Madoka Magica - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[Snork]

More importantly, they could animate the ending with Homura as the focus, instead of re-using the OP animation.

If we go by what Gen-san said about PMMM deadline issues, such an attempt could have breaken the broadcast schedule without any earthquakes involved. Although they still might go at it for the BD/DVD edition.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

I wonder! You've seen the episode preview for Episode 11: when Madoka says, "Didn't you feel anything while protecting those girls? / Didn't you try to understand how hard it must've been for them?," just who is she talking to? Odds are, of course, it's just Homura, and Madoka is upbraiding her again for her habitual coldness. But Madoka's questions sound to me like much larger ones--she is asking Mephistopheles' questions to God in the Prologue in Heaven of Faust, and Job's questions in the Book of Job. Pure speculation, but maybe she does confront God somehow, whether directly, or in an internal reflection or prayer. As I say, probably not, but who knows?!

That's why I'm serious when I said that.....It really does suggest fate in this universe turns in something's hands....

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

That's why I'm serious when I said that.....It really does suggest fate in this universe turns in something's hands....

How would you feel about that as an ending? I mean, to discover in the last two episodes that everything hinges on a so-far undisclosed agency? I'd be annoyed...

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

How would you feel about that as an ending? I mean, to discover in the last two episodes that everything hinges on a so-far undisclosed agency? I'd be annoyed...

Any ending is fine with me TBH.......As long as it's well executed.

[frubam]

This episode was so painfully wonderful . All of the char's death tug so strongly, especially Madoka's .

So I'm assuming that the time travel is Homura simply going back on the same time and overwriting the previous line as opposed to diverging on a different line.

How is it that upon coming to school on the 2nd timeline, Madoka is already a PM, yet somehow she's not in the 4th/5th timelines?

[Sageblink]

Originally Posted by frubam

This episode was so painfully wonderful . All of the char's death tug so strongly, especially Madoka's .

So I'm assuming that the time travel is Homura simply going back on the same time and overwriting the previous line as opposed to diverging on a different line.

How is it that upon coming to school on the 2nd timeline, Madoka is already a PM, yet somehow she's not in the 4th/5th timelines?

In the 2nd, she wasn't aware that MG turned into witches.
So it was still "cool" to be one.

In timelines 4 and 5, she knew and so she starts her counter-attack on QB to prevent Madoka from making a contract.

[Snork]

So... Homura wakes up about 10 days before her first meeting with Madoka. I wonder, though, if the time of Madoka's contracting varies slightly depending on the circumstances or stays the same? Then it's most likely in the period of, say, a week after Homura enrolls. Most likely through wandering into a barrier and being saved by Mami (AFAIR, only those with magical potential can find their way into a witch's barrier, willingly or not). I doubt Mami would approach her directly otherwise, unless Kyuubey specifically told her to.
If the date of Madoka's first "close" encounter doesn't change, then it should be the very day she met Homura. Seems like Sayaka's presence is a variable here - if she doesn't meet Mami and get exposed to the whole deal, her being uninvolved in TLs 1/2/4 is quite explainable. Madoka wouldn't feel entitled to share this kind of revelation even with a close friend.
I also wonder what happens to Mami in other timelines. Actually, her death in TL2 is debatable - she could have been just knocked out and hurled away somewhere. Timeline 4 doesn't make it clear... well, maybe Madoka met Mami but refused her (and Kyuubey's) offer after Homura's warning? Come to think of it, that could have hit Mami hard enough to lead her to depression. Whereafter she might have either become a witch or die fighting one (don't tell me Homura might have already WITNESSED the Charlotte scenario once )...

[creb]

Originally Posted by frubam

How is it that upon coming to school on the 2nd timeline, Madoka is already a PM, yet somehow she's not in the 4th/5th timelines?

If you hadn't noticed, Homura's first act in those timelines was to kill QB.

Geeze, been so long since we've had a new episode that this thread already has as many views as the Spoiler's and Speculation's thread.

[IronFenix]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

The problem with episode 10: it sets the standard stratospherically high. Episodes 11 and 12 have to surpass the already best anime episode of 2011.

Of course, this may not be a problem at all... looking from a different perspective, this means that Shaft is working their tails off to present something infinitely memorable. I only hope those expectations are met.

I think the greater problem is, however they decide to end the series, I think we are going to be somewhat disappointed.

