Claymore Chapter 87

[Cyclone]

I'll just point out that according to Deneve and Undine's little talk, almost every Claymore starts off weak and powerless depending on others to survive. Considering their current ranks, Claymores get quite a bit better with a bit of experience under thier belts. I don't think the test was too atypical, except for a slightly lower than average survival rate for this one. It's doubtful all Claymores get the exact same test though for several reasons:
- Claymores on AB hunts swapping graduation stories would be troublesome
- Having an eye type like Galatea-sama in it would render the test meaningless.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

That argument about the org caring for ther precious controlled awakened being fails, especially for the 40 something. Surely the org isn't expecting to gain an controlled abyssal from the 40 something. I think that the org had several experiments going on at once. To be honest, a weak claymore who had an unknown factor of having teresa in her, and had sensory powers, is far more interesting to experiment on that a slightly stronger but still pathetic claymore that has no common sense and no sensory powers. And the org displayed that they have some interest in observing clare, as was shown after she defeated Ophelia and then went missing. I doubt they send galatea to fetch the nameless one instead. And everything isn't that clear cut about what the org wants; they still have claymore choose to kill themselves rather than become awakened beings; they are willing to throw away something like Teresa for violating a stupid rule. I think much of what they do is just observe and let things play out besides their pet projects like Alicia and Beth.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Originally Posted by Cyclone

I'll just point out that according to Deneve and Undine's little talk, almost every Claymore starts off weak and powerless depending on others to survive. Considering their current ranks, Claymores get quite a bit better with a bit of experience under thier belts. I don't think the test was too atypical, except for a slightly lower than average survival rate for this one. It's doubtful all Claymores get the exact same test though for several reasons:
- Claymores on AB hunts swapping graduation stories would be troublesome
- Having an eye type like Galatea-sama in it would render the test meaningless.

The main thing about the test though is I don't think the org can afford to graduate everybody. I am thinking that usually there is just one spot open when someone dies, which usually is a 40 something according to Renee. I really think these were the small fries they were testing, to put into the 40 something tier. Anyway, the single digits would perform well in those tests I would think, they might not even need to be tested against others. Anyway, for the no name trainee to become a Claymore a spot would have had to been available.

Also what about the argument that has been made that the org doesn't fill a spot unless someone is worthy of it? That would support the testing people by their tier group level theory. If a #15 died, and Clare was the sole survivor, would it make sense to even test her if you trying to find a replacement for the 10's tier?

[Cyclone]

Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta

That argument about the org caring for ther precious controlled awakened being fails, especially for the 40 something. Surely the org isn't expecting to gain an controlled abyssal from the 40 something. I think that the org had several experiments going on at once. To be honest, a weak claymore who had an unknown factor of having teresa in her, and had sensory powers, is far more interesting to experiment on that a slightly stronger but still pathetic claymore that has no common sense and no sensory powers. And the org displayed that they have some interest in observing clare, as was shown after she defeated Ophelia and then went missing. I doubt they send galatea to fetch the nameless one instead. And everything isn't that clear cut about what the org wants; they still have claymore choose to kill themselves rather than become awakened beings; they are willing to throw away something like Teresa for violating a stupid rule. I think much of what they do is just observe and let things play out besides their pet projects like Alicia and Beth.

It's doubtful the main reason for Teresa's execution was a rule. The rule is for PR purposes anyways, and I think the survivors of that village would side with Teresa on this one.
It's far mroe likely that Teresa was killed due to what she knew. She hinted to her handler she knew what the organization was upto ("you make it sound like we send the youma." / "Oh, you mean you don't?"), and that made her dangerous to them. The Org was then probably looking for any reason they could find to get rid of her - otherwise they'd look the other way like they did with Ophelia.

[Cyclone]

Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta

The main thing about the test though is I don't think the org can afford to graduate everybody. I am thinking that usually there is just one spot open when someone dies, which usually is a 40 something according to Renee. I really think these were the small fries they were testing, to put into the 40 something tier. Anyway, the single digits would perform well in those tests I would think, they might not even need to be tested against others. Anyway, for the no name trainee to become a Claymore a spot would have had to been available.

