Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll [END]

[Seravy]

;_; what wonderful ending. if i could rate it more than 10 i would.

[bladeofdarkness]

i made it a point to watch this ep and 21 at the same time (didnt watch last week)
OMG
i was litteraly in tears during the entire first half of the episode

Spoiler for the line that made me cry hardest:

sayonara papa ;_;

i love this episode to almost no end
clannad has no officially replaced kanon as my #1 keyoani show
couldnt ask for a better ending to it

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

Given your attitude about this, I would say that this amount of suspension of disbelief will fall flat on its face Kaioshin. The kind of personality portrayal in Legend of Galactic Heroes is an exception and I don't honestly expect it to ever be replicated in any way, so personally I am judging production based its intended results. In another word, take it easy~

Oh but I am judging the production based on it's intended results (I'm not just another typical RAEGer after all), which is precisely why this ending causes problems with regard to the last 5-6 episodes before it. It's not what happened, but how it conflicts with some other things I thought were done quite well and throws yet more aspects of the show into confusion and chaos. In other words it's something I cannot ignore.

[Tyabann]

Like I said.

What works in a game does not necessarily work in an anime.

It was fine in the game because it felt like a reward for all the shit you had to go through to get to it.

Is it fine here, when you're not the player character? Not so much.

[bladeofdarkness]

ep 24 gave us a tomoyo route OVA
lets hope ep 24 this time gives as a tomoyo after OVA

[Proto]

Like I said.

What works in a game does not necessarily work in an anime.

It was fine in the game because it felt like a reward for all the shit you had to go through to get to it.

Is it fine here, when you're not the player character? Not so much.

Well, it depends on how much empathy you can feel for the characters. Certainly it is easier when the narrative is in first person, however it's not like empathy is impossible in 3rd person styled narratives.

[Yukinokesshou]

Excellent production, though having played the VN, everything was somewhat expected. As usual, Kyo Ani stuck very closely to Key's storyline. 10/10 for a fulfilling end to a fulfilling (though completely illogical) series.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

I approve of this episode.

I approve of grownup/teenage Mei. Nice figure without being overdone.

I approve too. *Brings down stamp* APPROVED

Originally Posted by Ithekro

No idea where Kotomi is, but it has to be someplace they drive on the right side of the road, but have the driver seat on the right side (or she imported her own car).

According to this Wikipedia article... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-h...ating_position ... "Although it drives on the right, North Korea has imported various used RHD vehicles from Japan, from tourist buses to Toyota Land Cruisers."

[Ushio]

It was a happy ending, but it still made me sad, because I know I'll never have a perfect family like that. OTL''

Ah, either way, good episode.

Spoiler for But..:

I wish the happy ending was just Tomoya's dream, and in reality, all three of them died. :v /morbid?

[Haruyasha]

Originally Posted by Ushio

It was a happy ending, but it still made me sad, because I know I'll never have a perfect family like that. OTL''

Ah, either way, good episode.

Spoiler for But..:

I wish the happy ending was just Tomoya's dream, and in reality, all three of them died. :v /morbid?

Lol, I was wishing that too.

Spoiler:

Tomoya needs to stop cheating fate and face reality.. his family is dead.

[Sheba]

Yeah right, let's all have a Emile Zola miserable ending and get a near pornographic pleasure in others' misery. What was Maeda's intention again? A "naturalistic" study or a "magic realist" story about a group of people in a town?

[panzerfan]

Well now now, it's not as if Maeda Jun didn't have a bit of that Tomino-esque kill'em all attitude demonstrated in Ideon. Originally his script goes only as far as episode 21... rather sadistic, and strangely enough Toei didn't opt that way in movie too.

But anyways, that's getting sidetracked from this episode.

This episode has two animation directors and I think you can see how much budget goes into making this sole episode. I hope KyoAni doesn't stretch itself too thin out of this one though.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Oh and I think this series already gets enough leeway from me as it is....most people don't even seem to bother to really critique it so I wouldn't mind being the first to point out some of the flaws in the overall storyline since it seems like nobody else ever bothers too. It's the finale so I might as well go all out now:

Spoiler for Why I wasn't sold on this ending:

Clannad has always felt like it relies more on making it's viewers feel extreme emotion to earn it's praise then it does on following through specifically on what is supposed to be it's core theme of family. Episode 18 managed to shirk that a little and it was looking like the story was going to escape KeyAni's tendency to fall back on raw emotion as a crutch. It finally felt like it was realizing it's core theme at last and I was really getting into the story then. However then came episode 21, and finally episode 22.

This episode just took what has to by me greatest pet peeve with KeyAni stories and drove it home and it leaves me less than impressed with the story as a whole as back during episode 18-19 I had really felt it was capitalizing on the morality tale of Tomoya realizing that despite his loss he had an obligation to be a father to Ushio. Now I'm just left saying, what loss? What moral obligation? What point did any of the last few episodes really have as far as realizing the theme of family if they are just going to reneg it all for yet another reason to take people on an emotional roller coaster and make them cry.

