Psycho-Pass - Episode 19 Discussion / Poll

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

1) I think the brains were meant to disturb the viewer, but I doubt Gen is aiming for any viewer to judge Sibyl purely on the basis of "Eeewwww... brains!" On the whole, the fact it's 250 brains doesn't bother people as much as the fact it's 250 people like Makishima. If these people still maintained their bodies, and just met in a matrix somewhere from time-to-time, it wouldn't have a major impact on my view of Sibyl.

2) Roger is right on a practical basis, which does question how long Sibyl would even work. A smart gang, or a small army, would be enough to take down Sibyl. Personally, I largely chalk this up to Sibyl complacency. And maybe that's part of Gen's point - Very authoritarian states will eventually achieve what they want, and then grow complacent, and then eventually a Makishima rises and... Perhaps it's an added argument against authoritarian states.

First of all, I would like to make this disclaimer that just because I do not wholly agree, does not mean I wholly disagree.

1) Your assertion that the brains are bad news isn't incorrect per se, but we have no confirmation that every single one of those 250 are like Makishima. We don't actually know this. Here is what we do know:
a) The Sibyl system consists of 250-odd human brains.
b) The Sibyl system seeks to expand itself specifically with brains of people whose thinking deviates from the norm.
c) People who can't be judged by Sibyl are people whose thinking deviates from the norm.
d) One guy who was a mass murderer is a member of the system.
e) The system has their eye on another guy who may or may not be a mass murderer but for all intents and purposes can be treated as such.

These facts, in and of themselves aren't concrete proof that every single brain is like Makishima. Of course, I cannot say "You can't prove that every brain is like Makishima, therefore they aren't." either. They either all are, or not all of them are.

2) I'm not bringing Sibyl's overconfidence into question here, but they are not actually dumb, and they are not actually defenseless. Their entire system is dependant on some valid assumptions:
a) Anyone who even thinks of taking out the Sibyl system would be caught.
b) Should they be unjudgeable, they still wouldn't attempt it since public knowledge holds that the system is decentralized.
c) Should someone figure it out, they would not know where to find it.
d) Should someone find its location, there is no way a single person, immune to Sibyl or otherwise, could approach the system under normal circumstances.

Just because the defenses aren't material doesn't make them any less of a defense. There also seems this weird assumption floating around (correct me if I'm wrong though), that since one person (who wasn't even Makishima) figured it out, anyone can figure it out.

Again, the existence of Choe Gui-Seung (sp?) is an oversight made by Sibyl, and maybe they should have known better for all their processing power, but one tiny flaw does not suddenly make them retarded.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So yes, I agree that the main focus shouldn't be on if Sibyl "works" or not, but rather on if Sybil is desirable or not.

That's pretty much it on the nose.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

1) I think the brains were meant to disturb the viewer, but I doubt Gen is aiming for any viewer to judge Sibyl purely on the basis of "Eeewwww... brains!" On the whole, the fact it's 250 brains doesn't bother people as much as the fact it's 250 people like Makishima. If these people still maintained their bodies, and just met in a matrix somewhere from time-to-time, it wouldn't have a major impact on my view of Sibyl.

True enough. But the problem is that the conceptual problem of people running the Sibyl System is overridden by the visceral reaction of "Ick, gross!" A properly presented statement shouldn't go around with such muddled imagery.

Originally Posted by felix

For the record, the entire Sybil situation we have currently could be considered a writers block. As in, its all an excuse to get Ko to run after Makshima.

I don't think so. The show has hammered the "the Sibyl System is supposed to be perfect, but it's actually flawed" message in almost every episode. That's why this whole Makishima-chasing plot doesn't work - it distracts from the far more intriguing questions of whether to keep the Sibyl System, and how to dispose of it, etc. So far, the most insightful statement made on this issue was made by Kagari, and that's pretty disgraceful.

Originally Posted by Dengar

These facts, in and of themselves aren't concrete proof that every single brain is like Makishima. Of course, I cannot say "You can't prove that every brain is like Makishima, therefore they aren't." either. They either all are, or not all of them are.

When the only representative of the Sibyl System and the only potential recruit share similar characteristics, it's natural to draw a conclusion from that. As the system works by group consensus, that conclusion gets further strengthened.

It's likely that not every mind in the Sibyl System is made up of sociopaths, but Makishima's way of thinking can be considered representative of the consensus, so it's a bit of a moot point.

Originally Posted by Dengar

Again, the existence of Choe Gui-Seung (sp?) is an oversight made by Sibyl, and maybe they should have known better for all their processing power, but one tiny flaw does not suddenly make them retarded.

The big problem with the group consensus is that it operates on the assumption that the system is perfect even though they know this to be untrue.

