(CR) Granbelm

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Endscape

And yet, at the end of the day, Mangetsu calmly gave up on life to make Shingetsu

Yeah, and it was the one thing she did of her own accord. That was how Shingetsu realized she wasn't just a doll but a real friend.

Magiaconatus's dreams come true

But not out of manipulation. Out of free will, as counter intuitive as that might seem.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I think you're missing the point a bit there. If they portrayed magic as more explicitly evil or negative, they would have made the conflict too clear-cut and would lose the message they were going for.

Honestly, I think they made the conflict rather clear-cut by having the two main antagonists - Anna and Suishou - be so over-the-top campy villainous. I mean Anna was downright comedic in how driven by RAEG she was, and there's a real sense that Ernesta did her absolute best to try to calmly talk Anna down, and Anna just refused to listen.

Meanwhile, Suishou took clear sadistic delight in mentally tormenting Kuon and Mango.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I found Anna and Suishou highly entertaining antagonists. But at the same time, they're portrayed in a way that most people probably won't be inclined to give much credibility to their more serious arguments against Mango and Ernesta's positions on magic. So they're not really good characters to achieve the sort of moral ambiguity or "open argument" that you're referring to here.

For a point of comparison, consider Thanos in the Marvel movies, and Madoka Magica's Kyubey. Both are presented as very calm and calculating figures, not particularly emotional, and not delighting in the suffering of others (even if they are not particularly troubled by it either). That, I think, gives greater weight to them when it comes to things like messages and themes.

Ultimately, I come away with the impression that this anime is rather clear-cut in being anti-magic (or anti whatever magic is supposed to be a metaphor for here - nuclear weaponry/nuclear energy is one idea that came to mind for me).

I guess Madoka fans wouldn't like that. Madoka was a show in which the pros and cons of every action were pretty clear cut.

Agreed. Perhaps Gen Urobuchi really does have more western sensibilities than some of his colleagues, leading to his works being more resonant with some of us.

Indeed, when Madoka asks her wish, it comes off as a very calculated wish, specifically crafted to trick QB and get something very specific out of it. That was interesting but a bit too idealized and convenient.

Why? I'd argue that many of the more famous and successful people in real life human history similarly had to make very calculated choices in order to achieve specific goals.

Originally Posted by Endscape

Another strike against their arguments to my mind is that Shingetsu and Mangetsu are magical prodigies, for whom magic is near effortless (because they're being helped by Magiaconatus). It's easy for them to make arguments like these because they never really had to work hard at magic to begin with.

Good point. If magic is difficult for most people to master then it won't necessarily make life too easy for people.

Is doing all of that for some admittedly minor betterment of the future really worth more than helping the people that were hurt by Magiaconatus in the present?

That also was on my mind. There's this one scene in one of the earlier episode where Ernesta is actually brought to tears while thinking about Anna. I honestly find it a little odd that Ernesta seemingly never even considered making a wish to recover Anna. I mean, I know Anna was't very sympathetic, but that doesn't change how Ernesta seemed to really care about her. If you really care about someone, and have a chance to save them...

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

It does seem like an issue here is that basically Shingetsu was really spoiled by magic. She's given all this power and favor and doesn't appreciate it. So she's more inclined to just give it up. To those that are less fortunate and have many issues to think about right now, well....

Magiaconatus did it!

Shingetsu wasn't a Mary Sue... but she did seem overpowered. Like, she pretty consistently had the upper-hand in all of her fights. She often told her opponents "you cannot defeat me" or something to that extent, and sure enough, she'd then go on to win.

Part of me suspects that Kazu-kun loves this about Shingetsu, and likes Shingetsu for being a cool badass that sticks to her goals and accomplishes them in the end. And that's fine! I can get somebody liking this. But, for me, it's another thing that drains any real sense of ambiguity or "open argument" from the moral/ideological conflicts of this anime.

Shingetsu was almost always in control. There was maybe a brief period where it looked like Shingetsu's heart might waver due to her fondness for Mango, but Mango herself rather decisively shut that down.

