(L+CR) Chihayafuru

[sikvod00]

I don't think anyone believes that Taichi was a bad person (or is a bad person, I'm much more interested in his present self). We all just agree that what he did was wrong; what's up for debate is the reason why he did it. I'm also in the camp that thinks he did out of jealousy.

EDIT: I'm curious to know what you all think about Arata saying that Chihaya's dream is not really a dream. We generally think of dreams being about yourself, but I don't think that's necessary and is too narrow a definition (a personal dream, perhaps) What I most liked about that scene was the response I got from her. It was nice that he got her flustered and a little annoyed, because up to that point she was too upbeat and affable around Arata; like he was an object of pity.

EDIT2:

Originally Posted by Flower

... Chihaya is pretty tactless (something she herself admits via the "I say whatever comes into my head" statement) and also really absorbed atm in Karuta - for example when she found out Taichi had a girlfriend her main complaint voiced was that Taichi could not keep all his attention on Karata. Seemed to me Taichi was hurt by that as he had feelings for Chihaya but Chihaya was unaware of them ... perhaps a pattern all the way back to when they were students....

I agree 100% with everything. Chihaya appeared more concerned about Taichi's personal life only because the same thing may have happened to Karata. That's gotta hurt when you have a crush. I wonder what things are like between Taichi and Arata are after they become friends and play karuta together. The unmovable wall in their relationship seems to be Chihaya herself. The girl of your long held (and secret) affection has an unusual fascination with someone else. Can two guys really be friends in such a dynamic? Of course, all this is speculation on my part, since I'm an an anime-only watcher, and the first episode just premiered yesterday!

[-Sho-]

Yep , mostly it was jealousy. But i hate when people does what him & his classmates did to Arata.

[FlareKnight]

Certainly not going to get hard on Taichi here. Agree that it was one bad thing motivated a great deal by jealousy.

No surprise that after they split up he dropped the game. The only real tie he seems to have to it is Chihaya. Picking up soccer, going out with a girl who asked him, just trying to get away from those feelings. But the second Chihaya steps back in his life it all just comes back. His hopes actually getting risen when she seemed bothered by him going out with someone. But all tied back to karuta and Arata.

Good to get the peak into their past and should be interesting to see what happens from here. Taichi presumably finding a reason to go after Chihaya and pick up that game again. Of course also figuring out what has been going on with Arata.

[Guardian Enzo]

I tend to agree with Arata (who was the most interesting character in the premiere for me). Selflessly wishing well for those you love is admirable, but everyone should have a dream for themselves.

[Flower]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I tend to agree with Arata (who was the most interesting character in the premiere for me).

Selflessly wishing well for those you love is admirable, but everyone should have a dream for themselves.

Agreed on both points!

I also thought Arata was interesting - I actually wanted to know more about him personally after ep 1....

As for the second part, humans are both social and personal creatures, after all.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

It's pretty clear that he was just jealous of Chihaya's attention to Arata. They were just kids, and I expect kids to behave like that.

I'm surprised that so many people are seemingly dismissing the systematic bullying aspect here. I haven't seen bullying come up a lot in anime, or in manga, but just about every time it does, there's a certain idea that it conveys:

If an individual starts being nice to the person being systematically bullied, and hangs out a lot with that person, than this individual is likely to get bullied himself/herself.


The look in Taichi's eyes when he saw Chihaya talk more and more with Arata struck me much more as simple concern than outright jealousy. I very much think that Taichi was sincerely worried that a lot of the class would turn on Chihaya if she was seen as getting too close to the "marked" Arata.

I'd encourage people to watch the anime movie Colorful, as well as Shigofumi Episode 6 to see what I'm referring to here.

I'm not sure what you mean by "slice of life material" with the only slice of life scene being the one where Chihaya was lying down with her headphones.

What calorie and myself meant by "slice of life" was slower paced everyday living content, which is what a lot of people mean by "slice of life". I do not agree with the notion that slice of life is strictly about atmosphere, and can't be about characters.

[Sol Falling]

I have this thing with practically straight up assuming merit in serious shoujo/josei series. This was the only new/original series I'd initially picked this season, based on nothing more than a three-four sentence summary. I had no idea it was actually pretty hyped.

I have to admit, the somewhat absurdly gorgeous/detailed animation managed to get to me. Also, the sports shounen-esque, emphasis on ridiculous cool factor that came out with Arata's playing style and Chihaya later imitating him. The incongruity somewhat undermines the sentimentality I'd imagined to be at the heart of the series. While I am totally up for yet another bizarrely awesome Japanese sports manga, with shoujo romance elements, this first episode has caused me to revise my expectations downward, actually.

I'm not yet emotionally attached to any of the characters. lol, the sister might be interesting to see a bit more of, actually.

On Taichi "bullying" Arata, I also saw that as exclusively motivated by jealousy for the attention Chihaya was giving him. Wanting to protect her, or jealousy over scholastic praise from other students/the teacher, didn't really play into it imo. Indeed, children will be children.