Speaking of Choe Gui-Sung, why couldn't he be the main antagonist instead? He's a lot more interesting than Makishima.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

It's likely that not every mind in the Sibyl System is made up of sociopaths, but Makishima's way of thinking can be considered representative of the consensus, so it's a bit of a moot point.

It isn't to me though. If not all of those 250 brains are Makishima clones, that opens up the possibility of Sibyl being different now from when it was first created. It also opens up the possibility that the system is not unanimous about everything all the time.

[felix]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I don't think so. The show has hammered the "the Sibyl System is supposed to be perfect, but it's actually flawed" message in almost every episode. That's why this whole Makishima-chasing plot doesn't work - it distracts from the far more intriguing questions of whether to keep the Sibyl System, and how to dispose of it, etc. So far, the most insightful statement made on this issue was made by Kagari, and that's pretty disgraceful.

So you say you disagreed with my point, yet prove my point in the very next sentence.

You're all forgetting that the series started with Ko and Makshima (literally), so the series focusing on Sybil is actually not true. Sybil being all the fuss on these boards is not relevant. It's always been crazed dog vs watch dog, at best, with Sybil only being there for the sake of the parallel existing, since just claiming one to be just and one to be not, fell out of fashion years ago. Personally I had hoped Akane would have been the main character, but it's pretty obvious at this point that Ko is actually the only main character* (from both the episodes, plot, opening, etc), albeit the storytelling makes it weird since it focuses on him from this weird third person angle all the time—is he suppose to be a "surprise main character"?.

* Akane so far got only slightly more story then any of the other (more clear) side characters, and her bigger spotlight tan can be attributed to her attribute of being a door knob for the viewier into the world and setting, more so then her importance as a character which if her presence in the current arc is any indication is as great as all the other side characters

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

When the only representative of the Sibyl System and the only potential recruit share similar characteristics, it's natural to draw a conclusion from that. As the system works by group consensus, that conclusion gets further strengthened.

It's likely that not every mind in the Sibyl System is made up of sociopaths, but Makishima's way of thinking can be considered representative of the consensus, so it's a bit of a moot point.

Not really. The chief in this episode is even quoted saying "I can't understand in my current capacity" and went back to the system to understand the decisions. It is a collective entity, but they are by no means all individually on the same page. It's for this very reason that they seem to be seeking new individuals to add to the system to expand its thought capacity.

If the collective was like Makishima, they wouldn't want him. They want him because they don't understand him. That's the key here.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

If the collective was like Makishima, they wouldn't want him. They want him because they don't understand him. That's the key here.

That's probably it! What does an intellectual do when they're bored? They try to learn something new. And what does an intellectual do when they don't understand something? They get frustrated, and possibly obsessed with figuring it out.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Dengar

It isn't to me though. If not all of those 250 brains are Makishima clones, that opens up the possibility of Sibyl being different now from when it was first created.

We know that the Sibyl System was made up of idiosynchratic minds at its inception, and that the end result is a group consensus thinks similarly to Makishima. While it's possible that this is the result of adding individuals over time, the natural conclusion is that it's always been like this. I'm not sure what difference this makes though.

Originally Posted by Dengar

It also opens up the possibility that the system is not unanimous about everything all the time.

We already know that it's about group consensus, not unanimity. The chief even double-checked to confirm whether the decision at the end of episode 19 (presumably to use Akane) was the consensus.

Originally Posted by felix

So you say you disagreed with my point, yet prove my point in the very next sentence.

You're all forgetting that the series started with Ko and Makshima (literally), so the series focusing on Sybil is actually not true. Sybil being all the fuss on these boards is not relevant. It's always been crazed dog vs watch dog, at best, with Sybil only being there for the sake of the parallel existing, since just claiming one to be just and one to be not, fell out of fashion years ago. Personally I had hoped Akane would have been the main character, but it's pretty obvious at this point that Ko is actually the only main character* (from both the episodes, plot, opening, etc), albeit the storytelling makes it weird since it focuses on him from this weird third person angle all the time—is he suppose to be a "surprise main character"?

If the series wasn't about the Sibyl System, then its flaws wouldn't have been hammered home in every episode. Makishima's importance, insofar as the show is concerned, is just to act as a catalyst for examining those flaws.

You can blame poor writing if Makishima's role is unclear.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Not really. The chief in this episode is even quoted saying "I can't understand in my current capacity" and went back to the system to understand the decisions. It is a collective entity, but they are by no means all individually on the same page. It's for this very reason that they seem to be seeking new individuals to add to the system to expand its thought capacity.

If the collective was like Makishima, they wouldn't want him. They want him because they don't understand him. That's the key here.

