Spice and Wolf II - Episode 12 (END) Discussion / Poll

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo

Yeah, I mean he had to point out how selfish and unfair she was being, accept her dangerous plan, nearly get killed, defy her and give up his dream for her (temporarily), take her physical and emotional abuse, profess his love, counter her silly pessimism with his equally-silly optimism, and then accept that she might never even reciprocate. It was nice that she finally broke down in tears after all that, I was worried she might throw him out the window! /joking



Yeah, I'm impressed that he didn't run out the room screaming like a little girl.. and then he's still calm enough to grin like a maniac and joke around with her, even after she nearly knocks him out (along with a few teeth). What a trooper!

After seeing a gigantic wolf god mangle a bunch of thugs in a sewer, it's expected that a sexually-ambiguouss woman threatening you with a meat cleaver isn't going to faze you as such.

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

After seeing a gigantic wolf god mangle a bunch of thugs in a sewer, it's expected that a sexually-ambiguouss woman threatening you with a meat cleaver isn't going to faze you as such.

Heh.. I meant the scene where he sits down in front of Horo after that

But yeah, he didn't have much trouble with Abe at first until he worked out all his frustration and nearly choked her.. then he turned into lame-o Lawrence again and got lucky that Abe felt as sorry for him as he felt for her.

[Anh_Minh]

Abe got lucky too. I don't think Horo would have been willing to let it go if she'd killed him. And if she'd left him with nothing, well, who knows what he'd have done? Or Horo?

As it is, everyone gets what he or she wants. Abe gets the money to buy the furs. Lawrence gets out of that mess without losing Horo and without giving the Church a reason to go after him. He may not have gained anything, but he hasn't lost anything either.

[AKnightWhoSaysNi!]

Well, his shop deed and a good deal of money.

[Anh_Minh]

The money was what he got by borrowing using Horo as a collateral. The inn wasn't his to start with. And he got Horo back. So he's pretty much back where he started.

You could say he missed out on a big opportunity to have a shop and good amount of capital to stock it... But what he really lost is the opportunity to get killed by the local Church - assuming they come out on top after the rebellion. I mean, after messing with their scheme, he'd be opening a shop right in their center of power. He'd die.

And if they lost - well, the rest of the Church couldn't let it go, so they'd come and take the city back. A full scale invasion wouldn't make it a great place to do business in.

[BashZeStampeedo]

I also think that Lawrence got off easy this time, and Horo is really going too far by forcing an injured Lawrence to track Abe down. I wonder though.. was the inn really all he had to trade to get Horo back, or was he hiding the extent to which he really had to pay? I'm guessing the former, but knowing Lawrence he'd probably trade everything he made in Kumerson (or more) to get Horo back.

[Justin Kim]

Any speculations on a third season? I am pretty sure this airing got really high ratings. The story overall was good and it flowed with the character developments.

[Kaguya]

Originally Posted by Justin Kim

Any speculations on a third season? I am pretty sure this airing got really high ratings. The story overall was good and it flowed with the character developments.

I don't know.
A rumor is not heard yet. Realization of a third season will be dependent on the sales of DVD/Blu-ray.
But if a third season doesn't start within half a year, and Lawrence whose face is injured suddenly appears, I will feel it strange. They may put a flashback on the beginning.

My speculation is like this.
If they release novel Vol.4 by OVA, a third season may be after one year or more.
The release of DVD/Blu-ray of a second season continues till January, 2010.
If they release one episode by OVA every month, time will be required for it till July, 2010.
Even if it assumes that they release two episode by OVA every month, time is required for it till April, 2010.
After all, if there is no OVA, the April, 2010 start for a third season will be the fastest.
If OVA exists, a third season will be started in July, 2010 or October, 2010.

[kenshin-dono]

finally finished.. hmm actually i wasn't that thrilled with this last episode. Im not sure if Mazui's translation was off or what but there was quite a bit that was kinda confusing. The gist of its pretty clear. People were saying it was good because lawrence realized what he really wanted, but honestly that happened last episode. The scene with the green house and the nun was his real revelation where he realized what he really wanted. This episode just had him SAY it.