To me, this was actually a very thematically straightforward narrative. And for viewers who like the theme (anti-magic or anti-whatever magic is a metaphor for), it makes sense that they'd really like the show.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Honestly, I think they made the conflict rather clear-cut by having the two main antagonists - Anna and Suishou - be so over-the-top campy villainous. I mean Anna was downright comedic in how driven by RAEG she was, and there's a real sense that Ernesta did her absolute best to try to calmly talk Anna down, and Anna just refused to listen.

Anna and Suishou might be assholes, but they're not magic. They're just two crazy characters. What they do doesn't prove that magic is bad. Ultimately the show doesn't even try to make it clear whether magic is bad or not, or even if what Ernesta did was the right thing to do. And this is by design.

Agreed. Perhaps Gen Urobuchi really does have more western sensibilities than some of his colleagues, leading to his works being more resonant with some of us.

That could be true. Granbelm definitely strikes me as very eastern in its sensibilities. Specially the idea that you can exercise free will by choosing to support or follow someone else's goals. That's very Asian.

Why? I'd argue that many of the more famous and successful people in real life human history similarly had to make very calculated choices in order to achieve specific goals.

Most of the time is the opposite, actually. Specially if we're talking about people who changed the world in a ideological or spiritual way. It was most definitely a gamble for most of them, not something calculated. I gave the example of Siddhartha because I think both Granbelm and Madoka draw ideas from Buddhism, but you could say the same thing about Jesus, Gandhi, and many others.

Part of me suspects that Kazu-kun loves this about Shingetsu, and likes Shingetsu for being a cool badass that sticks to her goals and accomplishes them in the end. And that's fine! I can get somebody liking this. But, for me, it's another thing that drains any real sense of ambiguity or "open argument" from the moral/ideological conflicts of this anime.

Actually, I didn't like the show at first exactly because I thought it would be just some OP character easily beating everyone else. The show became more palatable when it was suggested Shingetsu was strong only because her goal was somehow in line with Magiaconatus'. At that point it became clear Granbelm wasn't really a tournament, and that winning wasn't even the point. Even if, say Nene or Kuon, won Granbelm, they wouldn't have become Princeps, because it wasn't a matter of power but ideals and goals. And that's interesting and somewhat fresh.

Shingetsu was almost always in control. There was maybe a brief period where it looked like Shingetsu's heart might waver due to her fondness for Mango, but Mango herself rather decisively shut that down.

I can agree that she was too sure of what she wanted to do all the way through. I'd have liked a little more internal conflict and wavering. I did like the resolution though.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Honestly, I think they made the conflict rather clear-cut by having the two main antagonists - Anna and Suishou - be so over-the-top campy villainous. I mean Anna was downright comedic in how driven by RAEG she was, and there's a real sense that Ernesta did her absolute best to try to calmly talk Anna down, and Anna just refused to listen.

Meanwhile, Suishou took clear sadistic delight in mentally tormenting Kuon and Mango.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I found Anna and Suishou highly entertaining antagonists. But at the same time, they're portrayed in a way that most people probably won't be inclined to give much credibility to their more serious arguments against Mango and Ernesta's positions on magic. So they're not really good characters to achieve the sort of moral ambiguity or "open argument" that you're referring to here.

For a point of comparison, consider Thanos in the Marvel movies, and Madoka Magica's Kyubey. Both are presented as very calm and calculating figures, not particularly emotional, and not delighting in the suffering of others (even if they are not particularly troubled by it either). That, I think, gives greater weight to them when it comes to things like messages and themes.

Ultimately, I come away with the impression that this anime is rather clear-cut in being anti-magic (or anti whatever magic is supposed to be a metaphor for here - nuclear weaponry/nuclear energy is one idea that came to mind for me).

Personally, I don't think Shingetsu's attempts at talking Anna down were very good (her speech to Anna in Episode 6 remains one of the most condescending things I've ever heard out of a protagonist of anything), but I get your point.

In the end, both Anna and Suishou's weren't villains but victims of Magiaconatus's manipulations, especially Anna. The show was clearly trying to go for an anti-magic message, but it gets muddled by the presence of a shadowy overlord who is the real cause of all the problems.

Agreed. Perhaps Gen Urobuchi really does have more western sensibilities than some of his colleagues, leading to his works being more resonant with some of us.

