Macross Frontier 2nd Movie: Sayonara no Tsubasa

[Goty]

Originally Posted by BaKaBaKaOtaKu

WTF was that ending?

Spoiler:

i'm so disappointed how it ended.. i hate 3somes especially when i don't even favor the other girl. this works for me if i can't really decide bet. them. BUt WTF! it must've been just sheryl! DX i love sheryl so much... and fU alto for ogling at ranka!! cheater!

Err, i think you got something wrong..

Spoiler:

There's no threesome at all, i suggest you re-read the spoilers. The triangle is resolved, just not consumed (yet?).

[Thess]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Well, yes,

Spoiler for hm...:

perhaps the credits were in favor of Sheryl, but Ranka was labeled as the heroine. After all, Ranka SAVES Sheryl in Ep25 and the whole Frontier by helping them connect with the Vajra and take down Galaxy. She became the "main character" by doing all of this.

But I hated that someone said Ranka was selfish, only saying "Alto this, Alto that..." Ranka wanted to stop the bloodshed when she left with the Vajra. Her confession to Alto was like a "goodbye."

As for Sheryl being more popular and overshadowing her, yes; she did. One of the reasons I like Ranka is because I FEEL like her. You never know what it's truly like to be in the shoes of someone who doesn't really have appeal like Ranka, always considered a child. I'm 19 yet I look 15. It's horrible to be treated like that.
A little thing that ticked me off was someone at this thread is that Ranka should never have Alto. Can we just say we are happy for whatever ship sails? Honestly, even if you don't get the end you want (and I have calmed down about that), you can't do anything about. It is what Kawamori chose in the end and we have to accept it. Someday, we'll look back and have a fun laugh at this.

But to state one final thing: I've been a Ranka fan since day Ep1. And an AruRan fan since Ep3's intimate moment between them in Griffith Park. It is not the body that I'm looking at, but Ranka's ability to lift him into the sky with just her song. That gives him wings. I support it.

Spoiler for offtopic:

Sheryl saves Ranka first. Alto was ready to nuke her. Sheryl's songs also helped the Vajyra to understand humans. It was thanks to Sheryl's earring they were all connected -- the earring ALTO wore who CONNECTED both women. It was a group effort.

Ranka saving Sheryl's life had to do with a redemption from the consequences of her shortcomings (not caused by malice, mind you, but sheer naivety and lack of short-sight aka stupidity) rather than being 100% heroic (their duet afterwards, now THAT was badass, like her entrance in episode 12). After all, Sheryl had to speed the process of dying to protect Frontier because Ranka left. Then she had to push herself to the edge, because Ranka got herself captured... It was returning a favor when it's due.

As contrast, MOVIE!Ranka is 100% heroic, helping to break out Sheryl of jail, for one (also Sheryl saves Ranka during this, apparently, I've read a spoiler that she's pushing her to Alto to spare her to be sucked into space - Sheryl gets sucked with Ozma. Both are saved by Ai-Kun?).

Anyway, saving humanity didn't make Minmay the main character or Mao when she ended out taking up her sister's role. Please, get yourself some Macross Context. Shin was still the main character as was Hikaru. :P Although the female characters (or ALL sides of the triangle) are far more popular, I'll say. Minmay (Flash Back + DYRL version) happens to be my favorite character in Macross, but I never wanted her with Hikaru.

It remains the cold fact that had Ranka be the main character she wouldn't be third when the credits rolled. Although, I happen to find Sheryl AND Ranka more compelling than our protagonist Alto.

Ranka was indeed self-centered, in episodes 19-20. But in episode 21, she grew out of that. Sadly her mission was... simply poorly planned, which is another of her flaws. I don't quite blame her, but the episodes foiled her with Sheryl, unfortunately, who did the selfless-right thing. One dying girl, standing up for people's sake, finding strength to soothe them regardless. One perfectly healthy girl, unable to find strength to sing now her delusions of romance are gone. She wants to die... over a broken heart. They contrasted... and it hurt Ranka's popularity that her rival was a singer, sadly. Had Sheryl be a pilot or a bridge bunny or whatever else, I assure you Ranka wouldn't be so criticized. Sometimes unfairly so (TV!Ranka is not my favorite character, but I don't dislike her. I also happen to love her movie self).