The other thing is this kiss everyones talking about. As someone pointed out, it wasn't a kiss. At least not a human one. They rubbed noses, so i guess in wolf language thats a kiss, but there was certainly no passionate human kiss or anything. Horos tail when he walked in defiantly was awesome though.

the major conversation that i found horribly confusing was the one near the beginning when they head to the dock. I'll have to wait for frostiis subs to see if mazui was just way off or something but as it stands im very confused what the meaning of it was. Hopefully someone can clarify this for me heres the transcription


L: if the deal goes well and i become a successful merchant, you'll congratulate me then bid me farewell. And if the deal goes bad, you wouldn't stand being sold, so you'd transform into a wolf and abandon your useless companion so you could return home.
In other words, the only way i can continue traveling with you is to throw away this chance. Im sure your going to tell me, "Dont throw it all away--
H: "--just to gamble on a single thread of hope"
L:"Thats why i didn't want to say"
H:is that what you really think?
L: yes
H: that id be happy with that?
L:yes
*Horo slaps lawrence starts trembling*
H: I wont say im happy. But i definitely wont say im sorry
L: With this, our chances of traveling together any farther have completely vanished. This is what you wished for, right?
*Horo looks very hurt/sad opens mouth to say something*
H: I will remember you as a c alculating, cool-headed merchant
L: shall we go?
*they get to the place they will sell her for colateral horo is crying*
H: if there is an all powerfull god like they say, why does he let us suffer so much?

ok.. now to me the conversation at the start seems to be him pointing out that any way the deal goes he will lose horo, so he really would rather just not go through with the deal. He wants to throw it all away to still travel with her. i THINK thats what he means by throw it all away to gamble on a string of hope. Is that right?

the part that confuses the hell outa me is when she gets pissed and slaps him and basically says its not what she wants. His reply confuse me, he basically says that he will go with the deal and they will soon say goodbye, which is in direct conflict with what he was saying near the start (unless i misunderstood it) Did her slap change his mind? what was she really thinking? this scene seriously confused me, i dont get the intent at all

what am i missing here? Maybe some of you understood that better than i did, or the frostii translation may clear it up a bit

anyway, overall i wasn't all that pleased with the episode, Eve's position was conviluded and not that clear to me. Was she planning on betraying Lawrence the whole time? If not whyd she sudenly chose to do so then? I dont understand what the hell she meant when she wispered "im hoping' to lawrence at the end. Could it have been more vague? Hoping for what? great fortunes? hoping to find what she wants when she gets that fortune? what? Her dialog before she turns the tables is confusing too. She mentions that after watching that aristocrat that bought her she started to wonder what the point of making money was. While she ruminates over having to just keep making more and more money, and what sad people they are theres scenes of the innkeeper. Why? whats she talking about? If she saw how foolish that path was WHY THE HELL IS SHE FOLLOWING IT!!! I cant understand it and it cripples her character. She started to be quite interesting to me, but really fell apart this episode in my opinion. Did anyone understand this? Maybe the novels explain it better because it makes no sense to me as it stands now. Oh, lol at the guy who comented on the scene with her mounting him. I grinned at that too ;P

Another thing, what the hell happend to the old man? No one mentinoed that. Did Eve kill him? did he go with her?

and a less important question. Why was Lawrence staring at his cart. It looked odd, was it stripped down? Did Eve do that, or was it just robbed? or was that not even his cart? lol. That ones not very important but i jsut found it strange.

I DID like the scene near the end with Horo though, and that really saves the episode/season in my eyes. Lawrence finally voiced what was important to him after realizing it last episode; Horo and his journey with her is his real dream now. The line from episode 11 was great "i believe its very fortunate if you're able to pursue modest dreams" I really enjoyed his confession of love to her at the end here and her subdued stuned reaction followed by the tears were great.

I'm glad there are a few other people here like bash that agree lawrence really came into his own here. Theres a lot of haters out there who complain about him but honestly Horos the one that was being dense and childish here. Lawrence pretty much layed it all bare, and yet shes the one dragging her feet and still refusing to really reciprocate. Shes the one still playing games

the very end with them walking to the docks has me wondering though.. were they just heading out to continue their journey, or were they actually going there to find Eve? If they were just leaving id think it would end with them getting the cart and leaving.

episode rating 7/10, overall season 2 rating 9/10

*phew* long post but this was a really great series. Most of the stuff ive been watching since i got back into anime recently after a long hiatus has been kinda the same garbage that made me abandon it in the first place several years back. This show was a nice breath of fresh air and i really hope for a season 3. Unfortunatly though it seems to me the way they ended this seems kinda like a 'off int he sunset' thing you see a lot of people wrap stuff up on. Im not holding my breath for a season 3 but id really hope for one. Im definatly going to start reading the novel translations now

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by kenshin-dono

ok.. now to me the conversation at the start seems to be him pointing out that any way the deal goes he will lose horo, so he really would rather just not go through with the deal. He wants to throw it all away to still travel with her. i THINK thats what he means by throw it all away to gamble on a string of hope. Is that right?

