2012-11-19, 06:16 | Link #201 | |
18782+18782=37564
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Are you perhaps a scholar of linguistics of some kind? I'm having trouble following your rather sophisticated passage. It reminds me of scientific papers. Anyways, my personal view is freewill is inherent (to each individual), but responsibility isn't. It's imposed on, and thus limits freewill. What's inherent alongside freewill is consequence, and although it might often be equated in practical real life, responsibility and consequence are intrinsically different. Is this view similar in essence to what you were describing?
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2012-11-19, 11:13 | Link #202 | |||||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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The discomfort arises, however, from the realisation that the same logic leads us to question the kinds of punishment we inflict on convicted serial killers and pathological criminals. Science increasingly shows that these people are, in fact, wired very differently from normal people. As a result, it becomes necessary to question the extent to which such people can make moral decisions the way normal people can. If they can't, then diminished responsibility applies. We can't punish them to the full extent of the law any more than we can fairly punish a mentally handicapped person for breaking a law he had no chance of understanding, let alone follow faithfully to the letter. Quote:
In that view, morality becomes no more than something which exists after the fact, rather than something born from the consequence of conscious decision. If I dare allow myself to think about it, I face the very real possibility that free will has no objective reality. It's not something tangible you can consciously sense. It is an abstract concept. It is, very possibly, no more than a necessary illusion we created to justify the ethical systems upon which we govern our societies. Quote:
When it comes to ethics and morality, however, I agree that it's indeed the extent to which we can regulate our choices that matter more. Are we moral agents, or merely biological robots following a pre-programmed code? If we're mere robots, than there's no point in discussing morality the way we think of it today, because it all rests ultimately on our assumption of free will. Quote:
Self will, on the other hand, may well be something beyond human knowledge, as defined by our physical senses. It is an abstract concept born out of human reason. Whether or not it is a faithful copy of an a priori noumenon is something we may probably never "know". As Anh Minh said a few pages back, free will is ultimately something we accept on faith. ============ What does any of the above have to do with Psycho-Pass? As of Ep6, I have had to revise my view of the Sibyl System. A great deal of my defence for the system rests on its assumed ability to reliably detect latent criminals. It turns out that it is no more reliable than the real-life systems we have today, and that ought to have raised the hue and cry in this fictional world but, surprisingly, it hasn't. So far, the resistance is limited to the outlying fringe, which consists of individuals who aren't exactly pleasant neighbours. Not unless you have a macabre taste in art and a need for a fastidious cleaner. Well, there's the hope we will eventually get an episode to explain the origins of the system. And if that doesn't happen, I guess we'll have to go with simple suspension of disbelief. In the meantime, any discussion about Psycho-Pass's version of ethics and morality is moot. On the other hand, another strand of discussion seems to be emerging about the power of thought and is impact on perceived reality. Until we have more information, however, we can only speculate. |
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2012-11-19, 12:14 | Link #203 | |
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 39
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2012-11-19, 16:15 | Link #204 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I also wonder what the existence of Makishima implies. That it's possible to live within the system's blind spots, certainly. But he must have been examined at some point in the past, as a child if nothing else, and came up negative. Was that a false negative? Was he already thinking about escape back then? Or did he decide and implement, all within that one year between annual checks? Though I don't think the existence of false negatives is as damning for the system as that of false positives, and how would you find one of those? |
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2012-11-20, 09:56 | Link #206 | |||||
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regarding your other question, I have a few interests that I want to study over time but those inclinations are not in any genuine sense commensurable with a scholar's dedication or level of expertise. Quote:
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the second category includes deliberative and control mechanisms which in contrast are not automatically generated (for the most part), will tend to require conscious utilisation and subsequently increased levels of cognitive effort. For the subject of decision making and moral reasoning how these two categories of processes interact is obviously the crux of the matter. An interesting observation of morality is that we are by nature a composite of forces. So for example even though we are not explicitly impolite, uncivil or even racist by choice most of us will nonetheless reveal implicit assumptions and dispositions that influence the coordination and speed of processing types of information. The important point here is that even though we have implicit habits or associations it is our conscious processing which (edit: I should have responded at a more convenient time, what needs to be said here is that conscious processes can mediate our decisions and subsequent actions. There are also conditions and reasons why this intentional process might be disrupted or simply not occur) mediates our largely unselected attitudes and refines them according to the ideas held consciously appropriate and/or right. so not only are there two important and revealing systems involved but as much as they might seem to contradict one another they also serve complementary functions and roles. I'll conclude this awkward outline by mentioning that in the case of conscious decision making the mediating role it has with automatic processes also has a contouring effect, and remarkably enough can with development institute a preconscious monitoring system to further improve the interactions of this dual(istic)-system. I'm afraid besides being a little too tired to better outline and word these findings I'm also distracted in more ways than one. In any case hopefully this broad description will assist with the range of ideas discussed. Quote:
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Last edited by Edict; 2012-11-20 at 11:57. |
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2012-11-23, 21:30 | Link #207 | |
Stüldt Håjt!