That's really what Clannad feels like it comes down to in the end and while it works for most people I can't say it leaves me as impressed as if this show were to have ended at episode 19. Once you've experienced KeyAni stories main draw as crying anime a couple of times it really starts to lose it's impact, which is why I was desperately hoping they would shirk the games original story and instead focus on maximizing the potential of the family theme and Tomoya's bonding with Ushio as a way to get over the loss of Nagisa and to fully transition into the next step of his life. Not so....it's right back to tearjerker affairs for the audience and the characters again/

Seriously think about it, what point did any of the last few episodes have besides making people feel extreme emotion. What was the point of killing off Ushio last episode besides making Tomoya go through one last bit of agony? What was the point of making Tomoya going through all of those realizations that after great loss there is always new hope, only to kill Ushio, break him down yet again and then instantly lift him back up for yet another tearjerker, only this time because it's a happy ending where everyone gets to see there favourite characters one last time. Somewhere in all of this the theme of family gets really confused twisted and convoluted and all that's left is raw emotion. Meh I say....meh....

You know that song Mad World.....that's like the perfect way to describe how I feel about Clannad in the end....and in exactly the tone it's sung.

All around me are familiar faces
Worn out places, worn out faces
Bright and early for their daily races
Going nowhere, going nowhere
And their tears are filling up their glasses
No expression, no expression
Hide my head I want to drown my sorrow
No tomorrow, no tomorrow
Watching Clannad After Story makes me feel kind of funny
it makes me feel kind of sad, the dreams in which their dying are the best it's ever had.
I find it hard to tell you
'Cos I find it hard to take
When people run in circles
It's a very, very
Mad World

Hello teacher tell me what's my lesson........
Look right through me, look right through me..........

Sorry, but after episode 18 I really did expect a lot more from this series and had raised my expectations. I guess I expected too much. Hence why this episode gets a 6/10. In the end the series will probably end up with a 7/10. I enjoyed quite a few more parts of it then I thought it would, but in the end to me it's just another KeyAni story and to me that's not enough to push it to the next level I was really hoping for after episode 18.

I'm only left to imagine though what would happen if this type of ending happened for any show other then Clannad with it's seemingly impenetrable criticism shield. Holy crap would that show just get ripped to pieces.

[MeoTwister5]

Might as well download the raw. It would suck so much ass if Torch Hijacks Chiisana Tenohira, but maybe I can forgive them for that.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

I'm only left to imagine though what would happen if this type of ending happened for any show other then Clannad with it's seemingly impenetrable criticism shield. Holy crap would that show just get ripped to pieces.

Mai-HiMe, Nanoha A's, need I name more? Oh wait, there be no mechs, no huge war, no politics.

[Proto]

@KS: Well, that's because you are seeing the magic in the story as a contrived plot device rather than an integral part of the story. The last episodes before 21 weren't in vain, a what if scenario of sort. Under the logic of the story, it was necessary for Tomoya to understand what the message the town was giving him was. That's why the lighting orbs were an ever present element in the story back since Fuuko's arc. Rather than just a 'whoops, nothing to see here' kind of scenario, it was a 'tragedy in order to grow up' kind of path, were he was given a second opportunity exactly because he struggled through unhappiness, and yet emotionally succeeded and accepted it all.

Though, that's the problem with magical realism in general. It's, for its most part presented as a realist kind of show except for some not-so-obvious-at-fist-glance kind of aspects, which sometimes you are expected to weed out yourself in order to see the message the author is trying to convey. As such, one cannot directly apply a 'normal world + deus ex machina' logic to these scenarios.

PS: compound words FTW.

[MeoTwister5]

Since this is the final episodes and pretty much all spoilers are free territory, the Spoilers thread has all the information you need on the light orbs and the magical nature of the story. I'll be at the gym while it downloads, don't fail me now Chiisana Tenohira.

[Tempester]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Oh and I think this series already gets enough leeway from me as it is....most people don't even seem to bother to really critique it so I wouldn't mind being the first to point out some of the flaws in the overall storyline since it seems like nobody else ever bothers too. It's the finale so I might as well go all out now:

Spoiler for Why I wasn't sold on this ending:

Clannad has always felt like it relies more on making it's viewers feel extreme emotion to earn it's praise then it does on following through specifically on what is supposed to be it's core theme of family. Episode 18 managed to shirk that a little and it was looking like the story was going to escape KeyAni's tendency to fall back on raw emotion as a crutch. It finally felt like it was realizing it's core theme at last and I was really getting into the story then. However then came episode 21, and finally episode 22.

This episode just took what has to by me greatest pet peeve with KeyAni stories and drove it home and it leaves me less than impressed with the story as a whole as back during episode 18-19 I had really felt it was capitalizing on the morality tale of Tomoya realizing that despite his loss he had an obligation to be a father to Ushio. Now I'm just left saying, what loss? What moral obligation? What point did any of the last few episodes really have as far as realizing the theme of family if they are just going to reneg it all for yet another reason to take people on an emotional roller coaster and make them cry.

