(L) Tiger & Bunny (Sunrise)

[MeggieMay]

Originally Posted by darkmanure

Spoiler:

Well the android did cause trouble 1 on 1 with Tiger before and that was the inferior version. This one seems to indicate that it was massively upgraded and not malfunctioning

Spoiler:

Yeah but there were five of them (plus Kaede but I don't think she would have been able to help that much) where it took only two of them to take down Cis (and one of those two was Sky High and he was with the larger group this time!). That said, I do wonder if the DarkTiger really defeated them in physical fight or if it just shot them all with a drug or electricity or something along those lines. None of them look that beat up and they don't seem to remember fighting the robot at this point.

My thoughts on Ep 23:

Spoiler:

First, it was "It's a clip show?!! You know I'm blanking on if this is the first clip show they've done this year but one was due either way. At at least the second part of the show wasn't clips, so it wasn't a total clip show.

Tiger getting Bunny's memories back: That was a bit of a let down for me. I figured calling him Bunny would do it but his reaction was to wake up like someone hit a switch was like WTF? Bunny's handling this way better than he should be, though adrenaline and lack of time to process it may be factors. Still, it fell flat for me.

Saito and Ben: That was really cute in a good way . Interesting that Saito was out of the loop on what was going on. Also, was it really the light of what Kaede did that fixed everything or the power. What I mean is did the power really translate across TV or was it just the light in general that was the key to waking them up? Or could it be Saito only needed the light. These questions aren't answered here really, because Agnes wasn't watching the TV at the time (she was on the phone with Maverick). Either way, it could be that other than Agnes the others who were at the party memories may have returned because they easily could all have been watching the show. Could be of interest later or might not matter at all.

The Heroes predicament: Hopefully most, if not all of them, may realize that what the android guy says is probably a lie. They're all going to get their heads blown off if they hit the switch (there's no reason for the guy to be telling the truth - he's a NEXT hater). The out here that I see is that Saito probably set along more than one "bug." Saito knows Tiger is a klutz, plus I didn't think Saito got upset enough over the"bug" being lost. I'm thinking he sent more than one.

The Lunatic factor: I think Lunatic is about to show up gunning for Maverick. He won't be coming to help the Heroes or T&B but I don't think he's going to take kindly to any of what Mavericks up to (the director said that Lunatic wouldn't be fighting with the Heroes but he didn't say anything about him showing up on his own agenda and the Heroes aren't in the exact same place as Maverick, so he would be telling the truth there). Lunatic may not know about the replace the Heroes with a robot plan" yet but he probably does know how that fight on the roof ended up. Other factors that lead me to think Lunatic is about to show up are he may realize that this is a very good time to try and take Maverick out. With the TV stuff that did air Maverick is going to have problems with the audience wondering what is going on (which may mean that is the real reason he need them dead - as a cover up for an elaborate scheme to get his androids to replace the Heroes (plus we know Maverick loves those schemes and he's on a roll with the over the top ones at the moment). Lunatic also may be thinking what the audience is at this point - did Maverick have something to do with his fathers downfall? Even if he doesn't come to kill Maverick to begin with, I think he could show up just to ask him some questions. Last but not least, I think Yuri actually works in he building all of this is going down in. He may have seen T&B come in.

Over all I thought this weeks episode was a bit flat. The plot kind of took a Superfriends/American Saturday morning Cartoon (1970s) turn here for me. It just felt out of place with the earlier tension. It doesn't mean they can't pull it together but it did kind of make me think of the Sunrise problem with shows having endings that hit walls. We're not to that point yet, however. Two more episodes and the possibility that they're saving up money here to use on the finale, and the fact these writers have been keeping me guessing in the past, makes me think this could still be a good ending. Even if it doesn't quite make it to a really great ending, I do not see T&B ending in a super hit the wall bad way either ( :knock on wood: since nothing can be rulled out ).

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Spoiler:

Remember it was Rotwang who build Robo Tiger. Cis was built around the Heroes data. What I suspected was correct that Maverick gave that data. So strengths and weaknesses are available to the robot.

The Heroes data applies; however, I believe Kotetsu will be the wild card. He is evolving/losing his powers, so there is no data on that. Furthermore, his shorter time was augmented with stronger and quicker bursts in power, which might be the difference maker in this battle with the robot.