The grow up woman vs girl-still-growing is a popular theme for the Macross triangles.

Er, you're projecting in her. Don't take it as personal. She's not real...

Secondly, I don't mind the pairing with Alto (in particular in movieverse). The reason why the TV series dynamics appear so underwhelming sometimes (to me - besides the cringeworthy wardrobe they dress her with, which thankfully was removed movie wise) is because Alto... doesn't seem to make any true effort for Ranka, to be honest. While he makes great sacrifices for Sheryl's sake.

Sheryl comes off more concerned about Ranka's fate than Alto in the end, but I'll take Sheryl/Ranka over Alto/any of the girls. So the movie ending pleased me.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Spoiler for Re: meeting:

So basically Alto and Sheryl are the childhood friends that were actually somewhat fortunate?

Spoiler for spoiler:

Well, we can't have one of the most egregious anime clichés unfulfilled in a Macross movie: Whomever sees the romantic target first, wins.

[moncikoma]

Is it

Spoiler for alto fate:

is it possibble for alto to go back to sheryl?
No one ever come back, mao, shin, minmay, hikaru, misa... If he can warp back to sheryl he must ask the vajra queen permission... And that is wierd, so unlikely...T T ... So the only thing that can connecting them both is the earrings... I hope alto still have it with him.... So maybe sheryl can go and locate him herself using some new technology..

It feels like yuna and tidus ending ...

[cheesie]

Spoiler:

What I love about the ending isn't just the love triangle being resolved in such a spectacular way - there's something about a love being realized, just before the two characters were torn apart that just gets to me like no other pairings could. When sugar-happy endings would usually make me smile in satisfaction over its closure before I push them to the back of my mind, revisiting them with a fraction of the interest that I had formerly held, Frontier's ending does the opposite : it's making me question it endlessly, hounding my thoughts, driving me absolutely bonkers. I know! I love it too.

In the past four years of rampant speculations and squabbling over Girl A and Girl B, I had little doubt the series was going to end with an Alto x Sheryl ending - and that it was going to be a tragic one. With Kawamori as the helmsman, there seems to be an unspoken understanding that it is a much dreaded ingredient in the romance stories he weaved, so much that to not expect it is like thrusting yourself in the battle front-lines and wondering why you're being pelleted with bullets. As you're going down. With blood spewing out of you.

And naturally, in the end, Alto x Sheryl it was, and it comes ready with tears and separation for the two lovers at the height of their love - it does not get any more tragic than that. And yet, on the other side, there lies a glimmer of hope as well, a promise of a reunion even though the franchise has officially concluded, and I would imagine many feelings and emotions being poured once it does happen. This series does that aggravating thing of giving the seal of approval for both of them, only to hide them away and then saying they have THISMUCHCHANCE of reuniting with each other. (Connected earrings? Check. Mouth twitching? Check. ...Damn you.)

It's awesome and infuriating, and all that.

The series nearly lost me. I was ready to call it quits because I didn't care about the inconclusive ending of the TV series, the constant tease between the two girls, and certainly not the happy OT3 rainbows in promotions and splashes. But then, this awesome thing happened, the love triangle got really fired up and heading straight to the cliffs, and giving Alto a chance to pick up where his and Sheryl's chemistry left off in the first movie, and suddenly, I'm hooked.

It's going to be a hell of a wait for the second movie release, but I would imagine during this time, I'd be musing and pondering with fellow fans over this very recent 'Tragic Lovers' label that Alto and Sheryl were crowned with. Have I mentioned I love bittersweet endings?

[magnuskn]

Bittersweet endings are about the most overwrought and overused cliché in anime to me.

