[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Sterling01

That's not true as 34's text says only Kanon can use his name, it doesn't say he's only person who can use the name "Kanon".

Spoiler for episode 4, end:

Original line:

嘉音の名を名乗ることが出来るのは本人のみ！異なる人間が名乗ることは出来ない！

and Chrono's translation:

The only one who can use Kanon's name is the person himself. A different human cannot use that name!

It states pretty well that no one else aside of the kanon we know can use such name. Ergo, there is only 1 character named Kanon.
The only loophole would be "kanon" isn't this character name, but it would be completely on the left field considering the syntax (especially considering the reaction of Shannon, Genji and Gohda).

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Original line:
and Chrono's translation:
It states pretty well that no one else aside of the kanon we know can use such name. Ergo, there is only 1 character named Kanon.
The only loophole would be "kanon" isn't this character name, but it would be completely on the left field considering the syntax.

But Kanon has a name other then Kanon

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Sterling01

But Kanon has a name other then Kanon

EDIT: I see, so actually, if we take the line in its literal sense: if Kanon's true name is "X", it means Kanon's name (which is X) can only be used by Kanon.
By this extention, it doesn't have any effect to "kanon", just "X" that nobody knows...

Well, that is quite a bit far fetched by the syntax itself. It does work, but I'm kinda unconviced that lambda had to use such artificial trick despite she didn't claim anything for Kinzo and what not...

bah *scratches head*

[Ithekro]

As with most mysteries, we are missing something. Something important.

No I don't know what it is. My feelings say it has to do with Battler

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

As with most mysteries, we are missing something. Something important.

No I don't know what it is. My feelings say it has to do with Battler

What we are missing is actually just like in Higurashi: not especially the true identity of the culprit, but the possible motives.
Until now, the victory conditions and the gain from such mess are difficult to gauge (and all this play just for the gold is really dubious and proved otherwise in the 4 episodes already). That and the modus operandi (considering the few options we get with the "no 18 or more" people condition).

The motives might be related to the original Battler, but past this point, there is only wild guess... well that is still an assumption.

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

This isn't possible due to Lambda's red truth. Kanon had this name ever since he graduated from the Fukuin house and she stated clearly that only the person himself can bear such name.

That only means that nobody else can be Kanon, not that Kanon can't reclaim his old identity.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

That only means that nobody else can be Kanon, not that Kanon can't reclaim his old identity.

That's correct, but the problem is that this line is used in Episode 2. Therefore, regardless if Kanon regained his previous identity or not, he was there in front of Shannon, Genji, Gohda, Kumasawa and Nanjo.

it obviously doesn't contradict what beatrice said, that he was killed in Jessica's room. But somehow, his corpse was thrown in front of them, and "something" happened.

[Ithekro]

Is it "killed" or "died" in Jessica's room? I'm am unclear as to the context, but in some languages the meaning of said words can be shifted to mean something other than death in the physical sense. If it was "Kanon died in Jessica's room" it could mean he ceased being "Kanon" in there, rather than being dead, or that his spirit died (was crushed or something of that nature) there and thus Kanon is effectively dead, but still physically alive.

Or it could mean exactly what it says...just to confuse things even more than they already are.

[Klashikari]

That's what we thought before, as the tips says he "died".
However, in game in episode 2, Beatrice clearly said: Kanon was killed in this room.

[Ithekro]

Random thought: Could Beatrice be the baby that died the day Battler was born? Or to make it weirder, could Beatrice be Battler (as others see "him"), and Battler is Beatrice (or did they go over that). Assuming Battler doesn't have a split personality, or carrying around the remains of a twin in his body.

[Rias]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Random thought: Could Beatrice be the baby that died the day Battler was born? Or to make it weirder, could Beatrice be Battler (as others see "him"), and Battler is Beatrice (or did they go over that). Assuming Battler doesn't have a split personality, or carrying around the remains of a twin in his body.

It's possible, but with conditions.

Spoiler for ep4:

Ep4 makes the identity of Beatrice quite strange. Beatrice, until the very last parts of ep4, have always refered to herself as "妾". However, at the end parts of ep4's party, she refers to herself as "私"

Right at the end, she says

右代宮戦人。今から私が、あなたを殺します。

そしてたった今、この島にはあなた以外誰もいません。この島で生きているのは、あなただけです。島の外の存 在は一切干渉できません。

この島にあなたはたった一人。そしてもちろん、私はあなたではない。なのに私は今、ここにいて、これからあ なたを殺します。

We know that 私-Beatrice isn't the same as Battler, but that doesn't say that 妾-Beatrice can't be. We also see at the end of the game that Beatrice switched to another Beatrice (Dress->Suit) when she couldn't get Battler to admit his crimes. Is there really two Beatrices? Split personality? Meta Beatrice and typhoon/disease (non-human but able to kill Battler at the end) Beatrice ?

