2012-11-29, 14:55 | Link #81 |
sleepyhead
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For them to "be in the way" there needs to be a plan. As it is, the fodder just saved Naruto's arse. You are thinking too much in narrative absolutes rather then story context. They were pretty much done for at that moment.
If we want to talk narrative, them being there is a good thing. It adds color. If we had to go though the battle forward with the current beat up to hell crew stupid things would start to happen; at least this is somewhat legitimate nakama power. Just look at DBZ for examples of what happens when you got long solo battle—it's virtually inevitable. You then have Bleach for an example of happens when you write your protagonist as the all-purpose-nut-cracker. Given the magnitude of forces involved, Kishi is balancing it really well so far; even if we may not be exactly thrilled by the authorial sacrifices involved.
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2012-11-29, 15:10 | Link #82 | |
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I'm not thinking in narrative absolutes nor story context. I am thinking logically (which is my first and last problem I guess). You don't put your forces directly in the line of fire (unless there are extraordinary circumstances). |
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2012-11-29, 16:34 | Link #83 | |
Circus Clown
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There won't be as much of a change of the system… Murder is murder after all. Most of the time, you are a bright person, I suppose. But you know, light travels faster than sound. That's why people often appear bright until they speak.
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2012-11-29, 16:45 | Link #84 | |
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It seems that the alliance's plan for now is to hide Bee and Naruto acting as some kind of large meat-shield But there has to be also a plan to make some offensive move that is usefel against a demon otherwise their optimism would be rather stupid. I guess in the next chapter we will see the alliance executing some sort of plan that either Shikamaru or Shikaku prepared while they were traveling towards Naruto. But most importantly the author showed us that Naruto has listened to and understood Itachi's words and he is willing to work with the whole alliance instead of trying to do it alone. |
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2012-11-29, 16:51 | Link #85 | |
sleepyhead
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All they know is, (1) the big bad army is defeated (2) all the kages are potentially defeated (3) the "remaining" enemy is where naruto is; with potentially very little to go on how dangerous the enemy is. OR They think Naruto is fighting the Akatsuki leader and the kage's are still fighting Madara. Either case, if depiction of previous ninja wars are anything to go by, in Kishi's ninja world throwing a lot of ninja's at something is standard military practice. Military command didn't exactly seem like it was in very much control either. So one would assume the entire army moving there, on it's own accord is also a strong possibility. Also, the combined forces were pretty tight together for the last god knows how many chapters anyway, what reason would they have to split up. If there's anything illogical about the entire thing is them showing themselves; more precisely the ones not directly involved showing themselves. Though I assume that can be explained as simply there being no point to hiding and it being easier to watch each others back and coordinate attacks this way. No reason to hide if you're on the offensive, and defense is not really an option with nukes everywhere.
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2012-11-29, 17:27 | Link #86 |
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^What's the point of having an entire surprise attack division if you do not use them for their intended purpose? Or the Special forces division? Or even the Long-Range Battle Division (who, theoretically, should keep their distance in the battlefield)? There was no reason to send the entire armed forces into a battlefield without first knowing what is going on (and if they went of their own volition, then they are supremely stupid).
This is not a "bird's eye view" scenario, it is simple common sense. I did not get that, so thanks for the clarification. And yes, it is cool that she combined techniques with Hinata to "capture" Obito (however briefly)... |
2012-11-29, 17:46 | Link #87 |
sleepyhead
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Naruto is fighting, why would they send recon? Analyse how bad he's losing before moving in? For all we know they did actually send forward scouts, since they did came in relatively prepared to (in their mind) win; and they're position looked good (hills to fallback on, some high ground advantage, etc).