[Natsuki Hyuga]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Bittersweet endings are about the most overwrought and overused cliché in anime to me.

On the contrary, Maggie. Most people just don't know to end things properly, and say "screw this, have an effing happy end people, and let this series end. Happy nao?" Good, bittersweet end is so rare these days--I can count it with my hands per year if that's anything.

plus You can't say it is cliched if there are tons of happy ends flying in the sky compared to the end that made your heart broke with twinkle of hope

And if you're watching Madoka, you know deeeeeeeeep in your heart, there is this nagging feeling it just don't gonna end as well as you think, yo

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Natsuki Hyuga

On the contrary, Maggie. Most people just don't know to end things properly, and say "screw this, have an effing happy end people, and let this series end. Happy nao?" Good, bittersweet end is so rare these days--I can count it with my hands per year if that's anything.

plus You can't say it is cliched if there are tons of happy ends flying in the sky compared to the end that made your heart broke with twinkle of hope

And if you're watching Madoka, you know deeeeeeeeep in your heart, there is this nagging feeling it just don't gonna end as well as you think, yo

Madoka is pretty much a given. But let's take a look at what I got on my HD drive at this moment in bittersweet endings. Blood+, Fate/Stay Night, Macross Zero, Escaflowne, Trinity Blood, Utawarerumono.

Sure, that ain't all of the anime I've seen over the last years, but there is really a pretty obvious pattern that a tons of anime endings are bittersweet, to the point that I personally see that as the clichéd ending.

I will say that with some shows of that little list the ending felt "earned", but there are cases where it is just put on top of the show, without much sense of it being there. Escaflowne comes to mind.

For me the second Frontier movie definitely doesn't feel, from what I've read, like it worked up to this kind of ending. It just...happened. And that doesn't sit right with me.

---

On another topic, anybody know what the reception of the movie has been so far on Japanese blogs and messageboards? The one person who said anything about that conveyed that the opinion was going in the direction of "WTF was that ending? Boooo!"

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

For me the second Frontier movie definitely doesn't feel, from what I've read, like it worked up to this kind of ending. It just...happened. And that doesn't sit right with me.

Personally i think it's better if you wait and see the movie and it's ending for yourself before you make such a judgement. For all we know your opinion on the matter could do a complete 180.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Shiroth

Personally i think it's better if you wait and see the movie and it's ending for yourself before you make such a judgement. For all we know your opinion on the matter could do a complete 180.

I am going off the summaries we got by now. It definitely doesn't read like a greek tragedy waiting to happen.

[moncikoma]

Originally Posted by cheesie

Spoiler:

What I love about the ending isn't just the love triangle being resolved in such a spectacular way - there's something about a love being realized, just before the two characters were torn apart that just gets to me like no other pairings could. When sugar-happy endings would usually make me smile in satisfaction over its closure before I push them to the back of my mind, revisiting them with a fraction of the interest that I had formerly held, Frontier's ending does the opposite : it's making me question it endlessly, hounding my thoughts, driving me absolutely bonkers. I know! I love it too.

In the past four years of rampant speculations and squabbling over Girl A and Girl B, I had little doubt the series was going to end with an Alto x Sheryl ending - and that it was going to be a tragic one. With Kawamori as the helmsman, there seems to be an unspoken understanding that it is a much dreaded ingredient in the romance stories he weaved, so much that to not expect it is like thrusting yourself in the battle front-lines and wondering why you're being pelleted with bullets. As you're going down. With blood spewing out of you.

And naturally, in the end, Alto x Sheryl it was, and it comes ready with tears and separation for the two lovers at the height of their love - it does not get any more tragic than that. And yet, on the other side, there lies a glimmer of hope as well, a promise of a reunion even though the franchise has officially concluded, and I would imagine many feelings and emotions being poured once it does happen. This series does that aggravating thing of giving the seal of approval for both of them, only to hide them away and then saying they have THISMUCHCHANCE of reuniting with each other. (Connected earrings? Check. Mouth twitching? Check. ...Damn you.)