I think this is more Urobuchi being better versed in writing and exploring tragedy and it's themes.

That also was on my mind. There's this one scene in one of the earlier episode where Ernesta is actually brought to tears while thinking about Anna. I honestly find it a little odd that Ernesta seemingly never even considered making a wish to recover Anna. I mean, I know Anna was't very sympathetic, but that doesn't change how Ernesta seemed to really care about her. If you really care about someone, and have a chance to save them...

Magiaconatus manipulated Anna into being driven insane with envy so Shingetsu would continue to be isolated and blame herself for being the cause of her instability due to her helping Anna with magic when they were kids, so she would believe magic cannot be used to help people.

It's not odd, it's deliberate. She has been conditioned to think this way. She didn't even think of helping Mangetsu with magic until Nene pointed it out.

[Triple_R]

@Kazu-Kun, Endscape, and Archon_Wing

Thank you all for a good discussion. There's maybe a couple tangents and/or nitpicks that could be developed further, but I think we all now have a pretty good understanding of our respective takes on this show and its ending.

And this discussion has changed my take a little. I now view Magiaconatus as more totally core to the narrative than I did before. Previously, I viewed it as barely sentient or not sentient at all, just playing out its own programming in a sense. But now I'm inclined to agree more with Endscape, since the idea that Magiaconatus was carefully manipulating everyone to a particular desired end works well for me, at least in the sense that it fits the entire plot pretty smoothly the more I think about it. So Granbelm is essentially about Magiaconatus wanting to commit "suicide by cop", and succeeding in the end with Ernesta playing the cop role there.

[Applehell]

I don't think it's quite right to be putting all the blame for Shingetsu dislike of magic on Magiaconatus even if did play a role in it. That ignores the theme undercurrent theme of the show about the nature of power and history of why magic was sealed in the first place and Magiaconatus was not around then. This sort off of thing is discussed in the final episode. The show pretty notes that when magic was unrestricted humaniry nearly wiped themselves out and not because magic was necessarily that is bad, but human don't know how handle that power regardless of what moral spectrum their on. Even Nene's mom warned about the dangers of magic and often forbid her daughters form exercising that power when possible. Besides Magiaconatus didn't tell Shingetsu to use her powers to play a fool for Anna, she did on her own abit with good intentions. People being drawn to her also was not the fault of Magiaconatus but humans themselves seeking to use her for one reason or another. And Suishou makes a good point, if wasn't magic it would be something else. So I could see Shingetsu eventuality coming the same conclusion she did even any of Magiaconatus involvement because a lot of problems were caused by her unintentional actions and magic community's obsession getting that power at any cost.

Don't get me wrong Magiaconatus is manipulative at least to a degree, but it is only taking advantage of existing problems rather than creating them imo. At least I don't want think this show is so simple that everything can be pinned on it.

So I don't feel the show is asking us whether what Shingetsu did was right or wrong as we have no way to know, but to understand why she would make that choice. If had been a different main character with a completely different experience than another conclusion probably would been reached, but this show frames much worldview through Shingetsu and the harsh lives mage community who doomed themselves to chased down this lost power.

[alt_account]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Ultimately, I come away with the impression that this anime is rather clear-cut in being anti-magic (or anti whatever magic is supposed to be a metaphor for here - nuclear weaponry/nuclear energy is one idea that came to mind for me).

Magic is an abstract analogy for power (the ability to 'do anything', given enough magic). Becoming the Princeps is an analogy for possessing absolute power.

(An early example of a 'trivial' use of magic in Granbelm is Shingetsu's attempt to erase Mangetsu's memories. Even in its sealed state, magic granted mages at least that much power over regular humans. Magic could be said to be a fundamentally un-democratic concept in how it places mages in basically a separate realm of existence (of abilities) from other humans.)

Philosophically speaking, Granbelm is indeed very Buddhist in how it asserts/affirms human imperfection, weakness, and transience (human imperfection stands as its principal argument against allowing people to possess absolute power; but at the same time, the show affirms that people's lives, dreams and wills are meaningful -- even if they are short and end in failure).