I've run the numbers on this before. I don't feel like finding the post, but here's the gist of it. Using Miria's 100 year timeline of the org, and Teresa's Warrior number, and assuming there is 1 graduating class every year, the Org would need about 3-4 graduates each year on average. In Clare's class, there were only 2 - so that's about right (especially if others like Galatea-sama graduate without this test). What happens after things like the Luciella and Pieta incidents though is unknown - probably no youma and everyone graduates, which would help explain the low overall quality of the current crop (in my opinion).

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I don't think the Teresa thing was about PR, but more about control; it is the kind of regime the org is, and I think the org sometimes hurts itself by being the kind of regime that they are. I think they are a bit shortsighted at times too, but I guess that is up to yagi to prove or disprove with Alicia. Alicia was around when Teresa was, so maybe she became less important to their plans.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Originally Posted by Cyclone

I've run the numbers on this before. I don't feel like finding the post, but here's the gist of it. Using Miria's 100 year timeline of the org, and Teresa's Warrior number, and assuming there is 1 graduating class every year, the Org would need about 3-4 graduates each year on average. In Clare's class, there were only 2 - so that's about right (especially if others like Galatea-sama graduate without this test). What happens after things like the Luciella and Pieta incidents though is unknown - probably no youma and everyone graduates, which would help explain the low overall quality of the current crop (in my opinion).

But if a #9 dies, you need to replace her with a single digit in training. Priscilla was a #1 in training. There was another eye in training when Galatea was still around. I think the org is far more organized than to just add 2 more claymores each year. Why not train different claymoers together and organize the groups in tiers based on your initial analysis of how strong they can be? You can have Galatea or someone tell you that the yoki range is in the 40's and then you can train a class of maybe 30 girls for the 40 tier, do the same for the 30's 20's and 10's though the higher tiers starting at the 10's might be subdivided themselves, like there is a big gap between 5 and 6 in clare's time. Just adding 2 new claymore's a year in such an unorganized manner just doesn't make sense to me.

[Wiggle wyrm]

While I think there were a lot of factors with the hunt for Teresa, it all comes back to her killings. True, it seems that she knew too much and she was of questionable honesty, to say nothing about the “perfect replacement” waiting in line. But, there isn’t a chance the organization could overlook what she did.

It isn’t so much that she killed someone; it’s that she went on a murderous rampage. She killed a few dozen bandits, in the middle of town, in front of scores of witnesses. There’s no way the organization could keep something like that under wraps. Both humans and Claymores would hear about it, causing the Organization no end of grief if they allowed Teresa to live.

Not that the Organization cared one wit about human life. I think it’s pretty likely the Organization knew about Ophelia’s killings. From her seemingly habitually sadism, it’s hard to imagine that the Org couldn’t find out what was going on, if it wanted to know. They just didn’t care since she was considerate enough provide them with deniability. After all, by killing troublesome witnesses, there’s no one left to besmirch the Organization’s good name.

[FateAnomaly]

Hmm i don't think there were any witnesses. The villagers were all killed by the bandits and the bandits were all killed by Teresa. The only witness left is Clare.

[Cyclone]

And if there were any villagers who had survived, do you think they would complain that Teressa killed the bandits? Teresa would saved their lives, so who cares if they were witnesses. It's not like it would be bad PR for the Org.

[mosmos]

Yeah !!! It time of the month ... I am so excited....

I wonder.. am I going to do this until I die ? ...

[PureYoki]

Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta

Why not train different claymoers together and organize the groups in tiers based on your initial analysis of how strong they can be? You can have Galatea or someone tell you that the yoki range is in the 40's and then you can train a class of maybe 30 girls for the 40 tier, do the same for the 30's 20's and 10's though the higher tiers starting at the 10's might be subdivided themselves, like there is a big gap between 5 and 6 in clare's time. Just adding 2 new claymore's a year in such an unorganized manner just doesn't make sense to me.

It's reasonable to think there're many groups in different tiers but Teresa's warrior number indicates that there are only 1 or 2 graduates in each generation.

Teresa's warrior number = 182
Teresa's generation = 77
There were 47 claymores in first generation.
After Luciela incident, half of the warriors died = 23 warriors.

That leaves us 112 warriors for 75 generations which is approximately 1.5. So, on average, only 1 or 2 claymores can pass the test in each generation.

On the other hand, if we think about claymores who die in the battle, claymores who die by sending black cards and claymores who awaken, 1 or 2 claymores per generation is too low.