Before I start, note that I haven't read this volume of the novels. Still, I think you are right. He hasn't wanted to go through with the plan from the start, but Horo keeps pushing him for some reason. She did a total 180 and confused the hell out of him. She played every angle she could to get him to do it: attacking his pride and abilities, using the "do it for me" excuse, practically begging him to do it, and finally slapping him in the face.

I think that whole scene was just him pointing out to her that she's put him in a position he doesn't want to be in, and giving her one last chance. He honestly thinks she doesn't really want him to do it, and it takes a pretty hard slap in the face to convince him to do it. He seems very upset that she's willing to go this far to reject him, when she obviously doesn't want to. So he goes along with it, possibly to give her time to think about how stupidly she's acting.

It makes their next scene much more memorable, because in the end she's pissed off not because he's in love with her, but because he DEFIED her so openly and daringly. He's willing to openly take the plunge and declare that he loves her. Even if she never reciprocates. What he declares is almost purely unconditional love, in fact, he just wants to be with her until they get to Yoitsu. When she realizes that there is nothing she can do to convince him otherwise, she breaks down and cries (I liked the attention to detail there, when she was shaking out of what I presume was a mixture of rage and utter terror at his kindness).

What remains to be seen is what Horo is REALLY afraid of. She clearly isn't afraid of his love, or any of her other lame excuses (like being worried that their relationship will become "less fun"). She's clearly scared of some hidden consequence of their love, but she's so cowardly or proud (or both) she can't even tell him that much. Thankfully, he's now in a position to stand up to her and eventually crack the case, because it seems she'll never tell him on her own. Hopefully that will be the least we get out of season 3

Edit: Another interesting thing is that she mentioned TWICE that she expected him to "take responsibility for what happens from now on". This is one of the signs I'm using to guess that she's worried about the consequences of them falling in love. Is she a praying mantis or black widow or something?

Originally Posted by kenshin-dono

I'm glad there are a few other people here like bash that agree lawrence really came into his own here. Theres a lot of haters out there who complain about him but honestly Horos the one that was being dense and childish here. Lawrence pretty much layed it all bare, and yet shes the one dragging her feet and still refusing to really reciprocate. Shes the one still playing games

I consider him a great character partly *because* people are so polarized by him, yet they still watch the show and comment about it. If you can identify with a character so readily they must be pretty good. But yeah, I do agree that he routinely gets a bum rap and Horo is always given a free pass.. that's just the nature of being the regular human next to a moe wolfgirl deity

[bbee]

Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo

What remains to be seen is what Horo is REALLY afraid of. She clearly isn't afraid of his love, or any of her other lame excuses (like being worried that their relationship will become "less fun"). She's clearly scared of some hidden consequence of their love, but she's so cowardly or proud (or both) she can't even tell him that much. Thankfully, he's now in a position to stand up to her and eventually crack the case, because it seems she'll never tell him on her own. Hopefully that will be the least we get out of season 3

I think she actually is afraid of outliving him and losing him eventually, since she dreams of standing above his barren bones. It may be inspired by a similar experience she remembers from one of her previous apperances as a human.

She's thinking that she may as well end it now, with nothing but happy memories between them, while she has the opportunity to help Lawrence realize his dream. She may also have been insecure about Lawrence's feelings at the time, since he said that it may be better if she finds her own way once they get to that town. (I still don't understand why he said this, it's part of the "means to an end" convoluted set-up of some of the dialogue.)

This is exactly the responsibility she's laying on Lawrence now: she's in effect "passing the buck" on her immortality and telling him that, even if I stand at your grave, it was a choice you will have made.

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by bbee

I think she actually is afraid of outliving him and losing him eventually, since she dreams of standing above his barren bones.