Not at the top of my lists, but Chihayafuru will be a quality work I will be looking forward to throughout this season.

[Flower]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'm surprised that so many people are seemingly dismissing the systematic bullying aspect here. I haven't seen bullying come up a lot in anime, or in manga, but just about every time it does, there's a certain idea that it conveys:

If an individual starts being nice to the person being systematically bullied, and hangs out a lot with that person, than this individual is likely to get bullied himself/herself.

The look in Taichi's eyes when he saw Chihaya talk more and more with Arata struck me much more as simple concern than outright jealousy. I very much think that Taichi was sincerely worried that a lot of the class would turn on Chihaya if she was seen as getting too close to the "marked" Arata....

Apologies sir ... I was not trying to somehow "dismiss" what you were saying.

I agree that fear of Chihaya being a target of bullying may have been a contributing factor to Taichi's actions. Just for me (at least as of now - maybe it will become clearer as the eps go on?) it felt when I watched it that jealousy was the stronger of the influences going on at that time.

I guess I kinda see it as multiple things intertwining at the same time. Sometimes we can see such things in ourselves: multiple things contributing to an action, some conscious others not, but that we see afterwards upon reflection (possibly because of the unexpected aftereffects).

Just my perception of what happened though - for all we know both you, I and everyone else could be totally off base and the main motivation of Taichi's actions could be something not shown yet!

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Flower

Apologies sir ... I was not trying to somehow "dismiss" what you were saying.

Apology accepted, although it's no big deal of course.

I agree that fear of Chihaya being a target of bullying may have been a contributing factor to Taichi's actions. Just for me (at least as of now - maybe it will become clearer as the eps go on?) it felt when I watched it that jealousy was the stronger of the influences going on at that time.

I definitely do think that jealousy was a factor. Perhaps even the overriding one.

But I also think that Taichi was genuinely worried that if Chihaya started hanging out with Arata, that she herself would become a target of bullying (at least in the sense of ostracization). He himself even verbalized such concerns, IIRC.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

On Taichi "bullying" Arata, I also saw that as exclusively motivated by jealousy for the attention Chihaya was giving him. Wanting to protect her, or jealousy over scholastic praise from other students/the teacher, didn't really play into it imo. Indeed, children will be children.

And a lot of children bully. Why does Taichi's actions have to be exclusively about one thing alone?

[Dop]

When I read about this show I thought it sounded pretty intriguing. I'd come across the concept of the game in other shows, principally in an episode of Maria-sama ga miteru.

Having seen the first episode, I thought that was excellent stuff. Visually it looked marvellous, and while this first episode was mostly flashback, I enjoyed the story too. Looking forward to more, as this is shaping up to be a favourite.

And yes, young Taichi was being a jerk, then again most of the kids in that class were being jerks in a typical "let's pick on the new kid, he's not like the rest of us" display of bullying. Although I also agree he was possibly motivated by jealousy of seeing his best friend try to make friends with the new kid.

I was also amused when Arata was explaining how the game isn't played in other countries so if you're the best in Japan you're the best in the world.
"Well duuuh!", I thought.

[Flower]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I definitely do think that jealousy was a factor. Perhaps even the overriding one.

But I also think that Taichi was genuinely worried that if Chihaya started hanging out with Arata, that she herself would become a target of bullying (at least in the sense of ostracization). He himself even verbalized such concerns, IIRC....

Ah ha ... I think I see one of the reasons you and I may have seen things slightly differently.

When he verbalized these concerns I felt that he was using them as a "bludgeon", as it were - a further tool to pry Chihaya away from Arata to himself again. I did not think of it in the context of his being genuinely concerned for her while I was watching the ep ... perhaps b/c the sentence before was his saying that he himself would ignore her as well?

[Guardian Enzo]

No question that bullying was going on (and you'll rarely see it portrayed better than in "Colorful"). But I see no evidence Taichi was participating in that in any way, or that he was the type who would. I think his interest in Arata arose only when Arata become involved with Chihaya, as well as stole his thunder by memorizing the 100 poems. I'm not dismissing the bullying, nor am I saying Taichi was behaving admirably - but I think they're two separate issues.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

No question that bullying was going on (and you'll rarely see it portrayed better than in "Colorful"). But I see no evidence Taichi was participating in that in any way, or that he was the type who would. I think his interest in Arata arose only when Arata become involved with Chihaya,

Agreed. If not for that, he'd leave Arata alone. However, I think he was aware that when someone in "good standing" in the class starts hanging out with a person marked for bullying/ostracization (which Arata sadly was) that this can have a really negative effect on the person "in good standing". In other words, it can cost him or her that good standing. I think that Taichi wanted to ensure that this didn't happen to Chihaya. Was that his only motivation here? No, jealousy was probably a large part of it.

Children are not immune to these sorts of sociological impacts or concerns. In fact, they're often more susceptible to it than adults are.

[wandering-dreamer]

I honestly thought Taichi's bullying was because of several different factors, bullying Arata because he could get away with it/people started paying attention to him as well and then bullying Chihaya because he was jealous of her spending time with Arata and *possibly* because he doesn't want her to be ostracized as well (because then he wouldn't be able to hang out with her because people wouldn't hang out with him either, although that would be a big leap of logic for grade schoolers).

