Gundam 00 Movie: A wakening of the Trailblazer - Discussion

[SonicSP]

Originally Posted by velocity7

So in the end, it was Ribbons' fault for causing so much mischief that the ESF couldn't oppose the ELS as much as they could have.

That's one part of it, but since the current ESF was also actively pursuing a peaceful policy, that certainly didn't help either. I recall them mentioning they were disarming a but too in the movie.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by SonicSP

That's one part of it, but since the current ESF was also actively pursuing a peaceful policy, that certainly didn't help either. I recall them mentioning they were disarming a but too in the movie.

There's a big difference between disarmament and de-militarization. It seems like the ESF were persuing the latter.

[fukarming]

Finally watch it. I didn't go thru the entire 50 pages of discussion.

The battle scenes are amazing. I have no idea how anyone can say "not enough battle scenes".

All characters have their fair share of screen time. I am glad to see them (even the dead ones) and yet I don't feel they are here "just because it is the movie and everyone needs to gather". Nice job of the directors and script writer.

So why do the ELS attack Earth in the first place? I know their home planet is dying and they sent out numerous sphere thing and assimilate other planets. Didn't that.......make them evil (Kinda like ID4 alien evil)? Why do they stop attacking Earth after Setsuna "communicate" with them? What do Setsuna "tell" them that "change their mind"?

[ssbb210]

not enough battle scene for setsuna.
ELS react to Quantum Brainwave.

[Rising Dragon]

The ELS attacked Earth for that final battle because of Descartes Shaman--they were extremely freaked out by the transmission of Descartes' hostile QBWs and decided to put an end to humanity before humanity put an end to them. Setsuna merely explained the misunderstanding to them, and the ELS in return explained why they were here.

[fukarming]

Originally Posted by ssbb210

not enough battle scene for setsuna.
ELS react to Quantum Brainwave.

That's true. But I think the overall battle time is enough. The whole plot is about Setsuna not being around. If Setsuna is around the entire time the movie can easily cut short of 30 min. Besides, Setsuna kicked way too many ass back in S2. I would prefer Setsuna take a back seat rather than taking care of everything like in S2.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

The ELS attacked Earth for that final battle because of Descartes Shaman--they were extremely freaked out by the transmission of Descartes' hostile QBWs and decided to put an end to humanity before humanity put an end to them. Setsuna merely explained the misunderstanding to them, and the ELS in return explained why they were here.

Really? It is the ELS who start "attacking" Earth with no warning whatsoever - way before Descartes show any hostile QBWs. I feel very bad for those with the innovade genes who become metal scrap (those people die, right? the highschool girl only got saved (did she even get saved?) because they rush her to the lab. I feel even worse when the alien cause the subway accident killing lots of innocent people.

We know that if you let the metal touch you, you got assimilated and thus, die. Descartes only fire when the metal stuff are chasing him. So he should just sit there and let the metal stuff eat him? Actually Setsuna did just that and almost die in the middle of the movie when he tries to communicate with the alien (If tierie did not sacrifice himself, Setsuna is already dead and Earth would be destroyed)

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by fukarming

Really? It is the ELS who start "attacking" Earth with no warning whatsoever - way before Descartes show any hostile QBWs. I feel very bad for those with the innovade genes who become metal scrap (those people die, right? the highschool girl only got saved (did she even get saved?) because they rush her to the lab. I feel even worse when the alien cause the subway accident killing lots of innocent people.

We know that if you let the metal touch you, you got assimilated and thus, die. Descartes only fire when the metal stuff are chasing him. So he should just sit there and let the metal stuff eat him? Actually Setsuna did just that and almost die in the middle of the movie when he tries to communicate with the alien (If tierie did not sacrifice himself, Setsuna is already dead and Earth would be destroyed)

The ELS weren't attacking--they simply assimilated a derelict spaceship to use it as a research probe and sent it towards the only sign of life in the solar system. And then humanity blew it up--Descartes was the one to do that too. The incidents on Earth were just the surviving ELS continuing their mission, to learn, and they do that by assimilating. At that point it was the only method they knew about. As for the half-assimilated victims, no, presumably they are saved just as Amia was. In fact, supplementary materials reveal that after the war, many people became Innovators because of the partial assimilation by the ELS, and I doubt all of it was voluntary after the war. Amia's certainly wasn't. It started another war, too, but that's neither here nor now.