If not Makishima, then Touma. The difference is academic given how little characterization we've actually received about the former.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by felix

Personally I had hoped Akane would have been the main character, but it's pretty obvious at this point that Ko is actually the only main character* (from both the episodes, plot, opening, etc), albeit the storytelling makes it weird since it focuses on him from this weird third person angle all the time—is he suppose to be a "surprise main character"?

The opening sequence and so forth do make it seem as if Kougami is the main character, but when I think about it, Akane is much more suitable as the main character. She's the one whose story we've been following from the start, and the one we've seen go through character development. She is following much more of the "main character" pattern, and she gets loads of screen time. Kougami has been more of a static character. He's definitely very important, but I think the OP and promotional materials may actually be misleading. I'd place him and Akane as about the same level, as joint main characters.

And the manga adaptation of Psycho-Pass is actually titled "Inspector Akane Tsunemori".

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

If not Makishima, then Touma. The difference is academic given how little characterization we've actually received about the former.

They sent out Touma in the first place because they thought he would be the one who could most easily communicate with Makishima. This would then imply that the collective isn't really like Touma, else why did they use him? Why did they put him in the system to begin with? If the individual doesn't expand the system, what motivation does Sibyl have for including them in?

Of course I cannot prove what the other individuals are like, but I think there's enough evidence to conclude that each individual in the system is an asset to it. Each individual is unique enough to provide further expansion of thought. That's how this collective grows and gets closer to perfection.

[Dengar]

Re: Who is the main character?

I would like to point out that the main character and the viewpoint character do not have to be one and the same.

[Chiaki_chan]

manga : Akane and Anime: Kogami I think

[felix]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

And the manga adaptation of Psycho-Pass is actually titled "Inspector Akane Tsunemori".

Thanks for the heads up!

*goes to search for manga*

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

They sent out Touma in the first place because they thought he would be the one who could most easily communicate with Makishima. This would then imply that the collective isn't really like Touma, else why did they use him?

They sent Touma because he and Makishima were friends. The Sibyl System is made out to be almost completely interchangeable (the brain swapping visually reinforces this), so there's going to be a fair bit of similarity between the people in it.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Why did they put him in the system to begin with? If the individual doesn't expand the system, what motivation does Sibyl have for including them in?

I don't know if there are any adequate answers to this given that I don't think this was a very well thought out part of the story beyond the shock value.

The way a group consensus functions ensures that a single individual that thinks differently from the rest isn't going to make all that much difference. Indeed, a significantly unique individual is only going to be a nail that sticks out. I'd venture that anybody immune from the Psycho-Pass scan is going to be highly valued.

Originally Posted by Dengar

Re: Who is the main character?

I would like to point out that the main character and the viewpoint character do not have to be one and the same.

Akane is both the viewpoint character and the protagonist. Kougami's role in the story is strictly related to Makishima, and he doesn't contribute very much otherwise to the larger questions of the Sibyl System. Episode 19 puts Akane in a good position to make judgments on those questions in the finale.

[felix]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

If the series wasn't about the Sibyl System, then its flaws wouldn't have been hammered home in every episode. Makishima's importance, insofar as the show is concerned, is just to act as a catalyst for examining those flaws.

Writing 101: your readers are immune to "being told what to think" so if you want to make an object in the story have some significance then you need to have everything else around that object give it significance.

In other words precisely because Sybil has such literal plot is why I fail to see how it's anything more then a mirror for all the other characters. Does anyone here care for the Sybil characters? does anyone even see them as characters? Sybil may have philosophical meaning, but it doesn't have story weight; replace it with any other system and the story wouldn't change. (I think you all have just been talking about it for a little too long, and somehow see it as more important then it is.)

[Chiaki_chan]

I saw four chapters and chapters though there are some unusual Scene the chapter like episodes of the anime ...

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by felix

Writing 101: your readers are immune to "being told what to think" so if you want to make an object in the story have some significance then you need to have everything else around that object give it significance.

Hey, tell Urobochi that, not me!

To be fair to Urobochi, the Sibyl System is harped on in every single episode, and it's the subject of almost every significant conversation in the show.

Originally Posted by felix

In other words precisely because Sybil has such literal plot is why I fail to see how it's anything more then a mirror for all the other characters. Does anyone here care for the Sybil characters? does anyone even see them as characters?

No and no. However, Psycho-Pass is trying to be a cyberpunk story, and such stories tend to use faceless systems as the main antagonist.

Originally Posted by felix

Sybil may have philosophical meaning, but it doesn't have story weight; replace it with any other system and the story wouldn't change. (I think you all have just been talking about it for a little too long, and somehow see it as more important then it is.)