[Ithekro]

Hmmm.

The Typhoon would have been Carmen, historically speaking, as that was the only Typhoon in existance on the two days presented to us.

[ClockWorkAngel]

Spoiler for My thoughts:

Funnily enough with here no more than 17 people thing, we cna guess that in ep2 whenever there's talk of Kinzo/Beato there someone is obviously lying. We just have to replace Beato with someone else. We can use this to our advantage, seeing as for that part, both Kanon and Shanon were off to go get the meal to Beato, what were they actually doing?

[kiby]

Spoiler for question:

If the children are asked by kinzo to be tested, is it for the the heritage or beatrice's title?

Furthermore why did he locked the survivors?(to kill them later....yes XD) is it beacause only one of the children could inherit/get the title? (but eva could get it...)

[ClockWorkAngel]

Spoiler for About that:

The test thing is an obvious lie. More than likely the culprit drugged them and did away with them ala etipath, since we know Kinzo was dead before this, we know everything the Battler is told about the deaths are (mostly) a LIE!

[Rias]

Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel

Spoiler for About that:

The test thing is an obvious lie. More than likely the culprit drugged them and did away with them ala etipath, since we know Kinzo was dead before this, we know everything the Battler is told about the deaths are (mostly) a LIE!

Not necessary.

Spoiler:

The red text reaffirms that everyone acknowledged the existance of Ginzo, so it wouldn't matter if the real Ginzo is already dead. "New Ginzo" could've established that test himself, and it was reconfirmed over the phone call between George and Krauss that there was indeed a test.

Basically "New Ginzo" got tired of waiting for someone to solve the mystery, concluded that the adults are useless, and used Nanjo's suggestion of testing the children instead. Since the children were not to solve the riddle, they would not inherit Beatrice's power, and only be able to become the head of the Ushiromiya family.

The survivors were locked becuase only the childrens were suppose to participate in the tests. Eva died in the dinning room already with the other 5 before the tests happened.

[k//eternal]

Did Kinzo ever have any name other than Kinzo, though? I don't think I'd view it as a title like *on unless it was stated at one point.

[clevomon]

Spoiler for Kinzo:

If Kinzo was always dead, another scene that couldn't have occurred was the one where he comforts Natsuhi. Simply looking for a motive, and not a modus, Natsuhi is starting to look more guilty of the second twilight that episode. If she attempted to kill Eva and Hideyoshi got in the way, she then would have a motive to kill both, since she took what Eva said pretty hard. Thing is, in my opinion, we'd need a Hinamizawa Syndrome-esque thing for such a strong overreaction. Then again...

[k//eternal]

Correct, although I think you might want a spoiler tag there.

[Rias]

Spoiler for Kinzo title theory:

Kinzo as a title, or as a name that can be passed to others, is something that was suggested by Battler in the game, and was not confirmed or disproved.


４つのゲーム開始時の金蔵の生死設定は全て同一である。
第４のゲームのみ設定が異なることは無い…！
.
全ゲームの開始時に金蔵はすでに死んでいる！
.
親族会議に居合わせた全員が、金蔵の存在を認めた！
その祖父さまは別人の替え玉だ。親族たちが祖父さまと見間違えた別人だ！
全ての人物は右代宮金蔵を見間違わない。いかなる変装であったとしても、右代宮金蔵を見間違わ ない！

From that we know that Kinzo is indeed dead before each game, yet everyone acknowledged "Kinzo": not becuase of some person digused as Kinzo. Later on, when commenting on Ep2's Kanon:

嘉音くんの死亡は赤で宣言済みならば、生きているわけが無い。よって、襲われた彼らが、嘉音くんと誤認する ような何者かの変装の可能性がある！
彼らは異なる人物を嘉音と誤認することは絶対にない！
ならば金蔵の名の世襲と同じに、嘉音の名が世襲された可能性がある。嘉音くんが殺され、別の人物がその名を 受け継ぎ、彼らを襲ったと仮定できるッ！！

Same idea. Kanon is dead, yet people acknowledged that "Kanon" as Kanon. Name heritance was again, not confirmed or disapproved. Ep4 hints something in the beginning: it doesn't matter what the truth is, it's how other people percieves it and acknowledges it as the truth. In other worlds, it doesn't matter how they did it, but people did recognize Ep4's Ginzo and Ep2's Kanon as Ginzo and Kanon, respectively.