The fundamental problem with magic as it existed prior to Granbelm would have been the arbitrary, innate nature of it. As strongly emphasized within Granbelm (the show), it is part of human nature to be weak-willed, selfish, and ignorant. If just anybody can be born with the power to walk all over other people's existences, that creates a formula for loads of senseless destruction and a highly unstable society. (Regarding how individuals with excessive power shape society, Shinsekai Yori is another series that explored this theme pretty thoroughly.)

Magiaconatus was born as a mechanism/attempt to qualify the people who wield magic. Mage candidates are automatically (forcefully) enrolled into Granbelm, and lose their magic (or get erased) once they fail it. Meanwhile, to actually win the Granbelm, you had to be selfless/virtuous enough to not even want the power.

(The thing is, as humans are fundamentally imperfect, there's no such thing as a test rigorous enough to qualify a human for wielding absolute power. In that sense, a person with Shingetsu's wish winding up the winner is a logical, obvious conclusion.)

In terms of actual alternatives to the conclusion Shingetsu ended up giving us, there are two fundamental requirements:
- The establishment of an objective qualification system for how magic gets (responsibly) distributed
- Shingetsu's abdication of absolute power

I think the first requirement is a bit difficult to resolve in the context of the dramatic climax of an anime series, although not impossible. However, either way insisting too hard on keeping magic would've also gone against Mangetsu's philosophical contribution about life still being meaningful without it, which I would say is one of the main actual strengths of the ending.

Despite all this, I have to agree that the ending is unsatisfying emotionally because of Shingetsu's practically flippant treatment of people's lives. On the one hand is Kuon, who Shingetsu simply says she'll 'remember'; and on the other you have Mangetsu, who literally sacrifices her life for Shingetsu's cause (in 'friendship'). Throughout this whole thing, Shingetsu does not shed a single tear, despite having no idea whether Mangetsu could possibly come back. Speaking ungenerously, you could say Shingetsu's lack of emotional depth makes her wish look like the detached decision of someone with autism rather than a genuine sacrifice borne of resolve. Given aspects of Shingetsu's characterization, I'm tempted to say this might even be an intended element of the writing of the show.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by alt_account

Speaking ungenerously, you could say Shingetsu's lack of emotional depth makes her wish look like the detached decision of someone with autism rather than a genuine sacrifice borne of resolve. Given aspects of Shingetsu's characterization, I'm tempted to say this might even be an intended element of the writing of the show.

I disagree about that interpretation. After Anna disappeared, Enrnesta wanted to cry, but she said she didn't have the right. That makes a lot of sense since she was the one who killed Anna in the first place, and being the kind of person who bears everything on her shoulders, Ernesta felt it would be hypocritical to cry not matter how much she wanted to.

Based on that, it's clear her emotional "detachment" in the last episode was both, out of resolve, and also her way of taking responsibility. She knew she was screwing Anna, Kuon and Mangetsu over and she felt really guilty about it, and that's exactly why she couldn't allow herself to cry.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by alt_account

Speaking ungenerously, you could say Shingetsu's lack of emotional depth makes her wish look like the detached decision of someone with autism rather than a genuine sacrifice borne of resolve. Given aspects of Shingetsu's characterization, I'm tempted to say this might even be an intended element of the writing of the show.

Autism is one way of looking at it, though I personally thought of it as childishness. Shingetsu was written to evoke this response from the start, with her introduction to Mangetsu's class and her focus on a childhood friendship with someone who clearly couldn't stand her.

This will sound like a broken record, I'm aware, but yes, I believe this was deliberate on the show's part. Shingetsu's attitude is yet more of her conditioning by Magiaconatus into the Princeps it wanted. It's no coincidence that Shingetsu's social life is limited to a magical doll and a childhood friend whose house she ran away from years ago.

This childishness is to me the source of what you term flippancy, she simply lacks the maturity to really consider things from the viewpoint of other people in anything more than an abstract fashion.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That also was on my mind. There's this one scene in one of the earlier episode where Ernesta is actually brought to tears while thinking about Anna. I honestly find it a little odd that Ernesta seemingly never even considered making a wish to recover Anna. I mean, I know Anna was't very sympathetic, but that doesn't change how Ernesta seemed to really care about her. If you really care about someone, and have a chance to save them...