That's really what Clannad feels like it comes down to in the end and while it works for most people I can't say it leaves me as impressed as if this show were to have ended at episode 19. Once you've experienced KeyAni stories main draw as crying anime a couple of times it really starts to lose it's impact, which is why I was desperately hoping they would shirk the games original story and instead focus on maximizing the potential of the family theme and Tomoya's bonding with Ushio as a way to get over the loss of Nagisa and to fully transition into the next step of his life. Not so....it's right back to tearjerker affairs for the audience and the characters again/

Seriously think about it, what point did any of the last few episodes have besides making people feel extreme emotion. What was the point of killing off Ushio last episode besides making Tomoya go through one last bit of agony? What was the point of making Tomoya going through all of those realizations that after great loss there is always new hope, only to kill Ushio, break him down yet again and then instantly lift him back up for yet another tearjerker, only this time because it's a happy ending where everyone gets to see there favourite characters one last time. Somewhere in all of this the theme of family gets really confused twisted and convoluted and all that's left is raw emotion. Meh I say....meh....

You know that song Mad World.....that's like the perfect way to describe how I feel about Clannad in the end....and in exactly the tone it's sung.

All around me are familiar faces
Worn out places, worn out faces
Bright and early for their daily races
Going nowhere, going nowhere
And their tears are filling up their glasses
No expression, no expression
Hide my head I want to drown my sorrow
No tomorrow, no tomorrow
Watching Clannad After Story makes me feel kind of funny
it makes me feel kind of sad, the dreams in which their dying are the best it's ever had.
I find it hard to tell you
'Cos I find it hard to take
When people run in circles
It's a very, very
Mad World

Hello teacher tell me what's my lesson........
Look right through me, look right through me..........

Sorry, but after episode 18 I really did expect a lot more from this series and had raised my expectations. I guess I expected too much. Hence why this episode gets a 6/10. In the end the series will probably end up with a 7/10. I enjoyed quite a few more parts of it then I thought it would, but in the end to me it's just another KeyAni story and to me that's not enough to push it to the next level I was really hoping for after episode 18.

I'm only left to imagine though what would happen if this type of ending happened for any show other then Clannad with it's seemingly impenetrable criticism shield. Holy crap would that show just get ripped to pieces.

You took the words out of my mind Kaioshin-sama. I absolutely love the True Ending, it feels justified because Tomoya gets what he deserves in the end after all that emotional pain. But in the end, I think it lost the message of the story. We can relate with Tomoya raising Ushio as a single father and the story ending that way, because people, including our spouses, pass away in real life and they don't come back. But how can we relate to traveling back in time to save your wife from death? True End is a beautiful ending, but at the same time it feels distant and we can't sympathize with the characters anymore.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Proto

@KS: Well, that's because you are seeing the magic in the story as a contrived plot device rather than an integral part of the story. The last episodes before 21 weren't in vain, a what if scenario of sort. Under the logic of the story, it was necessary for Tomoya to understand what the message the town was giving him was. That's why the lighting orbs were an ever present element in the story back since Fuuko's arc. Rather than just a 'whoops, nothing to see here' kind of scenario, it was a 'tragedy in order to grow up' kind of path, were he was given a second opportunity exactly because he struggled through unhappiness, and yet emotionally succeeded and accepted it all.

Though, that's the problem with magical realism in general. It's, for its most part presented as a realist kind of show except for some not-so-obvious-at-fist-glance kind of aspects, which sometimes you are expected to weed out yourself in order to see the message the author is trying to convey. As such, one cannot directly apply a 'normal world + deus ex machina' logic to these scenarios.

PS: compound words FTW.

And as some of us have talked about in the Spoilers thread, it all falls into whether the anime can try to link the "return to that day" into a believable and continuous narrative that the VN didn't actually need so much of. It has to be continuous here because you aren't in the 1st person POV like the VN, so I'll comment more on it later when I watch it.

[Proto]

Since this is the final episodes and pretty much all spoilers are free territory, the Spoilers thread has all the information you need on the light orbs and the magical nature of the story. I'll be at the gym while it downloads, don't fail me now Chiisana Tenohira.

Hmm... well there are still some spoilers left as for the stories in the light novel that might be animated, and the scenarios that didn't made it to the anime (eg: Kyou's, Sanae's, Akio's, half of Yoshino's and Kappei's, heck the guy didn't even get a cameo.) but for the most part the spoiler thread should be safe for everyone now.

True End is a beautiful ending, but at the same time it feels distant and we can't sympathize with the characters anymore.

Maybe you can't sympathize, but you definitely can empathize.

[Sidestep]

Well I am very pleased. Compared to the game, this felt much more fulfilling.

And wow, Mei, is that you!?