One more problem with tier-based training is that the weakest member of the high tier is still stronger than low tiers. If you eliminate strong warriors from high tiers but graduate weaker warriors from lower tiers, wouldn't it decrease the overall power level of claymores?

I think they graduate enough warriors to fill the ranks in each generation and they rearrange the rankings according to strength of the graduates. For example if there are 5 vacant positions and all 5 graduates are very strong, they become new #1 to #5 and other claymores are demoted. If new claymores are very weak, they become #43 to #47 and other claymores are promoted accordingly.

[Wiggle wyrm]

There were still people alive, mostly the women that the bandits wanted to round up.

I’m not saying that Teresa killing the bandits was a bad thing (it wasn’t), what I’m saying is that there’s no way that the Organization would tolerate such a blatant violation of its rules. Yes, the remaining survivors would be grateful to Teresa, but the Organization doesn’t give a damn about what they think. All it really cares about it staying in control and creating newer and better weapons.

I have the feeling that the rules aren’t there to make people more trusting of Claymores, but to keep the Claymores in line. Besides, letting Teresa off the hook might send the message that it’s OK for Claymores to break the rules.

Before you know it Claymores would be demanding better working conditions, a retirement plan that doesn’t involve having a sword driven through sternum, disability insurance for offensive types, equal pay for equal work, time off and paid vacations, overtime pay, 401K’s and don’t even get me started on forming a union.

[Sleepy Speculator]

It had nothing to do with those villagers either way. Orsay an mib and Teresa's handler witnessed the event, by what he said it's implied he was 'waiting' for it to happen. The plan was obviously to have Teresa purged for a rule infraction, that they don't really care about. Which brings about the obvious issue with the 'bandits'.

The bandits were not only well informed about the rules of the org imposed on their soldiers, but the leader also knew of the presence and non presence of the yoma that was in the town. Literally right after Teresa killed it, they moved in. Not to mention being awfully wasteful, and behaving more like a slaving operation than bandits.

Teresa was then 'expected' to submit to execution, which would have left Clare in the hands of the org, (she goes so far as to ask what would happen to Clare) which is what prompted her next and technically last act of rebellion.

The org don't really care much for their warriors, and Teresa had made it known she was a little too aware of what was going on. But what i can't be sure on is just how much the org was trying to get hold of Clare. Rubul's smile when Clare approaches him is almost too much, as if it was planned.

Clare survives the 1st yoma that kills her family, and is rescued whilst it's 'raping' her. By an unnamed claymore with a short haircut.
Clare is exiled but picked up not by the org, but by another yoma.
Clare is tormented by the 2nd yoma and dragged around and treated as a 'toy'.
Clare is rescued for the second time by Teresa.
Clare joins with Teresa and is seemingly chased by bandits.
Bandits wipe out entire town and primarily grab Clare.
etc etc.

Bare in mind that the org apparently makes the yoma, meaning they threw not one but two at the chibi Clare.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Originally Posted by Wiggle wyrm

Not that the Organization cared one wit about human life. I think it’s pretty likely the Organization knew about Ophelia’s killings. From her seemingly habitually sadism, it’s hard to imagine that the Org couldn’t find out what was going on, if it wanted to know. They just didn’t care since she was considerate enough provide them with deniability. After all, by killing troublesome witnesses, there’s no one left to besmirch the Organization’s good name.

I think it all was a control thing; the org doesn't need PR. As for Ophelia, well, I think that AB hunt she was on was meant to get rid of both her and Clare. 2 People on an AB hunt, against a single digit AB? Sure Ophelia won, but I don't think the org thought she would've.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Originally Posted by PureYoki

It's reasonable to think there're many groups in different tiers but Teresa's warrior number indicates that there are only 1 or 2 graduates in each generation.

Teresa's warrior number = 182
Teresa's generation = 77
There were 47 claymores in first generation.
After Luciela incident, half of the warriors died = 23 warriors.

That leaves us 112 warriors for 75 generations which is approximately 1.5. So, on average, only 1 or 2 claymores can pass the test in each generation.

On the other hand, if we think about claymores who die in the battle, claymores who die by sending black cards and claymores who awaken, 1 or 2 claymores per generation is too low.