It's awesome and infuriating, and all that.

The series nearly lost me. I was ready to call it quits because I didn't care about the inconclusive ending of the TV series, the constant tease between the two girls, and certainly not the happy OT3 rainbows in promotions and splashes. But then, this awesome thing happened, the love triangle got really fired up and heading straight to the cliffs, and giving Alto a chance to pick up where his and Sheryl's chemistry left off in the first movie, and suddenly, I'm hooked.

It's going to be a hell of a wait for the second movie release, but I would imagine during this time, I'd be musing and pondering with fellow fans over this very recent 'Tragic Lovers' label that Alto and Sheryl were crowned with. Have I mentioned I love bittersweet endings?

hmmmm... i agree it is the best ending i can think of...
it's so deep and really touching...

i just feel hard to let it end like that...at least for once i want to see sheryl smile, and keep singing... just like minmay sing DYRL before the ending...it just not enough words or song for a goodbye messege......
sayonara no tsubasa is the new song...but it doesnt count...because she sings with ranka..

what i mean is...MF need an iconic song just like DYRL...and what song is it?
there is none...because sheryl herself is the song..
but maybe it is different ... we cant compare it with DYRL. >.<

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by moncikoma

hmmmm... i agree it is the best ending i can think of...
it's so deep and really touching...

Really? What's so "deep" about it? Saying "rocks fall, everyone dies" at the end of a roleplaying campaign is known as "bad GM'ing" where I come from. That's basically what Kawamori did to two of the triangle protagonists.

[moncikoma]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Really? What's so "deep" about it? Saying "rocks fall, everyone dies" at the end of a roleplaying campaign is known as "bad GM'ing" where I come from. That's basically what Kawamori did to two of the triangle protagonists.

i think it is deep because there is this hope "thing" ...

it is a true happy ending...but we need to use our imagination to see it through...

kawamori dont want to tell us that straight...
because it is more artistic that way..... he is cruel..to us sheryl fans ....i hate it too..

i think it would be best not to make an OVA to show the happy ending yet for a year or two..or a BD bonus scene..
..because it would ruin the epic moment..

but..i am still happy if an OVA will come out in the next 3 months ...

[Natsuki Hyuga]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Madoka is pretty much a given. But let's take a look at what I got on my HD drive at this moment in bittersweet endings. Blood+, Fate/Stay Night, Macross Zero, Escaflowne, Trinity Blood, Utawarerumono.

Sure, that ain't all of the anime I've seen over the last years, but there is really a pretty obvious pattern that a tons of anime endings are bittersweet, to the point that I personally see that as the clichéd ending.

I will say that with some shows of that little list the ending felt "earned", but there are cases where it is just put on top of the show, without much sense of it being there. Escaflowne comes to mind.

Maggie, you haven't done the comparing the amount part! "Cliched" will generally be accepted if there are so many, to the point of it becoming a predictable moveset if we're talking in Fighting game genre, of the certain behavioural patterns, when compared to all possible ways to do it.

And certainly, I can point out that on the other hand, I can easily find any endings without the bittersweet note for the romance part: (just for last 2 years) MM!!, Amagami all five arcs, Clannad (... I think that was 2 years ago, yes?), Toradora, Kimi ni Todoke (), and still counting...

Although you do can say that these are different genres and all, but my point will still be that most anime endings are not bittersweet if you think about it, and certainly is a far cry from cliched for me. I'm still waiting for UTTER TEAR JERK BAWWWW if you wanna know, since games can do that to me!

It's just feel right for me, this kind of ending I mean, for the end of Frontier saga, and for some reason, it just clicked for me Though hey, I'm oping for extended epilogue on BD release since I'm an optimistic masochist~

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

You're wrong about one thing: Ranka left because at that point in the series, the heartbreak had piled up with the visions of her parents dying, her planet being destroyed, and the lack of seeing either of them for a while; this caused her songs to have the OPPOSITE effect on the Vajra than before. So, taking into consideration the survival of the Frontier, she proclaimed herself the "spy" they were looking for and left. Her idea was that if SHE was the one the Vajra were after, then she would leave the Frontier, praying they'd follow HER and not the Frontier.