[darkmanure]

So far we've only seen it pop up once. I like that idea of it reappearing to beat the crap out of that robot. Makes me wonder what kind of plan those 2 have after the android is beat? Blow up the collars and run away like cowards?

[Kusa-San]

This episode was not really good. The fight bewteen Tiger and Barnaby was bad and in the end, Bunny retrieved his memory too easly. We should have had a good fight between these two which should have lasted until the end of the episode.

As awlays, I'm really angry at Sunrise to privilege Sacred Seven over Tiger and Bunny when it comes to animation. It's just a nonsense to me. What's the problem with this studio ?

The second part was better but once again whe should have had a fight bewteen the heroes (otther than Tiger and Bunny) and Cis's big brother.

And all these reused scenes...urhg...

Probably one of the weakest episode.

[KRegnard]

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

This episode was not really good. The fight bewteen Tiger and Barnaby was bad and in the end, Bunny retrieved his memory too easly. We should have had a good fight between these two which should have lasted until the end of the episode.

As awlays, I'm really angry at Sunrise to privilege Sacred Seven over Tiger and Bunny when it comes to animation. It's just a nonsense to me. What's the problem with this studio ?

The second part was better but once again whe should have had a fight bewteen the heroes (otther than Tiger and Bunny) and Cis's big brother.

And all these reused scenes...urhg...

Probably one of the weakest episode.

Contrary to what you say, a 24 minute fight does NOTHING to advance the plot. It is superficial to say that that would be a good replacement for the episode. How would your suggestion help Barnaby regain his memories? I would think that the solution provided by Sunrise was more than appropriate, given the fact that Barnaby hates being called Bunny.

I don't see anything wrong with this episode's animation anyway. So what if there wasn't a LONG fight? There was plenty more to enjoy from the story's development, and the motif the episode conveys (that machines can never be humans, albeit having superior physical capabilities).

[ars89]

Wow Barnaby regained his memories with just the use of his nickname, why didn't Kotetsu use it before. Would have liked to see the other heroes vs the android, oh well. At least we know he's an improved version of the one they fought before. Wonder what the heroes in the cages will do. Maverick better not do anything to Kaede.

[Saturn Beaver]

Yeah, I'm also a bit disappointed in how easy it is for Barnaby to regain its memory. Not because of the method (I saw that coming, being in the title and all), but they make it seems taht simply saying that word is enough to erase all the memory tampering. If they make it so that's the final piece in the puzzle after Kotetsu's repeated attempts to jog his memory back then it's fine, but this way it makes Kotetsu's struggle very pointless, he could just say one word and avoided all these problems.

As expected, Dark Tiger is an android. I'm a bit disappointed that the fight against the other heroes is skipped entirely though - I know it's a beatdown, but we weren't spared that against Jake, why now? I just think that we've been having too many Tiger/Barnaby fights who has similar power sets, seeing other various powers of the heroes will be interesting.

What I enjoy is Ben and Saito, their interaction with each other is pretty funny. Maverick and Rotwang is being very James Bond Villain-y, all he needs to do is press a button to remove the hero threat, but of course he wants to play with them first. I'm guessing there's some friendship speech next episode and they end up pressing the button at the same time and everyone is saved...although that may be a bit corny, I can see them doing that.

[Triple_R]

Episode 23 thoughts below...

Spoiler for Tiger and Bunny Episode 23:

I really liked the appropriately short and intense Tiger vs. Bunny fight. Short of one hospitalizing the other - Which would set the stage for more angst than I think this show could handle in what time it has left - This was the best way they could have handled the fight, imo. I'm certainly not disappointed at all with this part of the episode. The animation and artwork looked fine to me.

Other elements I liked:

1. Maverick's real plan is a lot better and tighter than mass memory alteration alone was. That's very good to see. Its raised his quality as the final antagonist mastermind of this anime.

2. Bringing back Dr. Rotwang, and having him be the creator of Dark Tiger. This really helps tie several overarching plot-lines nicely together, creating a picture perfect package.