[Lord of Pandemonium]

Originally Posted by Snork

So... Homura wakes up about 10 days before her first meeting with Madoka. I wonder, though, if the time of Madoka's contracting varies slightly depending on the circumstances or stays the same? Then it's most likely in the period of, say, a week after Homura enrolls. Most likely through wandering into a barrier and being saved by Mami (AFAIR, only those with magical potential can find their way into a witch's barrier, willingly or not). I doubt Mami would approach her directly otherwise, unless Kyuubey specifically told her to.
If the date of Madoka's first "close" encounter doesn't change, then it should be the very day she met Homura. Seems like Sayaka's presence is a variable here - if she doesn't meet Mami and get exposed to the whole deal, her being uninvolved in TLs 1/2/4 is quite explainable. Madoka wouldn't feel entitled to share this kind of revelation even with a close friend.
I also wonder what happens to Mami in other timelines. Actually, her death in TL2 is debatable - she could have been just knocked out and hurled away somewhere. Timeline 4 doesn't make it clear... well, maybe Madoka met Mami but refused her (and Kyuubey's) offer after Homura's warning? Come to think of it, that could have hit Mami hard enough to lead her to depression. Whereafter she might have either become a witch or die fighting one (don't tell me Homura might have already WITNESSED the Charlotte scenario once )...

Homura killed the witch herself in that time-line so there was no need for Mami to save Modoka. So I am assuming they never met in the fourth reiteration because Homura killed the witch before Mami would have shown up. They only met in the fifth reiteration because Homura was chasing Kyubey instead of the witch

Sayaka also got involved because Homura attacked Kyubey which actually resulted in him coming in contact with Madoka. Instead of preventing their meeting her attacking him facilitated it.

In the first reiteration...Madoka had only met Mami a week before that. So I am assuming it was when Mami saved her that they met. Homura had no power then so she was saved by Mami and Madoka...

Homura is a magical girl in the other time-lines and seems that her actions directly affect what happens in all but the first one because she is a Puella Magica instead of a normal. It is because she told them the truth before Sayaka turns into witch that Mami snaps and kills Kyouko and tries to kill the others. Every time she goes back in time, she makes the situation even worse

[Snork]

They only met in the fifth reiteration because Homura was chasing Kyubey instead of the witch

But she apparently did the same in TL4, albeit more successfully. If Mami never really witnessed her white plush "friend" become Swiss cheese, Homura was rather lucky. I had an impression that Mami lives there and monitors the situation - she's not a recent newcomer like Kyouko. And then a transfer student from a junior year turns out to be a Puella Magi even Kyuubey can't say anything definite about, and this Puella Magi goes around killing every witch in sight. That makes the probability of Mami and Homura meeting very high.

Btw, there's some fridge logic in Homura's Kyuubey-hunting... Homura's powers work like freezing time and episode 8 shows spectacularly that Kyuubey is vulnerable to these powers. Come to think of it, chasing shouldn't even be an option here. Magic conservation? Probably, but Kyuubey is a much more important... and much SLOWER target than, say, a truck.
Kyuubey is known to teleport as well, but he didn't seem to be doing that much in ep 1 (huh, could he have calculated the odds already?).

It is because she told them the truth before Sayaka turns into witch that Mami snaps and kills Kyouko and tries to kill the others.

Honestly, I believe Mami would snap regardless. Not only she lost her family, she may also [secretly] blame herself for not using the wish to save them all (remember her saying that she would have chosen her wish more carefully if asked again). They died, but she lived on - and she might be needing some justification for this, some REASON to live. Being a hero of justice was quite a passable one. Remember episode 2 - while Kyuubey confirmed everything about witches hunting humans and all (it was "not untrue", after all), who was painting a magical girl's life in Batman colors? Mami. Because that was the only picture of the system she had and could accept. Learning that she would eventually become a witch herself and start killing people as easily as she had been saving them, that in the end she left her family behind only to become a potential monster... I think you get the point.

Nonetheless, it was most likely Mami's reaction that led Homura to drop the Cassandra tactic. Otherwise, as she got to know more about Kyuubey, she could turn the tide anytime. The white twerp technically never technically lies, right? Interview him in front of the girls: "What exactly happens if a Soul Gem is tainted beyond purifiable?" There can only be one answer, and none of the girls would be too happy to hear the news. But it's possible that Homura wanted to keep Mami from ever learning that again. That's how she came to speak in terribly vague statements.

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Snork

Btw, there's some fridge logic in Homura's Kyuubey-hunting... Homura's powers work like freezing time and episode 8 shows spectacularly that Kyuubey is vulnerable to these powers. Come to think of it, chasing shouldn't even be an option here. Magic conservation? Probably, but Kyuubey is a much more important... and much SLOWER target than, say, a truck.
Kyuubey is known to teleport as well, but he didn't seem to be doing that much in ep 1 (huh, could he have calculated the odds already?).

Remember the scene in episode 8, in Homura's apartment, where Homura and Kyoko are planning how to fight WN together? QB shows up, and after a conversation, Homura kicks him out. He leaves by walking through the wall.

In other words, QB can end the chase at any moment he likes, just by going sideways. The whole chase routine is really QB's ploy to garner sympathy from Madoka. He certainly plays it up to the hilt, too.

Originally Posted by Snork

Nonetheless, it was most likely Mami's reaction that led Homura to drop the Cassandra tactic. Otherwise, as she got to know more about Kyuubey, she could turn the tide anytime. The white twerp technically never technically lies, right? Interview him in front of the girls: "What exactly happens if a Soul Gem is tainted beyond purifiable?" There can only be one answer, and none of the girls would be too happy to hear the news. But it's possible that Homura wanted to keep Mami from ever learning that again. That's how she came to speak in terribly vague statements.