I admit, a bit of a stupid decision, but she had heart in it. She sacrificed herself to save everyone aboard the Frontier, hence her past tense in "I loved you" to Alto, saying "goodbye."

That, to say the least, is a very alternative retelling of what really happened.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Sadly, you can't actually say she was stupid. She didn't actually know WHAT the Vajra wanted her for, only that they were affected by her songs and were after her. So, she made the only logical choice and left to end the war by going to the Vajra planet. I find sense and logic as well as selflessness in that choice.

I find that logic had almost nothing to do with her decision to leave.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Alto, however, perceived it rather differently. But no, he was not about to kill her. He doesn't intend to kill her. And actually, the one who changed his mind was himself. He looks at Ranka's portrait and you can see he's having doubts. Technically, if you look at the scene where he says he'll come back to Sheryl, it's a lot like a "goodbye" scene. I think Alto knew it was life or death, hence how Kawamori loves to give the feel of a REAL war being waged. Think of 300 if you will for this logic.

That also is a very alternative reading to what happened in the series.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

But as a final word, I kinda have to pinpoint this out, but didn't it seem odd to you that the same scene was repeated? But instead of it being Sheryl, it was Ranka.
The scene that Ranka confesses to Alto and he rejects her, she says "don't tell me or I won't be able to sing" is the same as Sheryl's. But instead of a kiss (which Alto did not move in Ep25 for Sheryl), she says "promise me" and he actually hugs her. I figure this is Kawamori's way of saying "both of you get a go." I also see this as kinda a troll move, because honestly he has Alto say he loves Sheryl a few seconds/minutes later. That makes it looked quite rushed to me. From one romantic scene to the next... really doesn't sound right.
Also, I don't understand why they released the artbook for Ranka unless they wanted us to break down and go "WHAT!? She didn't win!?" and then throw the books out like "f*** you, Kawamori!" Honestly, they did kinda take us Ranka fans up and then drop us like a rock. For one thing, that kinda hurts ALL of our feelings.

PS: Plus, AruSherri fans in Japan were NOT happy. I have a feeling that Kawamori's inbox is full of hate e-mails saying "why this ending...!" with crying faces. You see, not just AruRan fans were affected.

I think if we want to further discuss this, let's move it to the Ranka thread, we are way OT here in this section. I might not be at my best, though, it seems I catched a nasty cough and I need to leave the house in a few hours, anyway.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

I kinda also agree with you magnuskn. From what I've read and heard about the movie, both movies don't really work up to "let's kill some of the main characters now!" It didn't seem like it should be that way. The ending happened out of the blue. Which is why I say Kawamori was rushed and also didn't really want to do AruSherri as an ending because you mostly got your AruSherri in Ep22-24. Honestly, Kawamori seemed to put that "I love--" *shot* part in a way-too-convenient-to-be-realistic place. So, I'm gonna stick with my earlier post that Kawamori felt rushed and went with what the studio wanted, to do AruSherri and gain more money.

Should I have put spoilers around that too?

As this is a spoiler for the movie, yes, you should. I draw different conclusion from you, however, about the bittersweet ending of the second movie. More in the vein of "haha, screw you fans, because I am Kawamori!" Not because of an anti- SxA agenda.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by moncikoma

i think it is deep because there is this hope "thing" ...

it is a true happy ending...but we need to use our imagination to see it through...

kawamori dont want to tell us that straight...
because it is more artistic that way..... he is cruel..to us sheryl fans ....i hate it too..

i think it would be best not to make an OVA to show the happy ending yet for a year or two..or a BD bonus scene..
..because it would ruin the epic moment..

but..i am still happy if an OVA will come out in the next 3 months ...

