Gurren-Lagann - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[Vexx]

<shrug> there's such a disconnect between Yoko's final realized looks and personality and that published preliminary age that many people are naturally saying "yipes?" or "wth?" --- its just easier to call "bs" on what was a preproduction thought. Preproduction work, trailers, and previews are just that: preliminary. Now *Nia* I can believe is the same age as Simon ... but we'll see if Simon can buff up, mature, and become someone worthy of Yoko
Perhaps Nia is a catalyst in that regard. ... agreed, the show isn't specifically a "romance" series, but it *is* a coming-of-age story. That often involves some romance (thinks of dozens of such tales).

[outlaw97]

So I just showed my friend this episode, and...got a reaction I wasn't expecting. He thought this was the ultimate example of shooting yourselves in the foot, and to that end he genuinely did not like the episode. To quote him:

"What reason is there to watch this show now? No matter how you rationalize it, they made a great character, then kill him off simply because, 'You're Gainax and you can do it'. Had he stayed alive for at least half the show, his death would have had an even greater impact, so right now, it's just a way of whoring for attention - at the expense of what kept your viewers watching for the past seven episodes. I'm definitely not recommending this series to my friends now."

I am honestly surprised by this reaction - I can sympathize with it, as I think 98% of us wouldn't have minded Kamina sticking around. At the same time, we all knew Kamina was essentially a one dimensional character, and while he wouldn't wear thin on us, he'd just become something we expect, rather than look forward to.

I'm with my friend in that Simon doesn't interest me yet - the knee jerk reaction is that they'll turn his relationship into a Eureka Seven. But unlike him, I'm open to see what they'll do.

A long shadow to crawl out of indeed...

[Darknemo2000]

To tell the't like Yoko/ truth though poeple dont like Yoko/Simon pairing, Kamina/Yoko pairing was a true fail. Thats probably one of the most non-dynamic (despite the activity of both characters) pairing that I have seen.

The pairing really sucked the great time and was a true fail. i hope they dont make Yoko a surrogate mother for Simon now, something like Misato was for Shinji. I would really like to see something of Yoko/Simon in a relationship since I can feel another stupid one-dimentional pairing (Nia/Simon) comming.

GAINAX trully shitted themselves with coouples and relationships in this particular anime. At least for now. If we will see Nia/simon then I could lebel it as a one of the worser relationships wise anime's of this season (mind you that I am saying relationship and not character-wise, though I find Kamina plain and boring character).

[Vexx]

I can follow your friend's reasoning .... If I were scripting an epic tragi-heroic story, I'd have expected Kamina to last til the midpoint in terms of story development. So you have to wonder what they have in mind. I'm trying to look at it like a Three Act Play though... you'd have to call this a bloody serious end to Act One. This is still unusual because Act Two is usually where the trauma and trial happen (Obiwan bites it, Things look bleak for the Fellowship, etc) --- so what have they got in mind for Act Two (if they haven't just shot themselves in the foot).

Looking at the person we presume to be a Simon v2.0 at the series "flashforward" sequence... there's a *lot* of work to do.

Originally Posted by outlaw97

So I just showed my friend this episode, and...got a reaction I wasn't expecting. He thought this was the ultimate example of shooting yourselves in the foot, and to that end he genuinely did not like the episode. To quote him:

"What reason is there to watch this show now? No matter how you rationalize it, they made a great character, then kill him off simply because, 'You're Gainax and you can do it'. Had he stayed alive for at least half the show, his death would have had an even greater impact, so right now, it's just a way of whoring for attention - at the expense of what kept your viewers watching for the past seven episodes. I'm definitely not recommending this series to my friends now."

I am honestly surprised by this reaction - I can sympathize with it, as I think 98% of us wouldn't have minded Kamina sticking around. At the same time, we all knew Kamina was essentially a one dimensional character, and while he wouldn't wear thin on us, he'd just become something we expect, rather than look forward to.

I'm with my friend in that Simon doesn't interest me yet - the knee jerk reaction is that they'll turn his relationship into a Eureka Seven. But unlike him, I'm open to see what they'll do.

