Tate no Yuusha/Shield Hero - Episode 19 Discussion / Poll

[Kairin]

Welcome to the discussion thread for Tate no Yuusha/Shield Hero, Episode 19.

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[Ichinotachi]

And here we are with the battle against the church, the highlight of the episode was Naofumi showing the other 3 dumb heroes the reality of the situation and the consequences of what they did in the past, it is nice to see how he was the better man here and wanted to fight with them after that to defeat the church.

The only problem I have with this arc is the lack of impact due to how fast they're adapting this, is not bad at all but not the best either. At least next episode should be the end of this arc judging by the title.

[BWTraveller]

One thing I'll say since I know people will probably be complaining, I for one do not see this as the author making a bunch of worthless heroes to make the main character look better than he is. Rather, it seems more a critique of "heroes" in general, how convenient things are for heroes in other stories that they don't really need to follow through and think about the deeper consequences of their actions. The other three view themselves as absolute heroes, even after the dressing down. Rather than taking things to heart when he says they're no better than the Pope, they just stand up and say "at last all four of us fight together". Accept the reprimand and continue heroing. I'm pretty sure this really is what you'd get from most gamers if you suddenly made them heroes, fools who think that any mistake is to be shrugged off and pushed past, and that everyone else is basically an NPC there to tell him what to do or where he could have done better. Either that or cowards who can't step out the castle door in fear of fighting something that's not made of pixels on a screen. True, if you tell a story that has the hero dealing with horrible jerks he's going to look better by comparison, but that doesn't mean the intent wasn't to rip at the failings of the jerks.

Also, I'm pretty sure when Raphtalia was written saying that everything Motoyasu says is hollow that this was a mistranslation. I'm pretty sure she actually said something to the effect of "he sure seems to be enjoying himself". Basically instead of being furious and worried over the extreme threat they're suddenly faced with he just thinks "cool, boss battle!"

[FlareKnight]

I'd say it is a situation with 4 equally stupid heroes. Despite getting the chance to say what he wants, Naofumi isn't much better than any of them. It is only the threat of death from the Filolial Queen that is pushing him to cooperate with them on any level. He conveniently forgets his own mistakes, his tapping into slavery, or the harm he's inflicted upon his own party members by using a cursed shield.

They are all idiots. Every single one of them. They've all screwed up either as people or in terms of their position as heroes. That they spend a critical period where they could have gone on the offense arguing is a perfect reflection of that. One of them gets the benefit of being the main character and thus doesn't get called out for it. But they are all on similar footings. Although the spear guy is probably the biggest idiot out of all of them.

Not that the villain isn't any worse here. I don't think this guy has a remotely coherent plan. Great you've wiped out the 4 heroes...now what are you going to do about those waves of annihilation? Maybe he just figures carrying a huge group of people around and hoping not to get overwhelmed or out maneuvered will let things work out fine. His firepower can't even easily overwhelm Naofumi's defense. Good luck if anything coming is tougher than the Shield.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

I'd say it is a situation with 4 equally stupid heroes. Despite getting the chance to say what he wants, Naofumi isn't much better than any of them. It is only the threat of death from the Filolial Queen that is pushing him to cooperate with them on any level. He conveniently forgets his own mistakes, his tapping into slavery, or the harm he's inflicted upon his own party members by using a cursed shield.

They are all idiots. Every single one of them. They've all screwed up either as people or in terms of their position as heroes. That they spend a critical period where they could have gone on the offense arguing is a perfect reflection of that. One of them gets the benefit of being the main character and thus doesn't get called out for it. But they are all on similar footings. Although the spear guy is probably the biggest idiot out of all of them.

Not that the villain isn't any worse here. I don't think this guy has a remotely coherent plan. Great you've wiped out the 4 heroes...now what are you going to do about those waves of annihilation? Maybe he just figures carrying a huge group of people around and hoping not to get overwhelmed or out maneuvered will let things work out fine. His firepower can't even easily overwhelm Naofumi's defense. Good luck if anything coming is tougher than the Shield.