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: On the corner
Age: 34
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You're quite verbose, Edict. I'm interested in your ideas. Can you edit yourself? What do you have to say? Also, do you have any cites? You know, for stuff like this:
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I'm firmly of the opinion that "free will" is just a can of worms that will lead to many non-sequiturs if it's defined.
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2012-11-29, 01:23 | Link #208 |
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most of the terminology, verbose as it could seem, accomplishes a reasonable balance between familiarity and general accessibility of the ideas and findings discussed. Although I did not explicitly state as much the reference you are looking for was referred to as the 'dual systems' theory (alternatively: dual processes theory). Which is very likely the most common name given to the preponderance of models which apply the theoretical distinction between automatic and conscious thought processes.
I have been using the idea of self-determination with attention to the monitoring and calibrating processes, which as a working definition could be said to parallel the essential elements of what is commonly understood as free will. |
2012-12-06, 20:56 | Link #209 | |
Radical Dreamer
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Washington DC
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Think of the Sibyl system of the show of today's education system. K-12 you are constantly judged on your test scores and grades. In Japan if you don't get good scores to get into a top middle school then you don't have a shot at a top highschool which means you don't get a shot at a top university. Likewise if you get into a top middle school, you may not do well in your high school entrance exams and will most likely start off with blue collar work at the age of 14. Germany's system is quite similar the only difference is students are by the time they reach the equivalent of HS put on a trade school route or a university route. The Sibyl System is no different from this in a sense. The only difference is that it's more blatant and in your face. In American society certainly we do stuff like this to a certain degree, but in American society the difference is, you have 50 yr olds going to university to earn degrees and take on professional lvl jobs that they didn't have an opportunity to do at a younger age. The US system is more flexible (and so higher economic volatility). To be honest which system is better? Freedom but with a higher cost of failure, or accepting less autonamy, but with a higher payout of stability & safety. To be honest I can say this anime is inspired by Thomas Hobbes. |
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2013-02-04, 16:04 | Link #210 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
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I have something I don't understand about the world of Psycho-Pass and Sybil's obsession with stress levels. It's not just life-choices that give people stress. People also get really angry from simple things like playing or even just watching sports; angry enough to kill each other or resort to vandalism. What about video games where people casually threaten each others' lives over voice-coms? Do these things simply not exist in Psycho-Pass, or do you have to go to a stress-relief center every time after a heated gaming session because your "hue is cloudy"?
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2013-02-04, 20:33 | Link #211 | |
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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You know what? It would be nice to get a picture of how censorship works within this hypothetical society.
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2013-02-09, 17:12 | Link #212 | |
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Well, if Sybil only exists in the Japan of Psycho-Pass' Earth, this could be a big reason why. I'm not sure to what extent pro sports are a big deal in Japan, but they're huge in North America. They're massive, massive businesses in North America. No way you'd have an American or Canadian government enacting something like the Sibyl system if it meant the end of pro sports (football is too popular in America, hockey too popular in Canada).
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2013-02-09, 18:23 | Link #213 |
Sensei, aishite imasu
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
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Spoilers: This is now the moral spectrum of the Sybil debate! (sorta spoilers)
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2013-02-09, 18:47 | Link #214 | |
Romanticist
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Age: 33
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2013-02-14, 18:16 | Link #216 |
Sensei, aishite imasu
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
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Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaha!!!!!
Episode 17 man...as someone who came into this show expecting some kinda nuanced comparison between authoritarians and liberty...all I can say that I find this all hilarious now!
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2013-02-14, 19:13 | Link #217 | |
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Location: Los Angeles, California
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I mean like nearly every episode! I guess the people who didn't see this and argued ad nauseum for the sake of arguing have egg on their face now. The real discussion should have been: what is Gen trying to say about our reality, as this is an obvious social commentary piece. (mostly applicable to Japan though. . .I guess I suppose you could kind of parallel it to the west.) |
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2013-02-14, 19:28 | Link #218 | |
Sensei, aishite imasu
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
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2013-02-15, 06:44 | Link #220 | |
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After the Oryo arc (at the latest), it was clear as day how Gen was slowly but surely making the Sibyl system look like an absolute horror. Gen likes to take a seemingly fair, functional, and just system, and slowly but surely pull back the curtain to reveal its grotesque hidden horrors. After what he did in Madoka Magica and Fate/Zero, combined with the first few episodes of this show, it was crystal clear to me that he was doing the same here in Psycho-Pass. At some level, I think that the thematic strand linking Madoka Magica, Fate/Zero, and Psycho-Pass is one of profound caution - Never but too much faith in any system, no matter how good or promising or even glamorous it may seem on the face of it. Make sure you know a system very well before you put complete trust in it.
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