Israel, Hamas & the Gaza Strip

[Irenicus]

Originally Posted by Mystery777

I know that. To use "anti-Semitic" in the sense of "against Jews" is in itself wrong, because not all Semites are Jews: the Arabs, for instance, are Semites, too. So calling Arabs who are against Jews "anti-Semitic" is nonsensical.

Acts or statements are genuinely anti-Semitic when they are aimed against the Semitic race in general, or against members of that race BECAUSE they belong to that race.

Not quite. Whatever the etymology, the term "anti-Semitic" used in most cases is indeed a synonym -- heck, the main expression -- for the concept of "anti-Jew" whatever.

"Semitic" as a linguistic and anthropological term has a different meaning as you have said.

Nonetheless, the insane, trollish accusations of anti-Semitism laden against you should obviously be ignored. I'm counting the posts until the mods have to intervene, again, honestly. I'm surprised they haven't done so already given how regularly the hate speech boundary has been pushed and broken through. A few extremists and/or trolls seem to have made this thread their preferred venue of expression.

[LeoXiao]

And as for human life being sacred/precious/priceless: it isn't. Nobody's is. Because there's something called the "costs of living". Pay them or mother nature will deal with you in short order.

That's basically what groups like Hamas say, you fool. Israel came and stole their nation. They tried to get it back. They failed. Then again. And again. Did Israel win because they were on the side of justice or whatever? Hell no. They had US support, that's all.
The Palestinians have been pushed to the edge by all these retarded (and frankly, nazi-like) IDF no-mercy solutions in every aspect of the conflict. Of course, after 50 years, it is obvious (to the people living there) that as long as Israel is still around, Palestinian people are going to suffer and die.

I have no ideas why you say such things. maybe it's for attention. I probably shouldn't respond to such remarks at all.

And as for "those poor, suffering, innocent Palestinians": they elected Hamas. Let them live with the consequences.

who the f*ck do you expect them to elect after all the shit they've had piled on them for 50 years?

Their worldview has been shaped for 50 years by the existence of Israel and its correlation to unfairness (yeah dont say something retarded like the world isnt fair) loaded on the Muslims, who are the people who were living there in the first place.

They elected Hamas. They use civilians as shields. They exaggerate their own deaths.

Any other group of people, when put under such painful circumstances, would do the same thing. The WW2 partisans in Europe and East Asia did the same things. The Mujaheddin did the same against the Soviets.

The same goes for Israel, or any group of people, should they end up on the wrong side. What if the US supported the Arab nations instead? The Israelis would act the EXACT SAME way as Hamas is acting now (and they would have lost due to their country's size).

What would you say if history had turned out like that? I'm pretty sure it would be something like "the Jewish faith is evil I have jewish friend but I still think their religion is evil."

Your whole argument is just based irrationally supporting whatever group has more power.

[Lathdrinor]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Let's stop the technicalities. You know that when someone says antisemitic, they mean anti-Jew. And can you be anti-Jew while having Jewish friends?

The same way I'm rabidly anti-Islamic while having Muslim friends from Saudi Arabia itself. I don't judge people by their taking the positive from the propaganda of a pedophile mass murderer, but if they so wish to be judged by their strict adherence to said propaganda and nothing else, I'll be happy to oblige them.

As for criticizing Israel: yes, it is above criticism. At least on the magnitude it gets. Tell me: where are the rallies and the protests every time there's an attack on Israel? Where are the rallies to stop the genocide in Darfur, the oppression of the Nepalese by the Chinese, and I can go on and on.

Those "protests" are poorly masked antisemitism. The end.

And as for "those poor, suffering, innocent Palestinians": they elected Hamas. Let them live with the consequences.

And as for human life being sacred/precious/priceless: it isn't. Nobody's is. Because there's something called the "costs of living". Pay them or mother nature will deal with you in short order.

Israel gets a lot of "strong words" for its actions but let's face it, when was the last time anybody actually did anything about Israel? Israel can spit in the UN's face and all the UN can do is "be shocked." Ban Ki-Moon might as well have been a beggar on the streets of Seoul for all the difference he made. Excuse the hyperbole, but from the POV of many in the world the only reason Israel stopped the offensive was because Obama was taking office.