A long shadow to crawl out of indeed...

[EphemeralDream]

Originally Posted by Vexx

I can follow your friend's reasoning .... If I were scripting an epic tragi-heroic story, I'd have expected Kamina to last til the midpoint in terms of story development. So you have to wonder what they have in mind. I'm trying to look at it like a Three Act Play though... you'd have to call this a bloody serious end to Act One. This is still unusual because Act Two is usually where the trauma and trial happen (Obiwan bites it, Things look bleak for the Fellowship, etc) --- so what have they got in mind for Act Two (if they haven't just shot themselves in the foot).

Looking at the person we presume to be a Simon v2.0 at the series "flashforward" sequence... there's a *lot* of work to do.

The King is dead and Macbeth is the Thane of Cawdor at this point in the story

[Kyuusai]

Originally Posted by Vexx

I can follow your friend's reasoning .... If I were scripting an epic tragi-heroic story, I'd have expected Kamina to last til the midpoint in terms of story development. So you have to wonder what they have in mind. I'm trying to look at it like a Three Act Play though... you'd have to call this a bloody serious end to Act One. This is still unusual because Act Two is usually where the trauma and trial happen (Obiwan bites it, Things look bleak for the Fellowship, etc) --- so what have they got in mind for Act Two (if they haven't just shot themselves in the foot).

My cries of "too early!" were not a lone voice in the wilderness.

I think you found a good comparison in Star Wars, although I'm comparing it on a different scale.

In both of the Star Wars trilogies, when we look at each movie as an act of a larger whole, the mentor figure dies in the first of the three acts, and looking at the individual acts within the films, the death occurred closer to the end of the second act (give or take, let's not be picky ).

If we consider that Gurren Lagann is 26 episodes, it's quite likely that it's divided into two or three larger arcs, which puts Kamina's death... right on time.

[tacobueno]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

To tell the't like Yoko/ truth though poeple dont like Yoko/Simon pairing, Kamina/Yoko pairing was a true fail. Thats probably one of the most non-dynamic (despite the activity of both characters) pairing that I have seen.

The pairing really sucked the great time and was a true fail. i hope they dont make Yoko a surrogate mother for Simon now, something like Misato was for Shinji. I would really like to see something of Yoko/Simon in a relationship since I can feel another stupid one-dimentional pairing (Nia/Simon) comming.

GAINAX trully shitted themselves with coouples and relationships in this particular anime. At least for now. If we will see Nia/simon then I could lebel it as a one of the worser relationships wise anime's of this season (mind you that I am saying relationship and not character-wise, though I find Kamina plain and boring character).

okay then... and you've lept through time into the future and confirmed for yourself that this new Nia chick they are going to introduce is this "one-dimensional" thing of which you speak? Rating this ACTION show based off of how acceptable the pairings are to you is how I would classify "fail". Refer to a previous post in here about the preproduction age listings, its either complete BS they are the same age or Simon is actually a midget. I have a feeling as though you probably wont be satisfied with how this shows going to progress so best of luck to you.

[nubby]

Yoko and Simon are 14? I can go with that. Girls usually grow faster than boys, especially early teens. boys grow around 16-18. I remember 8-9th grade where most of the girls were taller than boys and had nice bodies while the guys look like Simon lol


So Kamina's only battle without Simon results in his own death...it just goes to show how Kamina is all talk. People like to think that Simon is nothing without Kamina but I also think Kamina is nothing without Simon.


Also, I think a Simon-Yoko pairing is a no no. Not because it's illogical, but because it'll be more of a sympathetic relationship. Nia comes in at a good time. Now Simon can leave Yoko behind, get with Nia, and make Yoko feel what Simon felt. Kyyyaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!

[OMG_Zerg_Rush]

I'm having trouble getting sad over Kaminas death dispite the fact he was one of my favourite characters this season. His last charge was just well...cool
________
Wife Fuck Tube

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by nubby

So Kamina's only battle without Simon results in his own death...it just goes to show how Kamina is all talk. People like to think that Simon is nothing without Kamina but I also think Kamina is nothing without Simon.

