2011-03-18, 19:58 | Link #221 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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I'd like to point out that even in Higurashi there were characters that didn't get development. Usually because their existence was arbitrary i.e most of the parents and teachers were just parents and teachers. In fact Mion's lack of a scenario was explained by how she's so easy going and doesn't actually have any depth. I expected Jessica to be the same in that respect, and episode 7 surprised me. For most of the characters if he didn't give them development I think it's probably either because he didn't see anything to add, or because he didn't have the time in his 7 expansions to do it. While also inventing scenarios AND giving Beatrice all her character development.
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2011-03-18, 20:12 | Link #222 |
Slashy Slashy!
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: USA
Age: 34
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Adding on to Judoh's thoughts: Having undeveloped characters in your cast isn't a flaw by itself.
There are a lot of very well developed characters in Umineko (5 or 6 at least, maybe more), and that's plenty. It doesn't really make sense to say "Oh, Siesta 00 is undeveloped, what a horrible flaw," because Siesta 00 was given barely any screen time in the first place. It's not like she wasted space in Umineko (and she was mostly a joke character too, but you could use a similar argument for nearly all the undeveloped cast of Umineko). Take any of your favorite pieces of literature or movies or whatever, and compare the number of developed characters to undeveloped. 90% of the time, you'll find that there are only a handful of well-developed characters (or maybe even just one). That's not a problem at all. In fact, trying to develop too many characters can itself turn into a flaw. |
2011-03-18, 21:05 | Link #223 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
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The point I'm trying to get across is that. If ryuukishi had spent less time on his soapbox and more on his characters, the work would have turned out better. I know beforehand how bad this is going to sound, but, he used his ability to generate characters as a crutch for the larger story he was going for. If you can see what i mean by that.
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2011-03-18, 22:42 | Link #225 | |
Slashy Slashy!
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: USA
Age: 34
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I don't know about that, considering I don't think he tried to "get away with" anything. He very clearly wrote what he did intentionally (as per the essay I linked earlier), so it's not like he was hiding anything. You don't use a crutch when your plan is to crash, basically. |
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2011-03-19, 10:41 | Link #226 | |
Just... disturbed.
Join Date: Dec 2009
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2011-03-19, 12:49 | Link #228 |
killed Amanda Palmer
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Sanatarium Island
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For me, Umineko was a satisfying experience. I didn't try to out-think it. I just took it at face value.
I often find that making expectations high leads to disappointment. (Much like idolizing someone, who you then meet. Since they aren't as wonderful as you thought, you get angry and blame them.) The answers he wanted to give were all there. The fact that we're all (yes, me included) upset and have been following the book releases for so long is a testament to his power. Sure, I was disappointed at the "answer." But after I got over it, I realized how much I enjoyed Umineko...and that I now don't know what to do with myself without waiting for the next installment. If Ryukishi screwed up so badly, why bother being upset? He did something right, or else we wouldn't care. Spoiler for Book 7 Spoiler:
Just my opinion. I do so hate seeing other people upset over it. Hope anyone who's upset feels better. |
2011-03-19, 17:53 | Link #229 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
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And as I said, he obviously didn't plan to crash, he just overestimated how clever he was. For crying out loud, that essay looks like one of my rants, and I at least try to avoid looking like I'm talking out of my ass when lecturing on about something. For what I meant by "getting away with", I meant selling that anti-mystery crap. People were drawn so much into the characters that they'll take his preaching at face value, rather than applying critical thinking to it. With Umineko, he'll have succeeded in convincing people of the existence of "anti-mystery" where no such genre exists. A shared delusion. Oh my lord, what he's done is create an entire imaginary genre through the same technique used to create the Golden Land. Son of a bitch, if that was his plan from the beginning, he's a god damn genius. But he's still a hack. But a brilliant hack. Battler is so developed it's a wonder we even know him as anything other than "traditional Shounen protagonist A". The protagonist is generally someone you expect to get some development over an 8 episode work that spans 4 years of development outside of him randomly reacting, acting badass, and then being made a complete fool of by the rest of the cast. |
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2011-03-19, 21:49 | Link #230 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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That aside, isn't that self-fulfilling prophecy to argue like that? "Well he got the development, and he definitely needed it" is the other side of the "he didn't get developed much, but it's not like he was that important anyway" coin.
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2011-03-19, 21:56 | Link #231 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
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In other words, focusing on Hideyoshi wouldn't have illuminated anything about Beato, her situation, or the world she left behind, so he didn't get any real focus.
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2011-03-19, 23:52 | Link #232 | |
Slashy Slashy!
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: USA
Age: 34
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And anyway, if enough people believe a genre exists, then it does exist. That's all a genre is - a commonly agreed upon set of conventions with which to classify various works of art. But that's beside the point, because no one is arguing that anti-mystery is a genre. |
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2011-03-19, 23:57 | Link #233 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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Actually, there are some characters that have had very little development and yet we still have very good characterizations. Think about the people we've had very little background info about.. .say... Gouda.
He's now portrayed by fandom as a bit of a buffoon, a coward, and incompetent except in areas of cuisine. And as far as I've seen this is exactly the characterization from in the game that we all somehow picked up on. (Not to mention we all remember his name.) Contrast this with say... Quigon Jinn.. what was he like, if you even remember his name? How about the small cameo Christopher Walken had in Pulp Fiction, where he carefully explained for about 5 mins where he kept one of the character's father's antique pocket watch? I don't remember the name, but I remember that character. There was no development there what-so-ever and he disappeared off screen and never returned... |
2011-03-20, 01:20 | Link #234 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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And how do you know, anyway? We don't really get to see a lot of her interactions with family members over the years. It's equally possible any of those "undeveloped" people were influential on her. The mere fact that it doesn't appear in the text doesn't mean it never happened.
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2011-03-20, 01:22 | Link #235 |
Slashy Slashy!
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: USA
Age: 34
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If it was important, then Ryukishi would have shown it happening, he's the one who made up the whole universe.
And Kylon99's statement about characterization is dead on. I'm disappointed I didn't raise that point myself. |
2011-03-20, 01:49 | Link #236 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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I thought you said the author was dead? Who cares what he thinks is important. Maybe I think Beatrice's opinions on the suits worn by the Ushiromiya men is critical to understanding her heart. Who are you to tell me otherwise? Maybe I don't feel like I got the complete picture to my satisfaction from what the author himself provided. Who is he to keep that information from me? I'll bet he doesn't even know where to get a plus-size mustard suit in Japan in 1986.
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2011-03-20, 01:58 | Link #237 |
Slashy Slashy!
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: USA
Age: 34
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"Author is dead" means you get to make up what the work means not what the work is. That is still firmly in the domain of the author, heh.
I mean... you're not really suggesting we start criticizing authors for not focusing on minor aspects of their stories which they themselves didn't find important? "Gone with the Wind" was so bad, there needed to be more detailed descriptions about civil war era canons! It could have been important to Scarlett's character! |
2011-03-20, 02:14 | Link #239 |
Slashy Slashy!
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: USA
Age: 34
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Very well then, I suggest you write poor Hideyoshi the character development he so dearly deserves and send your story in to Ryukishi. I'm sure we'll soon be reading "When the Fat Men Cry: My Struggles with Weight Loss and Smoking Addiction".
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