That being said, I have mixed feelings about keeping Dark Tiger vs. the other heroes off camera, and replacing that with a lengthy scene of Rotwang tormenting the heroes. The Rotwang scene is emotionally effective, but it is a bit cheesy, I admit. Given a choice between that Rotwang scene, or using its time allotment for Dark Tiger vs. the other heroes, I'm not really sure which I would have chosen myself. If anything, I'm probably leaning towards the latter.

Still, the drama and suspense in this episode is as good as ever, Maverick came across as a much more cunning and effective antagonist due to this episode, and all the scenes with Tiger and Bunny in them were truly fantastic.

9/10 for me. I'm really looking forward to the big climax!

[Kusa-San]

Originally Posted by KRegnard

Contrary to what you say, a 24 minute fight does NOTHING to advance the plot. It is superficial to say that that would be a good replacement for the episode. How would your suggestion help Barnaby regain his memories? I would think that the solution provided by Sunrise was more than appropriate, given the fact that Barnaby hates being called Bunny.

Firstly, it's not a 24 minutes fight since there are other plots and other characters. Secondly, since when a fight can not bring plot with it ? We're not talking about bad US comic books here. It depends on how the fight is handled. My suggestion is just to make a badass fighting scene with plot in it which will be much entertaining to wtach than what we saw in this episode. It's a super heroes anime, yet, we pratically don't have fighting scenes. I'm against actual comics books which are bad and have too much fighting scene but with T&B, it's the contrary : There're not enough of them which is a shame.

I don't see anything wrong with this episode's animation anyway. So what if there wasn't a LONG fight? There was plenty more to enjoy from the story's development, and the motif the episode conveys (that machines can never be humans, albeit having superior physical capabilities).

We're talking about a big sucess anime which deserve much more budget? Go watch an episode of Sacred Seven. You'll see the difference.

[LKK]

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

We're talking about a big sucess anime which deserve much more budget? Go watch an episode of Sacred Seven. You'll see the difference.

Given the lack of Tiger & Bunny pre-series advertising and the lack of announced merchandising until the middle of the series, I think it's a fair deduction that Tiger & Bunny's success caught the producers off-guard. Tiger & Bunny has the budget it has because it wasn't expected to be a big success.

[KRegnard]

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

Firstly, it's not a 24 minutes fight since there are other plots and other characters. Secondly, since when a fight can not bring plot with it ? We're not talking about bad US comic books here. It depends on how the fight is handled. My suggestion is just to make a badass fighting scene with plot in it which will be much entertaining to wtach than what we saw in this episode. It's a super heroes anime, yet, we pratically don't have fighting scenes. I'm against actual comics books which are bad and have too much fighting scene but with T&B, it's the contrary : There're not enough of them which is a shame.


We're talking about a big sucess anime which deserve much more budget? Go watch an episode of Sacred Seven. You'll see the difference.

Yeah, fights can help to develop plot, mostly in a cringeworthy fashion, I'm pretty sure you don't want lengthy dialogues during a fight, or extensive flashbacks or inner thoughts... :\

I watch Sacred Seven as well, I wouldn't say its animation is any better or worse. Sure, the colours used are more vibrant (obviously because of the different nature of the 2 shows), I wasn't particularly impressed with anything else about its animation though, I'd say it's equally good, if not worse than that found in TnB. So yes, there is a difference, but it is not a difference in quality.

[kk2extreme]

Saito is pretty awesome this ep.

"Your taxi does suck" lol

[Maverick05]

Originally Posted by LKK

Given the lack of Tiger & Bunny pre-series advertising and the lack of announced merchandising until the middle of the series, I think it's a fair deduction that Tiger & Bunny's success caught the producers off-guard. Tiger & Bunny has the budget it has because it wasn't expected to be a big success.

And personally, it was that reason that some people decided to pop and watch Tiger and Bunny, the UnderDog of the Year and a good candidate for Anime of the Decade. Yet Sunrise needed that kick in the nuts to wake up and try something new.

BTW, how is Sacred Seven going? Is it gaining enough money to keep Sunrise's exec happy or the T&B hype is killing them?


I would have also loved to see all the heroes fight, and I hope they add that in an OVA sometime in the following months.

About the episode, I like it. I also had the feeling that the "bunny" word will do the magic. I hope we get a great finale!!