The ELS targeting the Ptolemaios II was the same deal--hell, they even took on the form of their research probe to do so. They were similarly attracted--after all, they had both an Innovator there, and two humans augmented to have higher quantum brainwave abilities than normal, never mind the rest of the crew, who may be in a similar boat due to their more frequent exposure to Trans-AM and the Trans-AM Burst.

And then when the ELS come out in force, humanity went to them, and what was the first thing they did? Descartes flew out and started blowing them up. While broadcasting all his frustration. At that point, the ELS had pretty much figured humanity to be a hostile force they needed to defend themselves from. Let us not forget that prior to that, the ELS weren't headed towards Earth, a detail mentioned in the ESF assembly scene.

[velocity7]

I'm not sure that the ELS understood any of the QBW that Descartes was exhibiting during his attack, especially since they weren't able to understand any of Setsuna's and merely attacked his unit in the first two encounters in space. If they had, then Descartes should have been able to hear some sort of message from them as well. That said, his attacks on the ELS most certainly alerted them to some level of hostility at the very least.

[fukarming]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

The ELS weren't attacking--they simply assimilated a derelict spaceship to use it as a research probe and sent it towards the only sign of life in the solar system. And then humanity blew it up--Descartes was the one to do that too. The incidents on Earth were just the surviving ELS continuing their mission, to learn, and they do that by assimilating. At that point it was the only method they knew about. As for the half-assimilated victims, no, presumably they are saved just as Amia was. In fact, supplementary materials reveal that after the war, many people became Innovators because of the partial assimilation by the ELS, and I doubt all of it was voluntary after the war. Amia's certainly wasn't. It started another war, too, but that's neither here nor now.

The ELS targeting the Ptolemaios II was the same deal--hell, they even took on the form of their research probe to do so. They were similarly attracted--after all, they had both an Innovator there, and two humans augmented to have higher quantum brainwave abilities than normal, never mind the rest of the crew, who may be in a similar boat due to their more frequent exposure to Trans-AM and the Trans-AM Burst.

And then when the ELS come out in force, humanity went to them, and what was the first thing they did? Descartes flew out and started blowing them up. While broadcasting all his frustration. At that point, the ELS had pretty much figured humanity to be a hostile force they needed to defend themselves from. Let us not forget that prior to that, the ELS weren't headed towards Earth, a detail mentioned in the ESF assembly scene.

I can see what you say are what the director trying to convey, and I thank you for taking your time explaining that to me. However, in blunt, I don't buy the directors take home message at all.

When Setsuna communicate with the alien, we saw the alien turned the entire planet to metal - presumably killing everything on there. If the army and Descartes did not blow up that spaceship, Earth would turn into metal scrap already.

Just because "that is the only way they know" didn't justify their action. I would like Setsuna to explain to those who lost their family and friends during the initial alien "communication" which the alien control un-manned vehicle and wreck chaos.

Even if the half assimilated ones are saved, the full assimilated ones are dead, right? (the one in the solar energy facility. They are all dead, right?)

To me, the alien are like the spanish colonizer back in the 1500s, they just waltz in and do whatever they want. The American Indians are no match for them in terms of military (like the ESF army) so they "communicate" and get a peace treaty. I know some celebrate events like these, but I hardly call them an example of peace and how communication triumph.

EDIT: Louise reaction is another reason for my point. Louise has repeated say "don't come near" and yet the alien ignored. That is another reason why I call the alien evil and equate them with the spanish colonizer.

[Tak]

I mentioned this a while ago myself, since, like you, I cannot fully agree with the intent of the directors in regards to the so-called 'dialogue'.

What is worse, the communication initiated by Setsuna is simply too vague to be convincing. I am quite certain that resistance amongst those with quantum waves have been expressed, but the ELS probably chose not to heed them.

I mean, the ELS was a great idea, but the producers did not utilize it enough.

- Tak

Originally Posted by fukarming

I can see what you say are what the director trying to convey, and I thank you for taking your time explaining that to me. However, in blunt, I don't buy the directors take home message at all.

When Setsuna communicate with the alien, we saw the alien turned the entire planet to metal - presumably killing everything on there. If the army and Descartes did not blow up that spaceship, Earth would turn into metal scrap already.

Just because "that is the only way they know" didn't justify their action. I would like Setsuna to explain to those who lost their family and friends during the initial alien "communication" which the alien control un-manned vehicle and wreck chaos.

Even if the half assimilated ones are saved, the full assimilated ones are dead, right? (the one in the solar energy facility. They are all dead, right?)