We'll just have to disagree here. Naofumi doesn't seem to me to be portrayed as just "disregarding" the damage he's caused the others, for one thing; in fact he worried about that on a few occasions and was beside himself when Raphtalia was injured by his actions. He recognized his mistakes and dealt with them over time. He didn't realize that his conflict with the others was pretty much guaranteed to spell doom for the world, and when it was spelled out to him he agreed to do his best; not to mention that his difficulty giving the others a chance is largely connected to their idiocy. From what I've seen, while he's hardly a saint, he does pay attention and remember his mistakes. And as for his tapping into slavery, it was an absolute necessity that put one child under his power who would have died otherwise. The morality beyond that immediate necessity belongs in another thread however.

Basically, from my perspective, Naofumi's done some things of questionable morality, but he hasn't made any huge mistakes that cost countless lives. The other three have and even after being told this repeatedly they just shrug it off because they're "the heroes".

[Kinematics]

What? What?? Naofumi, what??! After doing this big deal of following through on your promise to Fitoria, and trying to talk things out with Motoyasu of all people, when the other heroes are finally ready to work together, you're all just, "Nope! We don't need you!" What the hell??!

You even acknowledged earlier that you don't know if you could block a full power attack from the Pope's weapon, and didn't know how you were going to survive, and watched as Itsuki and Ren blasted through the Pope's shields like mad.... what the hell even is this? Did the scriptwriter die in the middle of the episode and you got someone else in who only watched up to episode 15 or so?

I mean, it's nice that Naofumi got to make his wonderful, "I told you so!" speech, but really, it just doesn't fit at this exact point in the story. And yay, making the other heroes guilty and angry and lashing out and blaming each other right at the very moment where you want them to work together! (And then ignore that so that they work together anyway.)

I'm totally with the Pope on this one. I can hardly bear to watch this travesty.


Some people have said that the anime Naofumi is less angry than the original novel version, and this certainly seems like a more petty, angry, "fuck everything" Naofumi that completely breaks character with the Naofumi we've seen him grow into. This is not the Naofumi that talked with Fitoria, nor even the Naofumi that just fought Motoyasu. It's a cheap drama-queen Naofumi that makes me want to punch him.

-- Having said all that, BWTraveller is right: The other three are totally viewing this as a boss battle in a game, and giving no thought to the problems that they've caused, and I can kinda see where you'd want to ground them a bit rather than let them continue in their delusions. But it still felt completely wrong, the way it was actually implemented.



Aside from that, the pose of the group at 21:37, after the Cathedral effect came down, had me giving weird looks at Melty and Dancer. Melty looks like she got caught mid-step in a waltz, and Dancer is looking like she should be at the mall hanging out, and is wondering what's going on.

Overall, the episode felt extremely slow-paced, as an interlude to get a bunch of exposition out of the way before the big fight. I'm kinda disappointed in it.

[The Green One]

I'm sorry what? Nafoumi doesn't disregard all of his mistakes. When he lost himself in the Shield of Rage and injured Raphatalia he was clearly horrified by what he did. After the situation was resolved what became his first priority? Getting Raphatalia treatment, even putting himself in a deeply uncomfortable and upsetting situation by willingly going back to the Capital and the Church to purchase the necessary treatment item and completely willing to pay the price.

When the kingdom tried to rip him off by charging him an astronomical price to allow a class change for Raphatalia and Filo he was willing to pay it to give them the power they needed to protect themselves. The Kingdom was shocked by that response and then forced to ban him outright as a response.

Don't even start that Slavery debate again, it's not going to end well. Nafoumi makes mistakes and has flaws as he's a realistic human. He however faces his mistakes and problems and grows from them. Fitoria forces him to face the issue of the Heroes with a death threat but when she drops him off and he's away from her does he just ignore the edict and keep going? No he makes an actual effort to reach out to the worst Hero of them all and keeps trying when the spear hero reacts predictably. He doesn't pay just lip service he makes an actual effort. Sure you can say he does it because Fitoria is threatening him but he also acknowledges she does have a point about the world.

Nafoumi surely has his flaws and faults but don't lump him in with the other three. All of them are worse than him. Much worse. Ren at the very least seems the closest one to being reasonable. The Bow hero not so much but he's not hopeless at least.

[AC-Phoenix]

Without having seen the epiusode yet, I still don't know how they want to wrap everything up in just 6 or 7 episodes, and I didn't even finish reading the manga yet.

[The Green One]

This episode honestly felt like it was dragging itself out. I mean honestly they take a break to have like a 4 minute conversation in the middle of a boss fight?