This is exactly the responsibility she's laying on Lawrence now: even if I stand at your grave, it was a choice you will have made.

She just claimed in episode 11 that she was no longer worried about that, and in a tongue-in-cheek way her actions show this (she helped put him into a situation where he could have easily been killed before his time, and even now she's dragging him right back into action when he's clearly injured). I do agree though, and think she was lying when she said that to Lawrence. I just suspect that there is more to the story (because I read way too far into these things ).

The way she asks him if he will take responsibility implies that there is something he doesn't know yet (also note her reaction when he tells her he loves her is to angrily ask "What do you know about me?"). The fact that she then reiterates that he's going to take responsibility from now on shows how important it is to her that he understands this. To me it felt like she wanted to make sure that:
- he realized that he'd probably gotten himself into a lose-lose situation.
- he was *truly* willing to do this, and not just acting out of momentary passion he would later regret.

Of course I agree that she's also crushed that he's put her into such a "troublesome" situation, but the fact is that he just gave her a free pass. She can use him as an emotional crutch to deal with her problems, if she chooses to. He isn't even asking for reciprocation, he's merely "hoping for it". I don't think that fact escaped her.

Originally Posted by bbee

I still don't understand why he said [it may be better if she finds her own way home], it's part of the "means to an end" convoluted set-up of some of the dialogue.

IIRC, that happened long before he even knew he loved her, didn't it? He also immediately regretted saying it. I believe he was worried about how long it would take to be with her at the last leg of their search for Yoitsu, but he had no intent to desert her right then and there.

[Rawrs]

Originally Posted by kenshin-dono

The other thing is this kiss everyones talking about. As someone pointed out, it wasn't a kiss. At least not a human one. They rubbed noses, so i guess in wolf language thats a kiss, but there was certainly no passionate human kiss or anything.

Glad someone else noticed this


About Mazui's group names there, I didn't see anything wrong with it personally, they're by no means distracting at all from the actual scenes. I saw two in total the first time watching but it didn't bother me really.

Glad they used Tabi No Tochuu at the end there, I love that song and it was such a fitting end to the season.

Overall I give season two a 9.5/10.

[Attoney]

Originally Posted by bbee

I think she actually is afraid of outliving him and losing him eventually, since she dreams of standing above his barren bones. It may be inspired by a similar experience she remembers from one of her previous apperances as a human.

I think it's not that she is scared of outliving him because she just said on Episode 11 that she got used to the idea of her being able to live longer than him. What I really think she is scared of is that she will cause Lawerence's death. Lets think back to the dream. After she saw Lawerence's bones in the dream, she turned back and looked at her pack, and then suddenly the entire backround starts to turn red. This could foreshadow that Horo's pack might not be happy to see that Lawence and Horo are together and kill him, since she is a wolf deity and Lawerence is only human. This could also explain why she said he would take responsiblity for whatever happens from now on, since he made the choice of staying with her, even though Horo tried to end their relationship for his sake. Well, this is just my speculation on what Horo might be afraid of.

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by Attoney

I think it's not that she is scared of outliving him because she just said on Episode 11 that she got used to the idea of her being able to live longer than him. What I really think she is scared of is that she will cause Lawerence's death. Lets think back to the dream. After she saw Lawerence's bones in the dream, she turned back and looked at her pack, and then suddenly the entire backround starts to turn red. This could foreshadow that Horo's pack might not be happy to see that Lawence and Horo are together and kill him, since she is a wolf deity and Lawerence is only human. This could also explain why she said he would take responsiblity for whatever happens from now on, since he made the choice of staying with her, even though Horo tried to end their relationship for his sake. Well, this is just my speculation on what Horo might be afraid of.

I agree that it's unlikely to be a fear of outliving him, but why would she put him in such a dangerous situation if she was afraid of him dying? Also, rather than letting him rest and recuperate, she dragged him on a chase after Abe during a rebellion. I'm not so sure it's his death she's worried about.. but she certainly did make sure he knew that he was accepting responsibility for *something* bad when they had their last talk.

However, you might be onto something when you mention her pack. It's possible she doesn't know how her pack could accept her falling in love with a mortal. But who knows, at this point he's going to have to keep pressuring her into telling him what the fuss is about.

[Intranetusa]

Now that I've finished S&W2, I feel dazed and confused...

Since the 3rd season won't be along till at least next year, can anyone recommend me a similar series to watch?