Everything in the show is predicated by the Sibyl System working the way it's depicted. Change the details of the system, and the show doesn't work. For starters, there wouldn't be any Inspectors and Enforcers.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by felix

Writing 101: your readers are immune to "being told what to think" so if you want to make an object in the story have some significance then you need to have everything else around that object give it significance.

In other words precisely because Sybil has such literal plot is why I fail to see how it's anything more then a mirror for all the other characters. Does anyone here care for the Sybil characters? does anyone even see them as characters? Sybil may have philosophical meaning, but it doesn't have story weight; replace it with any other system and the story wouldn't change. (I think you all have just been talking about it for a little too long, and somehow see it as more important then it is.)

Sybil is the only reason serial killers are able to run rampant. One system was delegated the duty of guilty or innocence, and with no oversight it means people who exploit it was able to kill in broad daylight.

There is nothing special about serial killers. Every nation has to deal with them on a regular basis. The fact that Sybil is unable to take care of them efficiently is proof that it doesn't work. This show is not about a serial killer who reads a lot. This show is about the population coming to terms that their government's perfection is a lie.

[Mad Pierrot]

Originally Posted by Chiaki_chan

manga : Akane and Anime: Kogami I think

It's ironic that while the manga is titled Inspector Akane Tsunemori Kogami stole the cover from the first volume.



Within the show Akane is the most relatable character due to her being the new while Kogami is the who undergoes even more changes than Akane. I like it more when the two are Mulder and Skully.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I don't know if there are any adequate answers to this given that I don't think this was a very well thought out part of the story beyond the shock value.

The way a group consensus functions ensures that a single individual that thinks differently from the rest isn't going to make all that much difference. Indeed, a significantly unique individual is only going to be a nail that sticks out. I'd venture that anybody immune from the Psycho-Pass scan is going to be highly valued.

That's why a difference in interpretation can matter so much. If I were to follow your interpretation of the events on screen, then the writing starts to look bad. It also reflects badly on the setting construction in general. Usually the goal of a dystopia in literature is to illustrate some negative aspect of our society, that if taken too far could spell immense troubles. But there has to be a believable reason for why things could get that bad as well.

So far the Sibyl System has been presented as a logical system. It does administer justice rather effectively and it catches criminals. If the system is just filled with a bunch of sociopaths like Touma, this would seem contradictory to this very notion. Maybe it is, and if it is, Gen made a blunder here in my opinion. Yet, there is still no direct and explicit proof that the system is like that.

It makes perfect sense to me that this system is merely a collective consciousness seeking to expand its thought processes. Only through adopting the people it cannot reasonably understand, can it begin to comprehend everything about human nature. Of course this is only my interpretation so far as it is not contradicted by Gen's writing, but it does seem to fit in rather neatly in the story compared to yours which just breaks it. Don't mind me if I prefer the way I see it.

[Triple_R]

In fairness to 4Train, I definitely see his point here...

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I don't think so. The show has hammered the "the Sibyl System is supposed to be perfect, but it's actually flawed" message in almost every episode. That's why this whole Makishima-chasing plot doesn't work - it distracts from the far more intriguing questions of whether to keep the Sibyl System, and how to dispose of it, etc.

Psycho-Pass basically has two major subplots that combine together to form the plot of the show.

Subplot 1 - "The Sibyl story". The 1984, Brave New World, Soylent Green, etc... side of the story. The story about a dystopia that looks like an utopia. What social commentary can be gleaned from this? What themes can be taken from this?

Subplot 2 - Kougami vs. Makishima, the passionate feud and battle.


Up until recently, I think that Psycho-Pass did a good job of weaving these two subplots together into a nice, coherent whole. But Ko's all-encompassing desire for revenge on Makishima, and the story now focusing a lot on that, has started to distract a bit from the larger Sibyl story.

Imagine watching a fictional movie based on the Fall of Rome. Just as Rome is burning, we shift focus to a Roman Gladiator and his personal vendetta against the anti-Rome revolutionary that killed his friend. The Roman Gladiator appears entirely unconcerned with the anti-Rome revolutionary's cause, in spite of how the Roman Gladiator himself was victimized by the societal systems of Rome.

It makes the story seem a bit... smaller, in a way.

Don't get me wrong - I still love Psycho-Pass. But I honestly hope that "The Sibyl story" starts reasserting itself. I certainly don't mind 1984 with a side-order of Die Hard; that's a good way to spice up a cyberpunk dystopian story, actually. But having Die Hard with a side-order of 1984 just feels weird. One man's quest to avenge his friend probably shouldn't be the main focus when there's Big Sister Sybil to deal with.