To me, the alien are like the spanish colonizer back in the 1500s, they just waltz in and do whatever they want. The American Indians are no match for them in terms of military (like the ESF army) so they "communicate" and get a peace treaty. I know some celebrate events like these, but I hardly call them an example of peace and how communication triumph.

EDIT: Louise reaction is another reason for my point. Louise has repeated say "don't come near" and yet the alien ignored. That is another reason why I call the alien evil and equate them with the spanish colonizer.

[SonicSP]

Originally Posted by fukarming

Finally watch it. I didn't go thru the entire 50 pages of discussion.

The battle scenes are amazing. I have no idea how anyone can say "not enough battle scenes".

All characters have their fair share of screen time. I am glad to see them (even the dead ones) and yet I don't feel they are here "just because it is the movie and everyone needs to gather". Nice job of the directors and script writer.

So why do the ELS attack Earth in the first place? I know their home planet is dying and they sent out numerous sphere thing and assimilate other planets. Didn't that.......make them evil (Kinda like ID4 alien evil)? Why do they stop attacking Earth after Setsuna "communicate" with them? What do Setsuna "tell" them that "change their mind"?

Basically, the ELS were always trying to understand humans, wanted to become our friends and stuff. That was their intention from the start. The misunderstanding comes from the fact that the ELS are a collective species that understands things by assimiliating things, its their culture, and its the way they evolved.

When you look at it from a human perspective, the ELS is wrong but from the ELS point of view, they were trying to do a good thing and the reason why they kept at it is thats how they do it with themselves. They came because they were attracted to the humanity emitting quantum brainwaves, and they wanted tp be friendly with us but assimiliating is all they can do, thats quite literally how the species is. They stopped in the end only because Setsuna made them realise the humans point of view (IE we don't want to be to be asismiliated its a bad thing for us unlike it is for your culture), the point of view that came by pretty much due to the humans vastly different biological background than the ELS, who appear to be almost bacterialike-macro collective creatures.

Of course, the real tension started when Descartes pretty much blew up the Europa, neither side can be blamed for this since humans were trying to prevent it from crashing because they thought it was a derelict ship.

Basically, the ELS were trying to give us a hug, but it was a very tight hug and they didnt realise they were hurting us. Setsuna basically said to them that it was too tight and they basically said sorry my bad, we wont hug you anymore.

The take home message is pretty much that people from different cultures and backgrounds even with good intentions can have misunderstandings and its important to bridge that misunderstanding so it doesn't lead to needless loss for either sides when there is pure goodwill on both sides.

Originally Posted by fukarming

To me, the alien are like the spanish colonizer back in the 1500s, they just waltz in and do whatever they want. The American Indians are no match for them in terms of military (like the ESF army) so they "communicate" and get a peace treaty. I know some celebrate events like these, but I hardly call them an example of peace and how communication triumph.

EDIT: Louise reaction is another reason for my point. Louise has repeated say "don't come near" and yet the alien ignored. That is another reason why I call the alien evil and equate them with the spanish colonizer.

It depends, that is essentially the point. The aliens aren't really aware that the humans don't like assimiliation. It also doesn't help that humans were the ones who attracted them with the strong QBW signals in the first place leading the ELS to think that humans wanted something and then they did what was their usual rule when it comes to uniting with other species. Of course, the loss of individuals would mean much less in a collective species however, which is what the ELS are as opposed to humans who are an individualistic species. After Setsuna pretty much showed them the human point of view they stopped because they started to understand human suffering and how it was actually detrimental to the individualistic humans, unlike in the ELS culture where it is considered a way to get closer with one another.

Its essentially trying to promote the quantum field communication system that Aeolia had in mind to help humans communicate with alien species and it is due to the lack of communications that this problem started in the first place. When it comes to the infinite evolutionary paths species around the galaxy can take, it becomes hard to find a single universal values or way of communication to make them reasonably understand each other. The ELS and humans are lucky that the basic goodwill is there and bridging the cultural and communication barriers is all that is needed, there are other civilization out there that may have much more less good intentions and making peace with such civilizations are going to be much much harder.

If the ELS truly wanted to do whatever they want, they would have continued assimilating humans even after the dialogues, there's certainly nothing stopping them physically but reaching out is what they've always wanted and Setsuna basically showed them that the humans don't roll the assimilation way since they come from a vastly different biological culture and evolutionary background. Setsuna believed from the start that they had the goodwill in them and that they just misunderstood human culture, which is why he used Trans-Am Burst in 00 Raiser even if it was close to suicidal.