This utter flaunting of world authority does enormous damage to the image of the UN and undermines everything the postwar order has tried to build. If we are to return to the days of absolute unilateralism, forget Gaza. We'll all be in deep **** soon enough. What we are witnessing - have been witnessing - is the disintegration of the UN as an organization, much as its predecessor, the League of Nations, disintegrated, and when the UN is gone, when international opinion no longer makes a difference, the only thing left will be power. Hard power.

I hope you're ready for it.

[Mystery777]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

That's basically what groups like Hamas say, you fool. Israel came and stole their nation. They tried to get it back. They failed. Then again. And again. Did Israel win because they were on the side of justice or whatever? Hell no. They had US support, that's all.

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

Exactly. It began that way. But now the US HAS to support Israel. It simply has no other choice, given the strength of the jewish lobby in the US and their support for Israeli gov. Go back in history and watch what happened to each and every US president who decided to even criticize israel.

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

The Palestinians have been pushed to the edge by all these retarded (and frankly, nazi-like) IDF no-mercy solutions in every aspect of the conflict. Of course, after 50 years, it is obvious (to the people living there) that as long as Israel is still around, Palestinian people are going to suffer and die.

The prob with the israeli gov, is that they just can't stay still. They aren't satisfied with the arabs acknowledging them and with the lands they already seized. Instead, they create clever scenarios for more trouble. During the new conflict, they stretch even further in terms of lands while *accidentally* causing massacres and genocides that the world keeps watching until they got used to it.

Where did this term come from: "Great Israel! From Nile to Furat!"

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

Their worldview has been shaped for 50 years by the existence of Israel and its correlation to unfairness (yeah dont say something retarded like the world isnt fair) loaded on the Muslims, who are the people who were living there in the first place.

They elected Hamas. They use civilians as shields. They exaggerate their own deaths.

Any other group of people, when put under such painful circumstances, would do the same thing. The WW2 partisans in Europe and East Asia did the same things. The Mujaheddin did the same against the Soviets.

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

The same goes for Israel, or any group of people, should they end up on the wrong side. What if the US supported the Arab nations instead? The Israelis would act the EXACT SAME way as Hamas is acting now (and they would have lost due to their country's size).

True. But the prob is that the US would NEVER support the Arab nation. You see, the US has strong bonds with the jews that goes back to the first days of America. And yes, in the early days of America, Jewish money helped finance the country’s budget.

Furthermore and ever since, the arabs were always portrayed as the "crazy" people who follow a diff weird religion. Add the 9/11 incident and voila! Arabs are screwed! They like to bomb themselves! they like killing people! they are the new enemy of the whole world! And have you noticed the "terrorist" attacks have increased dramatically in diff parts of the world, ever since 9/11?

[bladeofdarkness]

@LeoXiao
in all your talk about the poor palestinian people who have had their land stolen by the evil US backed,nazi-like, baby eating israelis
did you consider that the simple question of "what are they suppose to do" can be answered in two simple words
give up

that they should except that the lands they lost in 1948 (as a result of their own aggrasion and unwillingness to compremise) are forever beyond their reach
except that israel would ALWAYS be there
except that the west bank and gaza are ALL they are going to get and maybe they should make do with that instead of keeping up the fight for another 60 years

hamas represents the world view that says "if we fight for another hundred years, maybe the jews would pack up and leave"
and its that world view that has kept the palestinian people in the sad state that they have been in during the last 60 years
ditch that mindframe, and you have a palestinain state in five years at the longest

@Lathdrinor
israel can spit in the UN's face (it normally does it with more tact) becosue the UN is patheticly inept and inforcing its deceision
thats why everyone who doesnt want to do what the UN says does what ever they want
i'm all for a stronger UN
just keep in mind that there is a long list of countries that would have to be delt with before you get to israel

@Mystery777

During the new conflict, they stretch even further in terms of lands while *accidentally* causing massacres and genocides that the world keeps watching until they got used to it.

israel has cleverly figured out a plan to re-conquer land that was under israeli control for decades and from which it willingly pulled out of 3 years ago
yeah, that makes sense

[Mystery777]

Originally Posted by Lathdrinor

We'll all be in deep **** soon enough. What we are witnessing - have been witnessing - is the disintegration of the UN as an organization, much as its predecessor, the League of Nations, disintegrated, and when the UN is gone, when international opinion no longer makes a difference, the only thing left will be power. Hard power.

