Some perspective would have been nice considering all of Tanigawa's works were put on hold since 2007 (not just Haruhi) either he had a massive writer's block or he had health problems.

Assuming the first is the case, how is that different from what I said?

Originally Posted by Blaat

Also I'm not sure what you expected from the anti-SOS dan I thought having a time traveller, an esper and alien was a given considering the 'evil' esper/time traveller/alien faction build-up we've heard off or seen since the first novel.

I would expect there to not be one at all. I know each faction has its dissenters; we've seen that with Asakura. But, as SHOWN with Asakuru, you can have an interesting villain without making them a carbon copy. Instead, we get that black-haired chick, who's more Yuki than Yuki was. The anti-time traveler started off alright, too: He can travel through time, but he hates that ability, and as a result he tries to screw everything up. That's valid. So why clump him with the other three?

I mean, yeah, I get that it's easier to write that way. But that just underlines my point that the ideas are running out, doesn't it? Just look at Disappearance. Everything we knew about every character was up-ended and replaced, and we had the first major antagonist shift in the series. Instead of cramming in new characters, existing ones were developed (Asakuru and Big Mikuru originally felt like throwaways for the sake of the first book). It WASN'T an obvious copy or even a simple continuation, and guess what? People think it's the best book of the series.

[Otaku Guy]

I know the big hatred for the Endless Eight but am I the only one who liked it / didnt care that it took up eight episodes?

[wistfulloner]

Originally Posted by Otaku Guy

I know the big hatred for the Endless Eight but am I the only one who liked it / didnt care that it took up eight episodes?

I'm just pissed that real, original and otherwise different content could have been produced in place of 8 copypasta episodes. However I appreciated the artistic direction on Kyoani's part. I was annoyed when I first watched endless eight, but It kinda gave me that avant garde feeling, like I never seen an animation company pull something similar off before.

Kyoani had the balls to try something new, at least, can't say the same for other shows.

[aegisofrime]

Originally Posted by wistfulloner

I'm just pissed that real, original and otherwise different content could have been produced in place of 8 copypasta episodes. However I appreciated the artistic direction on Kyoani's part. I was annoyed when I first watched endless eight, but It kinda gave me that avant garde feeling, like I never seen an animation company pull something similar off before.

Kyoani had the balls to try something new, at least, can't say the same for other shows.

If I'm not wrong there wasn't anything else KyoAni could have animated. There's only Bamboo Leaf, Sighs and Endless Eight. They couldn't do Disappearance since that became a movie, and anything after that would have to come after Disappearance.

[wistfulloner]

Originally Posted by aegisofrime

If I'm not wrong there wasn't anything else KyoAni could have animated. There's only Bamboo Leaf, Sighs and Endless Eight. They couldn't do Disappearance since that became a movie, and anything after that would have to come after Disappearance.

I would have loved to see more of The Rampage of HS, namely Snowy Mountain Syndrome get animated. Considering that EE and Snowy mountain are from the same book, they could have appeared next to each other in S2.

But I'm sure Kyoani had their reasons.

[Otaku Guy]

Originally Posted by wistfulloner

I would have loved to see more of The Rampage of HS, namely Snowy Mountain Syndrome get animated. Considering that EE and Snowy mountain are from the same book, they could have appeared next to each other in S2.

But I'm sure Kyoani had their reasons.

Yeah I agree Snowy Mountain Syndrome would have been good.

[Goggen]

Originally Posted by wistfulloner

I would have loved to see more of The Rampage of HS, namely Snowy Mountain Syndrome get animated. Considering that EE and Snowy mountain are from the same book, they could have appeared next to each other in S2.

Doesn't Snowy Mountain actually take place after Disappearance?

[PastPrime]

Originally Posted by Goggen

Doesn't Snowy Mountain actually take place after Disappearance?

Yes. Kyon knew that they would be alright because he hadn't gone back to save himself yet. It was shortly after that that he went back to save himself and complete the Disappearance arc.

[Otaku Guy]

Not to get off topic but...
Whats with all the fighting at the top?
Like cant we all just get along?

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by Otaku Guy

Not to get off topic but...
Whats with all the fighting at the top?
Like cant we all just get along?

It's a battle of opinions, best for everyone to let them fight it out till it slowly dies down.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4

Sure, you can retroactively justify it from a plot perspective, but that's not really the point. The point is that it IS a "dark mirror image," and nothing more. What would you think of Star Wars if, over the course of the movies, the heroes had to face a farm boy, a smuggler, a princess, and a big furry alien, all of which represented the dark side (and worked directly together)?

Assuming the first is the case, how is that different from what I said?

I would expect there to not be one at all. I know each faction has its dissenters; we've seen that with Asakura. But, as SHOWN with Asakuru, you can have an interesting villain without making them a carbon copy. Instead, we get that black-haired chick, who's more Yuki than Yuki was. The anti-time traveler started off alright, too: He can travel through time, but he hates that ability, and as a result he tries to screw everything up. That's valid. So why clump him with the other three?

I mean, yeah, I get that it's easier to write that way. But that just underlines my point that the ideas are running out, doesn't it? Just look at Disappearance. Everything we knew about every character was up-ended and replaced, and we had the first major antagonist shift in the series. Instead of cramming in new characters, existing ones were developed (Asakuru and Big Mikuru originally felt like throwaways for the sake of the first book). It WASN'T an obvious copy or even a simple continuation, and guess what? People think it's the best book of the series.

There's no point even arguing with you anymore, since it's obvious that every one of your points is based and biased around your inability to just let yourself enjoy the story. Every story requires a bit of that, the old "suspension of disbelief", since no work is perfect, and even if there was one, any differences between the author's world and the reader's worldviews would cause perceived errors.

...

[Gamer_2k4]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

There's no point even arguing with you anymore, since it's obvious that every one of your points is based and biased around your inability to just let yourself enjoy the story. Every story requires a bit of that, the old "suspension of disbelief", since no work is perfect, and even if there was one, any differences between the author's world and the reader's worldviews would cause perceived errors.

Did you even read my post? "Suspension of disbelief" has nothing to do with any of the points I made. The first paragraph was a legitimate question. The second paragraph was a reference to the delay between novels, which isn't even tangentially related to bias or suspension of disbelief. The last two paragraphs both contained PRAISE of certain aspects of the stories.

I'm not biased, and neither are the things I say. In fact, I'd argue that YOU'RE the biased one, as you ignore valid points and actual APPROVAL from me, simply because our viewpoints differ. You're so convinced that I can't say anything positive that you completely miss the times I do.

...

[CrowKenobi]

Guys, I understand that everyone is not on the same page when it comes to discussion of this anime, but when you go beyond simple debate to personal disagreements, then a line must be drawn. If anyone has any personal disagreements with another member, then please take those to either PM or VM since those are off topic in the main forum.

Thank you.

[Hooves]

CrowKenobi comes and saves the thread

[Otaku Guy]

I've been waiting for someone to show up. <3

[wistfulloner]

Can't we all get along?

[Guernsey]

^ No sadly, we cannot.

[RandySyler]

Originally posted wishfulloner
But I get your joke. Shit, Kyon dreaming within his dreams? Reminds me of a certain movie out there...

The Inception of Haruhi Suzumiya?