At the moment the situation is such that if Naruto & Bee lose, they all lose. There's no reason to skimp on forces since there is no "fallback plan". If Naruto or Bee had lost (since just one is useless) and they charged in with a bad position, they would be in trouble, but it wouldn't matter since they would have lost the war anyway (and everyone knows it). So yeah it's a risk, but doing nothing is the bigger risk; and there's no benefit to it. Also showing force is powerful in itself. Yes, they are weak, but now Madara and Tobi have to think about all the various nonsense that can come at them, and to deal with the numbers have to play in very broad strokes, so while they still have the upper hand, there's room for counter attacks from Naruto and others—since it's already pretty much a given that Naruto and co can't out think Madara on their own in a million years. Regarding the whole stealth aspect. Good luck sneaking in on two sharingan users perched over the most colossal behemoth in existence.
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2012-11-29, 17:59 | Link #88 |
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^I'm all for showing overwhelming force. I've said repeatedly now that every large summon beast should be employed (a large Toad division could do wonders right about now). 10,000 soldiers closely grouped together (the entire battlefield is only a mile or two in diameter) are far weaker than a few dozen Summon Beasts fighting the Jyuubi from all sides.
Additionally, why wouldn't the Ambush division be the ideal solution to this encounter? I know ninjas acting like ninjas is a bit unrealistic for this series, but damn if subterfuge wouldn't have been a great help right about now. edit: As for their positioning...well when your opponent can gouge a hole out of the Earth that can be seen from space, the "hills to fall back on" plan doesn't really work... Truthfully, taking down the Jyuubi could require a fairly simple battle plan. Get a small team of fliers in the air to draw the Jyuubi's attention, then get a small team working beneath the ground so that they can immobilize the Jyuubi's movements. Once it can't walk or run, they can start destroying the legs before working their way up the body. Naruto and a select few can be used the fight Madara and Obito (and honestly, Obito is going to fall far sooner than either the Jyuubi or Madara, especially since Kakashi now has full control of Kamui). I do not dispute that Naruto needed extra forces to fight the Terrible Trio, rather I question the logic of using so many soldiers in a field that doesn't require such a number (and honestly is more likely a hindrance). Last edited by james0246; 2012-11-29 at 18:14. |
2012-11-29, 18:15 | Link #89 |
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
Join Date: Jan 2012
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The idea of the army being cannon fodder would work if all they did was stand there.
If they actually do stuff, like moving around and actively attacking, especially if there is some strategy involved, it would be a different story. |
2012-11-29, 18:40 | Link #90 | |||||
sleepyhead
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First of all, they can't immobilize a mountain; the kage's maybe, these guys no. Their proficiency underground is also questionable; we've only seen it applied for sneaking, never for fighting. Secondly, we've already got enough evidence to suggest that sneaking isn't that usable against uchiha's since they can see chackra. Against Madara they might as well run yelling. Quote:
And if you're thinking about explosives, think about how effective the combined force of Naruto & Bee has been so far; and how Madara commented there's no need to even dodge or parry the shots. Quote:
I'm not saying there's not going to be energy wasted in "saving the army's sorry ass", but it's a case of the situation, unfavorable as it may be, still being way better then Naruto and Bee fighting it alone; especially now they're in recharge mode.
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2012-11-29, 19:24 | Link #91 | ||||||||||
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That being said, Naruto and his squad would deal with Madara, and Kakashi would take down Obito, effectively limiting the Uchiha's involvement in the fight. Quote:
Additionally, they are not dealing with the actual Jyuubi, just most of it's chakra in a shell of a body. Quote:
As for destroy...you are correct, that is probably the wrong word to use. Let's just stick with immobilize and incapacitate. Quote:
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That being said, this conversation is becoming cyclical. I am bowing out. Last edited by james0246; 2012-11-29 at 19:34. |
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2012-11-29, 20:21 | Link #92 | |
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Sure those were only 1/5 of the whole army, but the army we see now are also the remains of the 80,000, which was only 40,000 after the 1st day, and then we didn't count how many have been killed by the Zetsu clones and Madara and some other Edo-Tensei guys of Kabuto. The 5 kages did much more damage to Madara than all the others, so i think most of the army is fodder. Then there are elite like Ino and Hinata who can be useful for 2 seconds Of course the generals should be strong, but all these guys can do is resist for a few minutes until the kyuubi and 8-tails regenerate their chakra so Naruto can make his next big move. There are two things that should happen in order for the alliance to survive: the inclomplete 10-tails runs out of chakra and Madara somehow loses interest in this fight or Obito stops him. If it's not Obito who stops Madara then Naruto must get a powerup, otherwise he doesn't have any chance. |
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2012-11-29, 20:53 | Link #93 | |
sleepyhead
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As for the portrayal in the story of their stratagems, behavior and competence as a military unit, I suppose going by our little discussion we can agree it's subjective depending on what you think is possible and what you would consider the correct course of action. Given the manga has run for 600+ chapters we all probably have our own relatively unique view on what is possible; since nothing is really explained in anything but relative terms and visual ques. Quite interesting.