Kamina is certainly NOT all talk. The only people who claim Simon is nothing are some of the viewers, Kamina himself certainly never looked down on his best friend. In fact, he made it clear in an earlier episode that Simon is the person who kept him alive up to that point, being his voice of reason.

[X_Danny_X]

Originally Posted by Vexx

They can call her "14" til the Sun freezes... its still a bunch of baloney. The only age references are a "wiki" (apply salt) and an early character design note. The content of the series shows two people of roughly the same age (Kamina and Yoko) and Simon being younger. She talks, walks, and acts several years older than Simon. Now if Simon amps himself up (Keitaro 2.0), then a couple of years difference won't matter so much. The two of them have a lot of grief to work through before I'd find some connection between Yoko and Simon viable though. Perhaps incoming Nia awakens something (triangle competition time?).

@X_Danny_X: tastes differ? People find different things attractive? Big boobs don't automatically make for beauty? Insulting people for liking different types of women won't get you very far.

from the people who can read japanese, in the main site they said that it mentions Yoko is 14 even though it is hard to believe. heck i dont know any 14 year olds so well developed in all areas and has a body of a woman. Heck, i dont believe it myself yet.

since when i like Yoko for her boobs? are you forgetting the rest of her body? she looks and has the figure of a model that is full adult. almost every guy who is into the show fell instantly for her. heck there is already doujins out on her already.

different tastes yes, and sorry im not insulting, im telling it like it is. lolicon basically has very young girls that are in their early teens who basically haven't hit puberty. Generally having and targeting much older male fanbase. if lolicon reference to girls that were much older and still had that kind of body, then i wouldnt have a problem with it, or if the guys being targetted were the same age as the girls.


with that said, i will continue fantasying about Yoko

[orion]

Well, we should probably just wait until the official ages are posted because right now no numeric age values for any of the 3 characters are posted on the official websites in the character sections.

Originally Posted by Vexx

<shrug> there's such a disconnect between Yoko's final realized looks and personality and that published preliminary age that many people are naturally saying "yipes?" or "wth?" --- its just easier to call "bs" on what was a preproduction thought. Preproduction work, trailers, and previews are just that: preliminary. Now *Nia* I can believe is the same age as Simon ... but we'll see if Simon can buff up, mature, and become someone worthy of Yoko
Perhaps Nia is a catalyst in that regard. ... agreed, the show isn't specifically a "romance" series, but it *is* a coming-of-age story. That often involves some romance (thinks of dozens of such tales).

Lesson #1: Don't kiss any girls or Gainax will kill you off. Become Captain Harlock and...

Spoiler:

... the girls will die instead.

[aohige]

Ok, this age thing is getting out of hand.

If you guys are referring to the official page's this description under Yoko...
「同年代のシモンと比べて～」

同年代 does not equal to "same age".

It means "same age group". It's a smaller, narrower subset of ages than 同世代, which means "same generation".
In other words, 同年代 refers to same age group in diffrence of give or take 2 years or so.
(同世代, same generation, usually goes in approximate groups of tens, such as teens, 20s, 30s, etc)


That being said, I personally, do not give a rat's ASS what age an animated character is.
She could be 10 for all I care.

[quina]

Originally Posted by aohige

Ok, this age thing is getting out of hand.

If you guys are referring to the official page's this description under Yoko...
「同年代のシモンと比べて～」

同年代 does not equal to "same age".

It means "same age group". It's a smaller, narrower subset of ages than 同世代, which means "same generation".
In other words, 同年代 refers to same age group in diffrence of give or take 2 years or so.
(同世代, same generation, usually goes in approximate groups of tens, such as teens, 20s, 30s, etc)


That being said, I personally, do not give a rat's ASS what age an animated character is.
She could be 10 for all I care.

T_T I gonna love you~ at last someone agree with me...

quoting myself...

Originally Posted by quina

During character design stage:
The age announced was Shimon 14, Kamina 17, Yoko 14. Nia still in progress

After the series aired:
All age are not yet announced. Only that Shimon and Yoko are around the same age.