Even when QB is asked a direct question, he can still say nothing of consequence. There's the scene in episode 2, where Sayaka asks him "Are [witches] different from magical girls?" He answers, "If magical girls are born from wishes, then witches are born from curses." We know the straight answer of course, but QB weasels around it.

[CrowKenobi]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

Remember the scene in episode 8, in Homura's apartment, where Homura and Kyoko are planning how to fight WN together? QB shows up, and after a conversation, Homura kicks him out. He leaves by walking through the wall.

I got the impression that QB travels through the shadows since in that scene he appears and disappears through one, and in episode 8, he appears near Madoka in the shadow of a light pole.

[Seihai]

I also believe Kyubei travels through shadows.

Originally Posted by Vanish

About Incubator: it is strongly implied that he travels by shadows.
1) He infiltrated Homura's room through a shadow, and left the same way
2) He appeared before Madoka through a shadow
3) The new Incubator, after one of the lights were deliberately turned off (his doing?), appeared close to the same spot in a pitchblack shadow
4) In episode 4, right before he appears before Sayaka, an unnatural sound is heard. Also, the sunset was present which fortunately is a good time for shadows
5) Unrelated but at the end of episode 8, it can be reminded that such a high place is not at all bright, it only seems so because you see the lights way down

[Kanon]

Kyubey teleports, and it has nothing to do with shadows as far as I can tell. Rewatch the scene where he offers Homura the contract. You can see him slowly appearing out of nowhere.

[Snork]

^ it would make even more sense to freeze him in place. However, Homura doesn't do that during that chase. Likewise, she doesn't just "stop" the truck and takes her time walking up to it, neither does she freeze Octavia for long (when Kyouko is preparing her kamikaze omnislash, she is seen moving again), and in the battle with Walpurgis Night she only uses her power to dodge whatever is thrown at her - while keeping the witch freezed could have probably turned the tide significantly. All of these bits hint that time acceleration/slowdown takes a very considerable amount of magic to use. Burning out the whole Soul Gem would end Homura's entire crusade for good, and while she does seem to harvest a bunch of grief seeds ever since going solo on the local witchdom, she still needs to be really careful about using her magic.

Another explanation for Kyuubey chase could be that Homura's powers, like Mami's Tiro Finale, cannot be spammed. When she kills Kyuubey for the first time in TL5, we hear him gasping - it hints that she DID stop time and then seemingly appeared out of thin air before him. As another copy shows up immediately after, she's forced to chase him since she can't use her powers again so soon.

The latter option has a major flaw: it's subverted by a number of other cases where Homura seems to be using "flash step" (basically using her powers several times in a row). Still, either of these options suggest that as a Puella Magi per se, Homura is unfortunately not all that effective. Which makes her efforts to stand alone against Walpurgis Night painfully futile. Even if she gets to melee range past all these skyscrapers, how many explosives does it take to take down a witch like this? Man, we're still coming back to nuke necessity...

[CrimsonSunshine]

This whole thing is getting hard for me to follow. But this episode showed a whole new side to Madoka Magica, to me. I knew it was horrifying, but I didn't expect there to be something of a groundhog day loop. It reminds of something...I definitely see Homura through a whole new set of eyes now.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Kyubey teleports, and it has nothing to do with shadows as far as I can tell. Rewatch the scene where he offers Homura the contract. You can see him slowly appearing out of nowhere.

I won't be surprised if the b*stard is somehow present throught the entire place....

interesting though how causuality still affects him.

[Snork]

Even when QB is asked a direct question, he can still say nothing of consequence. There's the scene in episode 2, where Sayaka asks him "Are [witches] different from magical girls?" He answers, "If magical girls are born from wishes, then witches are born from curses." We know the straight answer of course, but QB weasels around it.

Come to think of it, you have a point. The direct question concerning Soul Gems is more, well... direct. But when asked, Kyuubey could actually answer "You'll die if it's tainted to the end" and again be technically right. Details omitted.
Ok, then what about a general question? "Kyuubey, is it true that a magical girl becomes a witch once her Soul Gem has darkened enough?" Try weaseling out of that one, you little white Mephisto-kun.

[hyperborealis]

QB is regularly standing in the shadows. The first time we see him, he is watching the girls at school from within the shadows of a shrub. Then of course there is that striking scene in episode 8, at the park, where the light from the streetlamp turns, to reveal QB out of the shadow of darkness.

Of course the anime does this to buff his bad guy creds. But I wonder if there is more to it than that?

Originally Posted by Snork

Ok, then what about a general question? "Kyuubey, is it true that a magical girl becomes a witch once her Soul Gem has darkened enough?" Try weaseling out of that one, you little white Mephisto-kun.

That would work, but you would have to know the truth before you could ask this question. Good luck on that one...