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2012-11-29, 23:39 | Link #94 |
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oh right on. thanks i didn't notice that either. it actually proves my point from last chapter about the juubi's eye (i think). the juubi may just have a normal beast eye, but it has a rinnegan/sharingan because obito summoned it and is controlling it. ino's brief capture proves he is in direct control of its actions like when he controlled the kyuubi with just a sharingan, which was also shown in the kyuubi's eye
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2012-11-30, 07:13 | Link #96 |
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But it has it's own eye pattern, even when the Sage controlled it, not just the regular rinnegan pattern. Of course that doesn't invalidate your idea, which can make sense if we assume that those sharingan-like dots on top of the rinnegan pattern are just added to symbolize the 10 tails the beast has (i think there were 10 dots). I originally didn't take this possibility into account because the difference in the eye pattern and also because when Obito tells the story of the sage and the 10-tails we see the 10-tails with that eye pattern but it's never said that it is under the Sage's control on that manga page.
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2012-11-30, 10:24 | Link #97 | |
The First Rasengan!!
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the sage was BORN with the rinnegan. the juubi (unsealed) has a concentric circles with nine sharingan like tomoe the actual sharingan is a product of the uchiha lineage being born/created of "jinchuriki 10 tail sage" this is what i have been thinking this entire time...
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2012-11-30, 11:19 | Link #98 |
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Where was that mentioned? If i remember correctly the only one who was talking a bit more in depth about the Sage was Tobito at the kage summit. Sure he said that the sage had the rinnegan, but we don't know if he originally had it or he got it only after sealing the 10-tails in himslf. All the information is from the secret Uchiha shrine, so if the author wants he can go both ways. We were led to believe that the rinnegan can manifest in random people like Nagato. But then it was discovered that Nagato never had the rinnegan, so what if neither the Sage was born with it. It's just an idea that has a good chance to be wrong. But i think that if the author wants to make it logical then it's either this or itachi-san314's explanation, simply because both the 10-tails and the sage having the rinnegan at the same time in history completely independently of each other doesn't make sense. Of course the author could create some back story where the 10-tails is an experiment of the Sage gone bad or both the Sage and the 10-tails have been created by someone else (for example they were created by some secret society that knows everything and Sasuke is right now seeking them) but that would mean a new story line which is unlikely in my opinon. Unless the manga needs new topics to continue for more years to come In that case it may be that new characters will be added to the story who are somehow related to the sage (which would make sense since saying that the sage was completely alone while creating the ninja world is nonsense, he at least had to have a wife to have his 2 children). In the end the 3rd logical way to have them both have rinnegan is that their existence was not unrelated, somehow the Sage and the 10-tails were related. Finding more answers about this will probably be Sasuke's job now.
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2012-11-30, 12:31 | Link #99 |
Corrupted fool
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Considering how Kishimoto treats we'll have to wait like 70 chapters to have him come back. No kidding, after Part I's (vol 27) end Sasuke was absent until volume 34. After his big arc and Itachi's death (vols 38-43), he was absent from three volumes, he then got a reappearance during vols 48-52, but did not return until vol 61
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2012-11-30, 15:37 | Link #100 | |
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