[Rising Dragon]

And concerning Louise telling the Sky-ELS to "stay away," let's keep in mind that she was using a spoken language and the ELS, as a species, have absolutely no concept of verbal communication, since theirs is entirely through QBWs. Can't fault 'em for that one.

[velocity7]

It also didn't help that fully assimilating a target did not "assimilate" their consciousness; instead, they died. Thus, the ELS get no understanding as to whether or not assimilating a human causes "death" from their POV. It's also quite possible they believed humans were also a collective consciousness, so "killing" any human should not matter as their consciousness returns to some "main body".

This can be said for the ELS, but not for humans.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Not to mention that we have no idea whether the planet they assimilated even had sentient life on it, let alone life forms with any concept of "self", "pain", or even "existence".

[velocity7]

You know, this reminds me of one episode in Enterprise I vaguely recall... one species was offended that humans ate in public, because according to their culture, eating was the equivalent of sleeping with another person.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by velocity7

You know, this reminds me of one episode in Enterprise I vaguely recall... one species was offended that humans ate in public, because according to their culture, eating was the equivalent of sleeping with another person.

That sounds about right. Look at how much variety exists between human cultures, and that's just one species. The differences between two different species that evolved in two different solar systems would be so severe that, without something like GN Particles and QBW that breaks down all forms of communication into the most basic and shared level of all, they would be completely irreconcilable.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by velocity7

It also didn't help that fully assimilating a target did not "assimilate" their consciousness; instead, they died. Thus, the ELS get no understanding as to whether or not assimilating a human causes "death" from their POV. It's also quite possible they believed humans were also a collective consciousness, so "killing" any human should not matter as their consciousness returns to some "main body".

This can be said for the ELS, but not for humans.

Seeing how humans weren't the first species they encountered, you'd think the ELS would get some kind of a clue after commencing wholesale genocide on other worlds regarding the pain of death, whether or not a collective consciousness was present. What collective consciousness is left when an entire world simply died after being consumed by the ELS?

After all, did the ELS not escape their dying world in fear of their entire specie's extinction? And with no living beings left, there would be no collective conscious.

- Tak

[velocity7]

Based on that logic, the ELS have no trouble committing wholesale genocide with other species, but have a problem when Setsuna makes first contact with them and thus they stop.

It seems like there's a missing part of the puzzle here; a part of the ELS culture we don't fully understand and as such one would jump to insane conclusions. Probably the same kind of conclusions that the Old Human faction would jump to, and why they went to war soon after 2314.

Here's another theory: the ELS did not see us as a sentient species at first. Even though some of us emit QBW, the thought never crossed their mind. In fact, there's even the possibility they believed they were the only sentient species this whole time. Us attacking them with mobile suits and ships was what they observed to be a "natural reaction" from a potentially "aggressive" species. It never occurred to them that we were defending our home planet against what we thought was an alien invasion, while they continued to assimilate thinking there were no consequences in doing so.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by velocity7

It seems like there's a missing part of the puzzle here; a part of the ELS culture we don't fully understand and as such one would jump to insane conclusions. Probably the same kind of conclusions that the Old Human faction would jump to, and why they went to war soon after 2314.

It'd be nice if we can learn more about the ELS.

They were an interesting idea, but one I did not think was utilized to its full potential, and at the end, the plot involving them had a cheap way out.

I really want to konw the details of the communication between Setsuna and the ELS... what did he say, exactly? Why did he later accepted ELS form?

did he sing and do a kira dance?.............. oh wait...

The details man... the details...

- Tak

[SonicSP]

Originally Posted by Tak

After all, did the ELS not escape their dying world in fear of their entire specie's extinction? And with no living beings left, there would be no collective conscious.

- Tak

It depends though, I'm not entirely sure whether we've confirmed whether they have encountered other species before and we do know they're capable of innovating their own designs such as creating the SES on their former homeworld as mentioned in the interview. Besides, the ELS died through physical destruction not from being absorbed. Which as far as their concerned is how they basically want to unite with other species. Pure destruction is one thing, but they don't seem to relate assimiliation with it seeing as they pretty much like to seperate and combine with each other as they please.

And if indeed the ELS did not understand the actual pain and death through non collective species when they got assimiliated before, they've learned it now after the Quantum System and they stopped not long after Setsuna used it, otherwise they're still free to do whatever they wish to the humans with not much resistance stopping them from doing so.