Well anyway now that we've learned our lesson for the week we can finally get around to finishing the battle but oh wait the episode is over. *sigh*

Pacing was just all over the place. Not to mention the blatant reusual of shots. Weak episode all around.

[Kanon]

That was stupid. Naofumi was rightfully angry at the other heroes, but this wasn't the time to lecture them. Wait until after the battle is over to say your piece. Thanks to him, the enemies obtained the precious time needed to cast their ultimate defense and perhaps even charge up the weapon. Nice job on this one. He calls the others out on their mistakes while making an enormous one himself.

The worst part? It doesn't seem like he's ready to make good on his promise to Fitoria, and only agreed to work with them this one time. Hopefully the battle itself will change his mind.

Actually, I think the worst part was that Myne barely got called on her bullshit when she's far worse than anybody here. Naofumi pinned all the blame on Motoyasu (who's definitely the biggest idiot in this series) for believing her.

[Lex79]

I liked the way Naofumi addressed the other heroes. First of all, it's only human that he couldn't help but let slip some of the anger and frustration he had since the beginning of the series. Second this speech in such a dramatic moment was probably the only way to have them (especially Motoyasu) truly reflect on their actions.

[The Green One]

Perhaps. Getting it out there during a time they can't ignore it, look away, or make excuses. Well except for the Spear Hero but he's an idiot.

[Dengar]

What the hell? Nothing happened this episode.

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

He conveniently forgets his own mistakes, his tapping into slavery, or the harm he's inflicted upon his own party members by using a cursed shield.

So you're holding him responsible for a power he literally couldn't control at the time, and apparently saving a young girl from certain death and raising her and teaching her how to survive is incredibly immoral in 2019.

Originally Posted by Kanon

Actually, I think the worst part was that Myne barely got called on her bullshit when she's far worse than anybody here. Naofumi pinned all the blame on Motoyasu (who's definitely the biggest idiot in this series) for believing her.

One could argue she's not really worth "calling out". I mean she's not the one whose help he needs.

[Jaden]

Terrible direction in this episode. Sure, the plot point of how the heroes are finally able to semi-reconcile is nice, but seriously...they're standing in the crater talking for the whole episode. Occasionally, somebody casts a magic spell. Is this the Namek arc?

The pope is a mid boss tier character that nobody ever cared about, why not just skip to the part where he gets rekt?

[Dengar]

^This. Fight now, talk later. This is what made me feel like nothing happened or progressed at all. They could have had this conversation when times weren't as hectic and it wouldn't have been as immersion breaking.


If the only change to the scene between the opening of the episode and the ending is literally just "2 new actors are on the scene", there's something wrong.

[Dark Wing]

For the people saying Myne got of easy well personal I'm will have a few thing to say about her when she gets back.

I actually liked Naofumi's response of "I don't have to like you guy but I will work with you." When come to the other heroes at least he's willing to help in this situation. Do wish they'd just get on to the fight and save to chit chat for after the battle.

[Wandering Soul]

While the other heroes did deserve to get called out (though I give Ren some leeway), that was a terrible time to do it. They pretty much just stood in a crater arguing while their opponent spent their time preparing.

[Huh...?]

They wasted a whole episode on stuff, which could have been easily covered within 10-15 mins.

Even people who never followed the WN/LN/Manga, would find this episode as waste of plot and air time.

[Mad Pierrot]

This whole saga has been reminding me of Devil May Cry 4 over and over:
*Angry protagonist with a soft side (yelling included)
*Evil church
*Hero with bad reputation
*Hero happens to have demon powers
*The gullable townspeople become good after 18 episodes
*Heroes are forced to work together.
*One of the main romantic interest happens to understand the hero's personality and accept him despite his flaws.

For some reason, this episode reminded especially with a pope who wields a magic sword

[Chosen_Hero]

You know, for as much as the show likes to throw around the word god (by way of the pope or anyone related to the church in this anime) they haven't mentioned WHICH god they are talking about, not even once (neither real nor fictional). I mean, don't they revere the heroes themselves? If not, then why call it The Church of the Three Heroes at all?

But I guess that is just the easiest way for these kinds of stories to get away with the whole "religion/church is evil" angle without having to dive deeper or to actually have to explore the intricacies of a religion (real or fictional) and the good and bad that has been done/can be done with it. So far the only series I can say is not afraid of tackling aspects of religion and has actual respect for the material (to the point of having research a bit too detailed and obscure) is the Raildex series.