[Sol Falling]

On dreams. I think it might be irresponsible to assert that everybody should have a hope and personal ambition, or that people will always be able to achieve that by working hard. I do agree that a dream is something personal, however, and if someone manages to find one that there is value in the act of chasing after the dream itself. What drew me into this anime based on the description was the idea of Chihaya discovering a dream, and experiencing all the joy and difficulties that such a realization eventually brings. A proper dream should bring you closer to a full appreciation of life. It is also something that distances you from the wider context of society, however, as has in some small ways already been shown in this very episode. As a reflection of these complexities, I am very much looking forward to how Chihaya and Arata will relate on the matter of dreams in particular, as after some number of years I don't expect Arata's perspective on dreams to have stayed entirely constant.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And a lot of children bully. Why does Taichi's actions have to be exclusively about one thing alone?

Hmm, I suppose what I meant by that is that I don't really feel that children are such emotionally complex creatures. They will do things for simple reasons, because they are still learning the relations of actions and consequences. And my own reading of Taichi's priorities/interests saw him as being heavily focused on himself being at the center of Chihaya's attentions. The juvenile strategy of 'teasing the girl you like' practically by definition places the achievement of the boy's aims (getting her attention) over what the girl might ideally wish for, after all. To be honest, if Chihaya being bullied was really such a concern to Taichi, I think that Taichi himself befriending Arata along with her would have probably eliminated the occurrence of any further bullying at all.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

To be honest, if Chihaya being bullied was really such a concern to Taichi, I think that Taichi himself befriending Arata along with her would have probably eliminated the occurrence of any further bullying at all.

Like wandering-dreamer wrote, this might simply result in all three of them being ostracized by the rest of the class.

Ultimately, I think that children are more emotionally complex than what you yourself do, but that's a lengthy discussion that's probably too off-topic for this thread.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Agreed. If not for that, he'd leave Arata alone. However, I think he was aware that when someone in "good standing" in the class starts hanging out with a person marked for bullying/ostracization (which Arata sadly was) that this can have a really negative effect on the person "in good standing". In other words, it can cost him or her that good standing. I think that Taichi wanted to ensure that this didn't happen to Chihaya. Was that his only motivation here? No, jealousy was probably a large part of it.

Children are not immune to these sorts of sociological impacts or concerns. In fact, they're often more susceptible to it than adults are.

Agreed. Kids have a survival instinct that makes their radar better than an adult's when it comes to that.

I don't disagree that concern that Chihaya would be "tainted" was a part of Taichi's motivation. That's cold - no concern for Arata, but only that Chihaya would be impacted? But that's the reality of childhood - hanging out with the wrong person can make you a victim of the same bullying. In fact, Taichi had a personal stake because if Chihaya become an "untouchable", then he would face the hard decision - take the terrible risk of being branded an untouchable himself for continuing to hang out with her, or stop hanging out with the girl he has a huge crush on?

Again, I don't condemn Taichi for this - I think it's perfectly normal self-preservation mode for a child of that age. But it is that kind of survival instinct that allows kids to be bullied to the point of becoming hikokomori - or worse.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Agreed. Kids have a survival instinct that makes their radar better than an adult's when it comes to that.

I don't disagree that concern that Chihaya would be "tainted" was a part of Taichi's motivation. That's cold - no concern for Arata, but only that Chihaya would be impacted? But that's the reality of childhood - hanging out with the wrong person can make you a victim of the same bullying. In fact, Taichi had a personal stake because if Chihaya become an "untouchable", then he would face the hard decision - take the terrible risk of being branded an untouchable himself for continuing to hang out with her, or stop hanging out with the girl he has a huge crush on?

Again, I don't condemn Taichi for this - I think it's perfectly normal self-preservation mode for a child of that age. But it is that kind of survival instinct that allows kids to be bullied to the point of becoming hikokomori - or worse.

I absolutely agree on everything you wrote here. I'm glad we see eye-to-eye here.

Like you said - It's cold, but it's understandable and normal. The guy's first concern is himself and his desired girlfriend, and I certainly can't fault him for that.


What I will do though is admire Chihaya for risking social ostracization by hanging out with Arata. She showed real moral and intestinal fortitude there. Kids like her are invaluable in real life, as they're the most effective weapon against bullying.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

Heard the manga is a award winner of a source material too (Won the Kodansha Award for Shojo in 2011).

Yeah,that's why I was so excited about this project even if I hadn't read the manga, Kodansha Award winners usualy end up on NoitaminA (Honey and clover,nodame cantabile,antique baquery,kuragehime...)

It sure didn't disapoint,I've always liked director Morio Asaka and he delivered here.

[Flower]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I absolutely agree on everything you wrote here. I'm glad we see eye-to-eye here. ....

Looks like all three of us are on the same page, to be honest. (Well, even lightning strikes in the same place every once in a blue moon, eh? )