I actually laughed at that part in the last episode where Anna appears and Shingetsu's like whatever.

Anna is the Frank Grimes of the series.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

I actually laughed at that part in the last episode where Anna appears and Shingetsu's like whatever.

Anna is the Frank Grimes of the series.

Plus the part where Kuon shows up and I'm like, why is this a test? Shingetsu barely spoke to her when she was alive.

[Nivek von Beldo]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Plus the part where Kuon shows up and I'm like, why is this a test? Shingetsu barely spoke to her when she was alive.

The Ernesta plot twist was so awful killed this series

[Liddo-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That also was on my mind. There's this one scene in one of the earlier episode where Ernesta is actually brought to tears while thinking about Anna. I honestly find it a little odd that Ernesta seemingly never even considered making a wish to recover Anna. I mean, I know Anna was't very sympathetic, but that doesn't change how Ernesta seemed to really care about her. If you really care about someone, and have a chance to save them...

In episode 7, it was shown Ernesta cares about DOPAMINE.. errr.. I mean Anna a lot. Why now that she has the ultimate power, she suddenly not care about helping Anna anymore? Ernesta throwing away the magic.. this to me feels similar to rich people who burn their money instead of give to the poor.

Well, thanks to Mango's anime sucking at the end I was able to have enough funds to order things from other shows that I liked.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Liddo-kun

In episode 7, it was shown Ernesta cares about DOPAMINE.. errr.. I mean Anna a lot. Why now that she has the ultimate power, she suddenly not care about helping Anna anymore? Ernesta throwing away the magic.. this to me feels similar to rich people who burn their money instead of give to the poor.

Well, thanks to Mango's anime sucking at the end I was able to have enough funds to order things from other shows that I liked.

Shingetsu would have betrayed her own beliefs if she had helped Anna. She always said she would erase magic when she became the Princeps, and that's what she did. Making an exception would have made her a hypocrite.

[Applehell]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

I actually laughed at that part in the last episode where Anna appears and Shingetsu's like whatever.

Anna is the Frank Grimes of the series.

She did she show emotional reaction tho? She quickly came to realization that was Magiaconatus talking and not Anna. The rese of sequence was the same, a last ditch effort to have Shingetsu betray everything she fought to get here and reavel the hypocritism Suishou accused her of having like all other mages who participated in Granbelm who got to point of facing her.

[Guido]

Finished the entire show on last week's Monday.

Long story short, whether was sentience or programming Magiaconatus favored Shingetsu triumphing over all the other contestants and, finally, over Suishou. In the very last stretch at the end of the journey, Ernesta was tested again, however, Mangetsu acted as a failsafe (this is personal speculation) so as the former would neither second guess nor bail out of her decision to erase magic from the face off the Earth along with the Magiaconatus.

The deal was done, and Shingetsu ended up living in a reality without magic where and when Nene and her sisters, Kibou, Kuon's sister, and Anna's family neither have recollection nor knowledge on her, magic, Granbelm, Magiaconatus, and the other girls deleted from existence.

Now as to the last shot that wraps this show's season finale...
The unseen, transfer student is nobody special or particular but rather the unnamed character is used as a metaphor for the endless possibilities that Ernesta can allow herself to experience now that she lives as an ordinary, high-school girl in a new world devoid of magic.

[Kanon]

Shingetsu doesn't live as an ordinary high school girl. She's pretty much a ghost.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Shingetsu doesn't live as an ordinary high school girl. She's pretty much a ghost.

I wonder about that. Sure Magiaconatus (in the form of Suishou) told her she would end up that way, but it could have been just a test. We don't really know either way.

[Archon_Wing]

In about a few months people will have forgot this show ever existed. But maybe someone will remember something existed and people did things.....

Maybe they were getting at that. Nah.

Also doesn't anyone find it messed up that Shisui basically caused her sister to be deleted?

[felix]

This show was really good. Loved how it was a great magic, mecha and fight show. But in the end was best in the story department.

I wonder how many people didnt give it a try because it looks very goofy in the first episode; albeit its' hard for the the chibi mecha not to look goofy.