Given that this ending kinda duplicates other endings in the Macross franchise, I don't think it is even near a "true happy" ending. Given the evidence of what happened to Hikaru, Misa, Minmay and Shin, I think we will never get a true resolution.

Originally Posted by Natsuki Hyuga

Maggie, you haven't done the comparing the amount part! "Cliched" will generally be accepted if there are so many, to the point of it becoming a predictable moveset if we're talking in Fighting game genre, of the certain behavioural patterns, when compared to all possible ways to do it.

And certainly, I can point out that on the other hand, I can easily find any endings without the bittersweet note for the romance part: (just for last 2 years) MM!!, Amagami all five arcs, Clannad (... I think that was 2 years ago, yes?), Toradora, Kimi ni Todoke (), and still counting...

Although you do can say that these are different genres and all, but my point will still be that most anime endings are not bittersweet if you think about it, and certainly is a far cry from cliched for me. I'm still waiting for UTTER TEAR JERK BAWWWW if you wanna know, since games can do that to me!

It's just feel right for me, this kind of ending I mean, for the end of Frontier saga, and for some reason, it just clicked for me Though hey, I'm oping for extended epilogue on BD release since I'm an optimistic masochist!

It all depends on what shows one has watched over the years. For me, the bittersweet and non-conclusive stuff has far outweighed in its number the series which were had a proper ending. Hence me seeing clichés at work.

And as I said, many of those shows "earned" their bittersweet ending, but a few did not. The second Macross movie seems to be in the second category.

[moncikoma]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Y

PS: Plus, AruSherri fans in Japan were NOT happy. I have a feeling that Kawamori's inbox is full of hate e-mails saying "why this ending...!" with crying faces. You see, not just AruRan fans were affected.

if they are not happy....it is good news....
means kawamori will have no choice but to make a FINAL APOLOGY CONCERT at budokan + a special 20 minute OVA...sold exclusively @the event...

@magnu

i think shin x mao nome
hikaru x misa

Spoiler for uh:

now that i think of it...MF had it worst...they are not die or missing together...they are seperated..even worse

WE need an interview from kawamori quick..!

[Crimrui]

Kyaaa!!! So everything is finally resolved! Don't know why but somehow the smell of victory can be felt when I try to breath in very deep :3

Wait, what happens to me Brera? Someone spoil me please? Don't make me venture few pages behind, it's painful, ya!

[Natsuki Hyuga]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

It all depends on what shows one has watched over the years. For me, the bittersweet and non-conclusive stuff has far outweighed in its number the series which were had a proper ending. Hence me seeing clichés at work.

And as I said, many of those shows "earned" their bittersweet ending, but a few did not. The second Macross movie seems to be in the second category.

We'll have to agree to disagree then, since we're talking with personal experiences in this matter

And I'll say this though, whether it is "earned" Though honestly I dunno what earned here means since you know, subject differences in liking something or not, don't judge it with just the summary first, see it with your own eyes first and feel the effect of the movie.

And even if you're sad later, I think our nitpicky, manipulator Queen of Fail cheesie will be happy to try to force some of her pseudo boytoys to cheer you up... Somehow. Eep.

[Swampstorm]

Hm. As a general rule, whenever you see someone tout a character as "the most important," just mentally addend a "to me" just after. You'll spare yourself a lot of unnecessary arguments that way.

Spoiler for Ending summary thoughts:

While I can't comment on the tone of the movie, having not watched it, I'm still unclear as to why it's considered bittersweet. Unless there's an implied death somewhere in there, of course.

I like what I've read for two reasons. First, the story seems to definitively resolve the main relationship question that it presumably set out to answer. Second, it leaves us with fresh questions, which is an important part of any ongoing franchise. A lot of stories seem to be using non-resolution as a means of keeping plot threads going, as of late, so this is a refreshing change.

By the way, magnus, surely in all your searches through TVtropes you must have come across the concept of "Shipping Bed Death"? One of the worst things that you can do to a pairing is to end it for good.