I hope you're ready for it.

That is what I've realized and feared ever since the first time they did it and breached the UN's decisions. Don't recall, but I think it was during the Sharon saga. Ever since, they've spit on the UN numerous times.

[Mystery777]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

"what are they suppose to do" can be answered in two simple words
give up

that they should except that the lands they lost in 1948 (as a result of their own aggrasion and unwillingness to compremise) are forever beyond their reach
except that israel would ALWAYS be there
except that the west bank and gaza are ALL they are going to get and maybe they should make do with that instead of keeping up the fight for another 60 years

and now you've lost common sense. You are literally asking for them to accept injustice. What else do you want them to accept? You want the kids to accept witnessing their relatives being killed infront of them and deal with it? Simply because israel has more power and isn't afraid to show its brutal face to the whole world?

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

ditch that mindframe, and you have a palestinain state in five years at the longest

Should I have not known jewish from israel who are AGAINST what their gov is doing, I would've said all of you are alike. Your comment above represents the exact same mindset of the israeli gov. Kill them, wipe them out and maybe the "remainings" will get the lesson.

Just like what the wife of an israeli diplomat said during an interview ... maybe she is dumb or just drunk at that moment:

"I don't understand! Don't we have one of the strongest military force in the whole world? Why don't we just erase them out of the face of the earth?!"

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

israel can spit in the UN's face (it normally does it with more tact) becosue the UN is patheticly inept and inforcing its deceision
thats why everyone who doesnt want to do what the UN says does what ever they want
i'm all for a stronger UN

Oh! you want a UN that bows down to Israel. Why? Probably because like someone said above, Israel is "above criticism!"

You disappointed me.

[Lathdrinor]

israel can spit in the UN's face (it normally does it with more tact) becosue the UN is patheticly inept and inforcing its deceision
thats why everyone who doesnt want to do what the UN says does what ever they want
i'm all for a stronger UN
just keep in mind that there is a long list of countries that would have to be delt with before you get to israel

Of course it's because of a weak UN - and the UN will not become physically strong anytime soon, because the governments of the world will not have it. But the UN's power is as much symbolic as it is physical. By spitting in the UN's face, Israel is simply eroding what legitimacy it has left.

I'm not saying Israel is the one to blame, but it's part of it. You might not like the fact that the Security Council can veto anything they don't like and protect anyone they choose - but so long as it's kept at that level the Security Council still has power, which means that people will still look to it for answers. But when Security Council resolutions are ignored on a regular basis, it will effectively be meaningless. That's where we're headed.

[bladeofdarkness]

they got offered half the land in 1948 by the UN
they wanted all the land
they tried to take all by force
they lost
they have to settle for half of what they would have gotten before they tried to take everything by force
you want to feel bad for them, go ahead
just remember that it happened becouse they were greedy

or they can sit still for another 60 years and watch the difference in power between them and israel grow deeper
they already cant use their best weapon and have to use rockets that cost more and are infinetly less effective
what do you think their chances would be like in 60 years
"quiters never win and winners never quit"
"but he who never wins and never quits is an idiot"
and anyone who tells them that they should keep fighting is not serving their best interets
settle for what you have and make sure your children get to grow up like normal people rather then refugees

and you havent even seen what israel's brutal face looks like
you probably never will
dont get your shorts in a twist just becouse the world isnt about justice
you said it yourself
what would it be like if the israelis lost
would they have been treated half as well as the palestinians are
dont expect me to feel bad about how they got the short end of the stick, wheni know full well what they would have done if things were reversed

and as for the UN
im all for it being stronger and able to inforce its decesion
it doesnt have to bow down to anyone
it just isnt powerful and wont ever become powerful for a simple reason
its made up of individual countries who have their own interests
and as such, will never agree about anything but the most exteme conditions
imagine what it would take to get russia and the US to agree on something