[kk2extreme]

S7 has nothing on S&B

[Key Board]

Originally Posted by Maverick05

And personally, it was that reason that some people decided to pop and watch Tiger and Bunny, the UnderDog of the Year and a good candidate for Anime of the Decade. Yet Sunrise needed that kick in the nuts to wake up and try something new.

BTW, how is Sacred Seven going? Is it gaining enough money to keep Sunrise's exec happy or the T&B hype is killing them?

If you are implying that Sacred Seven was Sunrise's ace for the season. I don't think that's the case. It has even less budget than Tiger and Bunny. It's going to end at episode 12/13 it seems. Tiger and Bunny is going for a full season.

What Sunrise is preparing for is Horizon on the Middle of Nowhere. http://genesis-horizon.net/
This show, on the other hand, has a huge budget and is going to span around 3 cours (36 episodes)

[Kusa-San]

Originally Posted by LKK

Given the lack of Tiger & Bunny pre-series advertising and the lack of announced merchandising until the middle of the series, I think it's a fair deduction that Tiger & Bunny's success caught the producers off-guard. Tiger & Bunny has the budget it has because it wasn't expected to be a big success.

Then Sunrise's system is bad. If they can't adapt their budget to the popularity, it's a bad system. For example, they can add a system based on the crowd funding. If people are pleased with the serie they can help it by spneding some of their money on it.

Originally Posted by KRegnard

Yeah, fights can help to develop plot, mostly in a cringeworthy fashion, I'm pretty sure you don't want lengthy dialogues during a fight, or extensive flashbacks or inner thoughts... :\

Yes it's better like that. You can have dialogue, flashback and tought but not too much. It's not the meaning of a fight. However, it doesn't mean there is none and futhermore, it's not like I'm asking for just fighting scene. I'm aking for good plot and good fighting scene. Right now, we don't have the last one.

I watch Sacred Seven as well, I wouldn't say its animation is any better or worse. Sure, the colours used are more vibrant (obviously because of the different nature of the 2 shows), I wasn't particularly impressed with anything else about its animation though, I'd say it's equally good, if not worse than that found in TnB. So yes, there is a difference, but it is not a difference in quality.

It seems to me than Sacred Seven animatoin is better than T&B when it comes to fighting scenes.

Originally Posted by Key Board

If you are implying that Sacred Seven was Sunrise's ace for the season. I don't think that's the case. It has even less budget than Tiger and Bunny. It's going to end at episode 12/13 it seems. Tiger and Bunny is going for a full season.

What Sunrise is preparing for is Horizon on the Middle of Nowhere. http://genesis-horizon.net/
This show, on the other hand, has a huge budget and is going to span around 3 cours (36 episodes)

You can't compare Sacred Seven budget and T&B one like that. SS is only 13 episodes when T&B is 26.

[Kaioshin Sama]

I don't think the people that are going on about Barnaby regaining his memories when Tiger called him "Bunny" are grasping exactly what that nickname entails here because it's actually pretty important as much as it seems like a silly nickname.

See if you've been paying attention the whole show you'll definitely notice that Tiger has been calling him "Bunny" since pretty much the beginning of their relationship and he's the ONLY one that does it and consistently at that. As such while the rest of Sternbild knows the team by the name "Tiger and Barnaby", we the viewer have come to know them on a personal level as "Tiger and Bunny" and that's also become a symbol of their friendship too.

Since the real Tiger is the only one that's ever called him Bunny, it would be a contradiction for some random murderer Bunny has never met to call him that. Maverick's mind control is supposed to fall apart at even the slightest contradiction, and that's a pretty big one that even he didn't know about (I think he never quite realized just how close Barnaby got to Tiger after the Jake incident) so of course that's what happens.

I'm a little hard pressed to think of something more appropriate. Some might call it cliche, I ask what they'd prefer as alternative here. I know a lot of people were hung up on the pin (and that can still come into play yet for something) and perhaps that not being used is what's led them to become upset here (past history of Sunrise shows reminds me that when things don't go exactly as people predicted they often get a little antsy regardless of whether what does happen works fine or not), but I find little if anything to directly fault the show for here.