Japanese Wiki's claim 14 y/o was taken from before the series is aired (design stage). Nia's age probably be the same as Shimon. They might have decide to shift stuffs around, but doesn't really matter to me anyway.

[Darkside]

kamina nuuuuuu!!!!

I kinda felt it coming after the last ep and even more after that kiss. But then when he didn't die intiially and fought back with simoun in the guren lagann, i thought he'd make it through :'(

today is a sad..sad..day..


edit: And holy crap i dont even remember that part in the beginning of ep 1. I feel a bit reassured now knowing that simoun becomes a badass later in his life ^^

[Scep]

It's a wierd feeling. Knowing the person is going to die, seeing his last battle, and looking at him win, yet knowing he will lose...


But i still think kamina died too early on in the show.

[orion]

Originally Posted by aohige

Ok, this age thing is getting out of hand.

If you guys are referring to the official page's this description under Yoko...
「同年代のシモンと比べて～」

同年代 does not equal to "same age".

It means "same age group". It's a smaller, narrower subset of ages than 同世代, which means "same generation".
In other words, 同年代 refers to same age group in diffrence of give or take 2 years or so.
(同世代, same generation, usually goes in approximate groups of tens, such as teens, 20s, 30s, etc)


That being said, I personally, do not give a rat's ASS what age an animated character is.
She could be 10 for all I care.

Unfortunately, age does matter with Yoko because of the fanboyism she attracted.

Apparently even if Yoko was as young as 8 or as old as 16, the poor person fantasizing about Yoko is labeled a lolicon. (Wow, didn't know that it extended to age 16. )

In this aspect, Gainax has dug itself a big marketing hole (title would have a bad rep), especially in R1. It's prob best that the actual numbers never get stated imo. That way everbody can have their cheesecake and eat it too.

[Anh_Minh]

Funny, it's usually the other way. Yoko just isn't credible as an agemate for Simon.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Funny, it's usually the other way. Yoko just isn't credible as an agemate for Simon.

Only if you haven't crossed over to the dark side.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by X_Danny_X

from the people who can read japanese, in the main site they said that it mentions Yoko is 14 even though it is hard to believe. heck i dont know any 14 year olds so well developed in all areas and has a body of a woman. Heck, i dont believe it myself yet.

since when i like Yoko for her boobs? are you forgetting the rest of her body? she looks and has the figure of a model that is full adult. almost every guy who is into the show fell instantly for her. heck there is already doujins out on her already.

different tastes yes, and sorry im not insulting, im telling it like it is. lolicon basically has very young girls that are in their early teens who basically haven't hit puberty. Generally having and targeting much older male fanbase. if lolicon reference to girls that were much older and still had that kind of body, then i wouldnt have a problem with it, or if the guys being targetted were the same age as the girls.


with that said, i will continue fantasying about Yoko

1) See Aohige's post and quina's followup. And yes, I do read japanese... ... there's ambiguity about their ages, probably on purpose.

2) I was not referring to Yoko specifically, yes she is very attractive both in looks and personality. I was referring to your insult towards people who liked waifish women. You're not "telling it like it is", you're making a negative value judgement about people who find other types of women attractive.
"dont get why dudes like non breasted toothpick looking type girls unless they have some little pedo in them if they are adults." is an insult.

You're using some terms not in their accepted usage:
1) "puberty" extends down to age 11 or 12 and doesn't necessarily include getting a figure, boobs, or hips. A girl who has entered puberty is capable of getting pregnant.
2) "lolicon" is a murky term that doesn't have a single meaning. It can refer to fashion, to a waifish type of figure, or in a "lolita" sense to being attracted to post-pubescent girls typically from ages 12-16 (usually waifish). Some people use it to refer to having warm cuddly feelings ("moe") for younger girls but there's some disagreement over that and whether it has a sexual or a protective sense about it. And yes... true and/or fantasy pedophiles (those attracted to girls under 11/pre-pubescent) slip in under the tent as part of the mix but they're not the total mix.