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Vexx

You keep saying things that aren't really true... both Pakistan and India have common interests with the US. Pakistan is proving a pretty ineffective ally over the last eight years since it won't really take action with the Taliban. Its only an ally by location more than thought, word, or deed. It is easily argued that Pakistan is against us because they harbor so many terrorists bent on the destruction of democracy (even what little democracy Pakistan has).
India, otoh, is more of an effective and real democracy. Like the French and the US, India and the US sometimes disagree but in the whole they make sense to each other more often. They're both our "allies" in the attempt to make terrorism ineffective. Its just unfortunate they waste a lot of time slapping each other.

Back to the topic,
Israel, long ago, made the strategic decision that hostages, captives, or civilians were "already dead" in terms of eliminating terrorists or militants. You can go all the way back to Munich and the Olympic hostages for that doctrine. That seems to be their tenor today if we follow blades line of thought: its tragic there were civilians but we will kill the enemy no matter who is trapped in the way.
My opinion is that leads down a road of moral corrosion. Obviously, others disagree. I would withdraw if I came under fire from a location I knew to have non-combatants/civilians - and find another way. But then I don't subscribe to the strategic axiom I described above.

Actually, the Bayonet ops against Black September minimized innocent deaths Mossad waited until the terrorists families were away then they attacked.

It is only recently with the tactic of airstrikes that collateral damage has begun to mount.

[Lathdrinor]

imagine what it would take to get russia and the US to agree on something

I recognize that. But I also recognize that when the Security Council voted 14-0 (the US abstained) for an immediate end to hostilities in Gaza, Israel refused outright and waited until just before Obama's inauguration to halt hostilities. This is a snub.

It's one thing for the Security Council to disagree. Quite another for the Security Council to be ignored even when they agree. This looks bad for the UN, and it looks bad for Israel.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Actually, the Bayonet ops against Black September minimized innocent deaths Mossad waited until the terrorists families were away then they attacked.

It is only recently with the tactic of airstrikes that collateral damage has begun to mount.

bad metaphor
the beyonet ops were aimed at the heads of black september, which was a small group that was spread around the world in cells
the hamas in gaza is for all intent and purpose a small army
the IDF wasnt trying to just take out the head
it was trying to hurt the body as much as possible as well
so its not really the same thing

@Lathdrinor
it was passed under the wrong chapter
it wasnt the binding one
it was a general "the UN wishs that this and this happens"
it didnt have teeth in it
and everyone knew why it was under that chapter in the UN charter

and besides, since israel is the only side in this conflict that has to listen to the UN anyway
and considering the UN's complete and utter failure to act in the past 8 years
it can disagree with its decesions when it sees fit to do so (provided that its under the right chapter)
the UN was not created to stop nations from going to war when needed

[Cosmic Eagle]

Then wouldn't it make more sense to, once things have cooled down a bit, provide aid to actually help rebuild Gaza and improve infrastructure so that Hamas' authority is weakened?

[bladeofdarkness]

already in the works my firend
already in the works
UN aid isnt the only thing going into gaza right now
israeli doctors israeli supplys
hell theres an entire israeli field hospital set up right outside the strip aimed at taking injured in from the strip

the goal now is to make sure that the hamas doesnt get the money to rebuild the strip but rather the palestinain authority does
that way, hamas would be forced to work with them and share power in the strip in order to rebuild it
and the US,europe,and much of the arab world has joined in that effort to see it happen

[Cosmic Eagle]

Maybe then things will be for the better if Israel and the UN can score a major PR victory here.