Speaking of Sunrise, they have a lot more than just Sacred Seven in the works alongside Tiger and Bunny right now. In fact at last count they are seemingly working on something like 7 shows simultaneously (Tiger and Bunny, Sacred Seven, Gundam Age, Horizon on The Middle of Nowhere, Kami: Phi Brain no Puzzle, Gundam UC episode 04 and Gintama') and even though they are subdivided into many different studios with their own buildings, that's still a lot of money tied up all at once. The fact that all the shows still look good to excellent with maybe a handful of budget episodes thrown in....I don't even know how they are doing it. They must just have that much reserve capital to play with I guess.

Let's see....what else....I really like how the H-01 has been handled so far. The fact that the heroes were beaten off-screen creates an appropriate amount of suspsense for what should be Tiger and Bunny's final battle. We know it's supposed to be extremely powerful and that the odds are stacked against T&B, but we haven't see how and that means it'll have to wait till next episode. Also the whole Hero bonds theme has pretty much come full circle in this episode only to set up it's being put to the ultimate test next episode. The heroes will have to prove that they are worthy of keeping the mantle of Stern Bild's protectors next episode and I have no doubt it will prove interesting.

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

Then Sunrise's system is bad. If they can't adapt their budget to the popularity, it's a bad system. For example, they can add a system based on the crowd funding. If people are pleased with the serie they can help it by spneding some of their money on it.

Yes it's better like that. You can have dialogue, flashback and tought but not too much. It's not the meaning of a fight. However, it doesn't mean there is none and futhermore, it's not like I'm asking for just fighting scene. I'm aking for good plot and good fighting scene. Right now, we don't have the last one.

It seems to me than Sacred Seven animatoin is better than T&B when it comes to fighting scenes.

You can't compare Sacred Seven budget and T&B one like that. SS is only 13 episodes when T&B is 26.

No offense, but I think you've managed to completely miss the point of this show. This isn't built as a pure big budget action series, it's built as a deconstruction of the hero archetype, where the bonds that the heroes forge in their personal relationships take center stage and their personal problems frequently threaten to overwhelm their desire to do good and leave them in despair instead. Each episode is about overcoming each new challenge on a personal level and the heroes finding that which allows them to carry on doing good and being a hero for the people.

It's a very human story, that's been it's true strength and that's also something that too much emphasis on action is likely to overshadow. Personally I'd rather have this than the anime equivalent of an SFX bonanza (not that I even think the fights have looked bad at all in this show) and if I wanted the latter I'd just step out to my local theatre and partake in what is more than likely to be a souless experience.

[Wakan Tanka]

We'll get to see longer/better fight scenes if T&B gets a second season, given how much it'll sell.

[Kusa-San]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

No offense, but I think you've managed to completely miss the point of this show. This isn't built as a pure big budget action series, it's built as a deconstruction of the hero archetype, where the bonds that the heroes forge in their personal relationships take center stage and their personal problems frequently threaten to overwhelm their desire to do good and leave them in despair instead. Each episode is about overcoming each new challenge on a personal level and the heroes finding that which allows them to carry on doing good and being a hero for the people.

No offense, but I think it's you who completely miss my point I don't want T&B to be a pure big budget acton series. I want this serie to have some good fight sometimes. Right now, it's not the case. You can do what you said with good fighting scenes sometime too.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

No offense, but I think it's you who completely miss my point I don't want T&B to be a pure big budget acton series. I want this serie to have some good fight sometimes. Right now, it's not the case. You can do what you said with good fighting scenes sometime too.

Well I'm sorry that this series hasn't met your personal "good fight" quota then.

Though what exactly about where this show is right now that requires "good fights" I fail to understand. Would you have preferred it if Bunny just went to town on Tiger and beat him to within an inch of his life in some overblown combat sequence? Would you have preferred it if the heroes just beat the crap out of each other in some epic fight and then have Maverick just swoop in and clean up for the win? I mean the whole point these past few episodes is that Tiger has been trying NOT to fight the other heroes too much cause they are his friends and he just wants to snap them back to their senses.

This episode sets up a fight with the H-01 near the end and the preview indeed shows that there will be a battle between it and T&B. The time for fighting has come again, so that's what is going to happen. Hopefully that will satisfy your quota.