I've just finished watching Bakemono...similar but not the same.

[Attoney]

Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo

I agree that it's unlikely to be a fear of outliving him, but why would she put him in such a dangerous situation if she was afraid of him dying? Also, rather than letting him rest and recuperate, she dragged him on a chase after Abe during a rebellion. I'm not so sure it's his death she's worried about.. but she certainly did make sure he knew that he was accepting responsibility for *something* bad when they had their last talk.

However, you might be onto something when you mention her pack. It's possible she doesn't know how her pack could accept her falling in love with a mortal. But who knows, at this point he's going to have to keep pressuring her into telling him what the fuss is about.

I think she prompt Lawerence into this deal because it would realize his dream of becoming a town merchant. If the deal goes successfully, Lawernce will get the inn as well as a huge profit to run the the shop. And if it didn't, he will still get the inn, and with profit he got from Kumerson, he would probably still be able to run the shop, while Horo will just turn into a wolf, escape and say farewell to him. Either way, she would be able to part with lawerence on good terms. Which is why she said that she will end this tale happily.

Also, since there is a rebellion happening in the town, they will want to get out the as soon as possible. Resting in an area where people are fighting, and destorying stuff isn't a good idea. Futhermore, things will get messy and complicated once the church brings an armed force to quell the rebellion. And since Abe double crossed them and injured Lawerence in the process, Horo with all her pride, would probably want to hunt Abe and smash her head through multiple brick walls.

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by Attoney

I think she prompt Lawerence into this deal because it would realize his dream of becoming a town merchant. If the deal goes successfully, Lawernce will get the inn as well as a huge profit to run the the shop. And if it didn't, he will still get the inn, and with profit he got from Kumerson, he would probably still be able to run the shop, while Horo will just turn into a wolf, escape and say farewell to him. Either way, she would be able to part with lawerence on good terms. Which is why she said that she will end this tale happily.

Also, since there is a rebellion happening in the town, they will want to get out the as soon as possible. Resting in an area where people are fighting, and destorying stuff isn't a good idea. Futhermore, things will get messy and complicated once the church brings an armed force to quell the rebellion. And since Abe double crossed them and injured Lawerence in the process, Horo with all her pride, would probably want to hunt Abe and smash her head through multiple brick walls.

I agree that her motives were clearly to get away from Lawrence by making him happy enough to be willing to say goodbye. But a crappy inn in a crappy town wasn't going to do that. She herself already told him he had the money to open his own shop on his own terms (from Kumerson).

Besides, Lawrence himself confirmed that he would have been willing to part with her if it really was on good terms: "This isn't an endless journey. When the time comes for us to part, a *smiling* farewell is all I'll ask for". She couldn't have made it any more obvious that she was miserable, and she knew he was as well.

I still think this was just her being selfishly desperate. I think her last statement may have been honest; that she is worried about completely falling in love with HIM (not the other way around). She could run off without warning anytime she wants, she's already earned her keep several times over. Clearly she still wants him around, or she could have left long ago. This was a ploy to try to make HIM the one responsible for leaving HER. Why? I don't know.. pride?

As for chasing down Abe, that seemed to be "Action Horo" reasserting herself. To hell with what he wants, to hell with the fact that he's clearly injured -- our pride is at stake! Time to kick ass and chew bubblegum, etc etc. Horo at her finest.

As an aside, I honestly can't wait for her to use the whole "don't you love me anymore?" excuse to get what she wants now He may have won the battle, but he probably just lost the war.

[Sinestra]

Interesting end it ended pretty much how i expected it too. The risk was just too great and Lawrence is lucky he just ended up back at square one it could have been much worse. Abe is playing a dangerous game and depending on the outcome of the rebellion i guess will determine her fate. Horo sure did use Lawrence as punching bag this time around she even kicked him lol at least she helped him get back up. But he was able to say those 3 words and as Horo said he was able to fight her foolishness to the bitter end.

I guess we all go into waiting mode now for S3.

[Mr. Anime]

wow only good things happened this episode^^
1)confession
2) Lawrence ruled and kicked abe´s ass, he is just 2 kind so he had 2 feel some kicks and punches^^
3) i think there definately will be a 3rd season after watching the end (so i think i am not as depressed as i thought i would be)

LAWRENCE UR THE MAN