[bladeofdarkness]

PR victory
not likely to happen
but thats not what matters at all
the weaker hamas gets, the better things would be for all concerned
especially the palestinain people

[Demongod86]

Originally Posted by Lathdrinor

Israel gets a lot of "strong words" for its actions but let's face it, when was the last time anybody actually did anything about Israel? Israel can spit in the UN's face and all the UN can do is "be shocked." Ban Ki-Moon might as well have been a beggar on the streets of Seoul for all the difference he made. Excuse the hyperbole, but from the POV of many in the world the only reason Israel stopped the offensive was because Obama was taking office.

This utter flaunting of world authority does enormous damage to the image of the UN and undermines everything the postwar order has tried to build. If we are to return to the days of absolute unilateralism, forget Gaza. We'll all be in deep **** soon enough. What we are witnessing - have been witnessing - is the disintegration of the UN as an organization, much as its predecessor, the League of Nations, disintegrated, and when the UN is gone, when international opinion no longer makes a difference, the only thing left will be power. Hard power.

I hope you're ready for it.

The only thing that will be left is power? HARD power?

Well, we here in the states are the ones with the military that gets more funding than the next five nations combined, the ones with the stealth fighters, enough nuclear submarines to erase any nation, the biggest GDP...so yes, PLEASE disband the UN and make it so that might makes right.

As for Palestinians suffering injustice, that's a hoot. Guess what? All the other Arab nations combined have like 10000x the land Israel does. Why don't THEY take their beleaguered brethren in?

BECAUSE NOBODY LIKES THE PALESTINIANS. The end! They're a propaganda tool for Muslims worldwide, and a parasite to the world. That's not opinion. That's simply empiric conclusions.

As for anyone would do what the Palestinians did...last I checked, the Jews in the warsaw ghetto or the gulags didn't go and suicide bomb. So no.

[Lathdrinor]

@Lathdrinor
it was passed under the wrong chapter
it wasnt the binding one
it was a general "the UN wishs that this and this happens"
it didnt have teeth in it
and everyone knew why it was under that chapter in the UN charter

and besides, since israel is the only side in this conflict that has to listen to the UN anyway
and considering the UN's complete and utter failure to act in the past 8 years
it can disagree with its decesions when it sees fit to do so (provided that its under the right chapter)
the UN was not created to stop nations from going to war when needed

The problem is, the public didn't see it that way. The media didn't portray it that way. All they saw was the UN being defied again and again. In time, this could encourage even more states to do the same thing.

As for the UN's purpose - no, the UN was not created to stop nations from going to war when needed. But it was created to stop nations from continuing the war when required. If the UN can't serve this purpose, then we're back to square one.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Actually, the Bayonet ops against Black September minimized innocent deaths Mossad waited until the terrorists families were away then they attacked.

It is only recently with the tactic of airstrikes that collateral damage has begun to mount.

Agreed, I really don't see the value of air strikes over the Mossad. Historically, I've always respected the precision of the Mossad in the cases I've read about.

I've enjoyed my conversation with bladesofdarkness even if we yelled at each other because I think he's thought about the consequences of the actions even if I disagree with his conclusions. I also have enjoyed discussing points of view with Ledgem and the others both pro- and con- who have mulled through the complexities. Not much point to continue for the moment until we see how Hamas reacts to the reconstruction and medical aid if it shuts them out of any credit for it.

Unfortunately, this thread seems to be tainted with little couple of little pathetic boys who mistake their war fantasy films for some kind of way to actually view the world. I doubt they have ever witnessed real violence up close. Either that or they're just as deluded as a Hamas fighter and not much different. It certainly made it difficult to discuss the topic rationally.

[bladeofdarkness]

the UN cant enforce its deceision
when the arab states invaded israel in 1948 the UN did nothing
if the arabs had won then there wouldnt be an israel, and so the UN would not have acted
the UN will inforce any deceision that does not require it do actually DO SOMEHTING in order to inforce it
thats just the way things are
israel didnt make it that way
and it doesnt have to play by rules that no one else plays by
thats the way things are

the mossad is a scarple
sometimes you need a hammer

and i'm done for now (its 5 AM)
good night