One more problem with tier-based training is that the weakest member of the high tier is still stronger than low tiers. If you eliminate strong warriors from high tiers but graduate weaker warriors from lower tiers, wouldn't it decrease the overall power level of claymores?

I think they graduate enough warriors to fill the ranks in each generation and they rearrange the rankings according to strength of the graduates. For example if there are 5 vacant positions and all 5 graduates are very strong, they become new #1 to #5 and other claymores are demoted. If new claymores are very weak, they become #43 to #47 and other claymores are promoted accordingly.

There is no problem with the tier system, especially if you graduate 2 claymores a year, and you combine that with what Renee said, then you graduate 2 lower tier warriors a year, which means that you are training mostyl 30 and 40 somethings. There is a lot of support for the tier based system in the manga itself. Priscilla *was* a #1 in training. Renee *was* *the* eye in training. Alicia & Beth *were* #1 and #2 in training, with Alicia being a #1 in training while Priscilla was a #1 in training and Teresa still being alive. It even seems like that Teresa was a #1 in training when she met Rafaela. If you are replacing 1 or 2 very low digit claymores a year, then it is best to keep training the higher tier Claymores, but still I have my doubts that the nameless trainee wasn't put down. What use are Claymores that can't sense yomas? At the beginning Clare was pretty bad. That nameless trainee would've most likely died anyway on her first mission where the yoma is cloaked, if she can't even handle a single uncloaked one that is going through the trainees like the alien in the original Alien move, which is just pathetic, again. Oh and by cloaked I just mean shape shifted, not hiding yoki, which is something she wouldn't be able to sense anyway, it seems.

[PureYoki]

Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta

There is a lot of support for the tier based system in the manga itself. Priscilla *was* a #1 in training. Renee *was* *the* eye in training. Alicia & Beth *were* #1 and #2 in training, with Alicia being a #1 in training while Priscilla was a #1 in training and Teresa still being alive. It even seems like that Teresa was a #1 in training when she met Rafaela.

I mean if any of claymore trainees for the high tier gets eliminated in a test, wouldn't it be a waste? Those eliminated in the test are still stronger than graduates from the low tiers after all. (Do you say trainees for the high tier don't take a test at all? Sorry, I didn't fully understand your point.)

[Newhope]

Originally Posted by Cyclone

And if there were any villagers who had survived, do you think they would complain that Teressa killed the bandits? Teresa would saved their lives, so who cares if they were witnesses. It's not like it would be bad PR for the Org.

If any villagers survived which is likely due to the fact the bandits where after the women alive, my bets the org killed them to prevent word spreading about a claymore killing humans.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Originally Posted by PureYoki

I mean if any of claymore trainees for the high tier gets eliminated in a test, wouldn't it be a waste? Those eliminated in the test are still stronger than graduates from the low tiers after all. (Do you say trainees for the high tier don't take a test at all? Sorry, I didn't fully understand your point.)

If Claymores of a higher tier take test designed to kill some of them in a sort of competition, that is an unknown. They probably do pit the higher ranks like Teresa against Yoma in individual training, and I am sure that even at a young age Teresa could slaughter yomas. There also wasn't anyone in Teresa's league when she was training, so what use would it be to put her in a test with lower digits, when a) she could ruin the testing of lower ranked claymores by killing the yoma too quickly b) she'd obviously win. I think the best way to think of it would be Miata and Clarice, where Miata chibi as she maybe killed scores of Yoma, while Clarice is even worse at killing them than Clare was at the beginning of the story. Would a test where you put Miata with the group of trainees Clare was with be fruitful? Would a test where you put Galatea with them be fruitful? The way that the org talked about them having an Eye in training, sounded like Renee wouldn't need to go through the kind of test that Clare did because she is too important. That isn't true when you get to Claymores that are in the 30's and 40's. The way things sound if you combine the numbers of 2 a year with Renee's statements on 40 somethings, lower ranking trainees are a lot more common than high ranking ones, since that is who you usually are replacing.

[Ryuken]

It's all planed, there is no doubt about it. The Org has planed everything very well IMO. Everything is designed so that they would have complete control over them. In addition it would keep them always a step ahead of the others competing for power and control. To filter the strongest from a group, pin them against a yoma and wait for the result. Most likely the strongest would survive. To get rid of a couple, just send them on a dangerous mission, one guaranteed to kill and leave no trace. Planed very well indeed.