[Manga] Chapter 364 Discussion

[Sandaime78]

Originally Posted by Lunarskylar

hmm... i haveth a theory, though it sucks that i have to type it up on a PSP. Anyhoo, i think that our lovable tobi was indeed a 30% clone, but perhaps a higher level than the jutsu used for kisame & itachi. On this level the clone can think and act on its own since it seems foolish for madobi to be controlling it all the time. But im really feeling the whole tobi is obito AND madara theory. What if after miracliously surviving Obito, now bitter from what happened in gaiden, gets MS (kills rin perhaps)

Just wondering if anyone ever thought of this...

1). Kakashi's left eye is a sharingan given by Obito.
2). Tobi's right eye is now confirmed as sharingan.
3). To - obi / obi - to (is it a Katakana or Kanji for the name spelling?) but I'm sure it's only two words in Japanese and they are the same in reverse.

[Lunarskylar]

cont- somehow finds kyubii & uses it to attack konoha out of spite or something. That could be how kyubii knows madara. Or even more the kyubii was being controlled to destroy the uchiha clan, not konoha itself. he failed so controls itachi into doing it. But why though is the real question

EDIT - but being a clone the entire would explain some of the unneccessary acting, wouldnt it? it could even be like KB with the memory when destroyed feature

[Sasuke_Bateman]

Originally Posted by 0TaKu0

>_> Actually, if we considered reality to a manga most people would relate them self to Naruto more then Sasuke. Naruto is the underdog, Sasuke is the jock. Not saying there aren’t people who cant relate them self to Sasuke but its pretty obvious what kind of people those are. No, don’t even try and respond with some unintelligent / childish response like "Yea, bad ass people" or something of its kind. You relate your self to Sasuke dont you? (^w^).

You have so little faith in me

I don’t believe in this underdog argument . Sasuke has gone through as much struggles as Naruto. And from what we see Naruto came out better, he handled it the right way some could say. Sasuke other the hand took it very badly. His past is always haunting him, he wants to get back to the good days. From what we could see from the flashbacks Sasuke was like Naruto in some ways he was very naïve and foolish always falling for Itachi’s trick of tapping him on the forehead. Myself finds Sasuke’s ambition to undo the past and make the future better for himself very selfish, that’s why I find Sasuke’s way of thinking very realistic. Sasuke is in-between light and dark, he repersents true human emotion..he’s not good and he’s not bad he’s in the middle like everyone of us(well most of us). He's like me very selfish but still knows right from wrong, well in his own way.

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

-Good looking you say? I am sorry but I think Haku has him beat in that area . I am betting that if Haku had survived that fateful encounter with a Rakiri he'd be the most popular character right now. But really I simply cannot relate to Sasuke in any meaningful way. Sure I can feel pity for his predicament but not much else. He's too unrealistic in how he interacts with the world around him. His fighting style is good but that's all, nothing to write home about (neither is Naruto's for that matter). Personally I think people cling to Sasuke simply because he represents people's desires for superiority over others, popularity, perfection and justified egoes since they cannot gain these traits themselves. Naruto on the other hands represents the majority of the world, the reality which everyone doesn't wish to accept but have to anyway in the end and that is "All that is to be gained requires sacrifice, time and effort".

Haku good looking? No way in hell.

You made some GREAT points Fukitsu I must say, and I agree with you on the reason why people cling to Sasuke of what he represents. I'd like to add there are people who have someone in their life they have always wanted to over come and be equal to or maybe even surpass one day. I think come people find Sasuke struggles a reflection of their own. Sasuke in my opinion is very realistic, he’s someone that has gone through a lot of things in his life and is desperately holding on to the past trying to make a better future.

[tatami]

Originally Posted by Sandaime78

Just wondering if anyone ever thought of this...

1). Kakashi's left eye is a sharingan given by Obito.
2). Tobi's right eye is now confirmed as sharingan.
3). To - obi / obi - to (is it a Katakana or Kanji for the name spelling?) but I'm sure it's only two words in Japanese and they are the same in reverse.

yes like 30 or 40 people min for a year....

[0TaKu0]

Originally Posted by Sasuke_Bateman

You have so little faith in me

Not really =p but I had to say something that intimidating to get a well thought out response from you fufufu.. and it worked! xP

Tsk tsk tsk However you misunderstood in terms of why I said most people can relate to Naruto more then Sasuke. I guess I should have broken up my response rather then simply put "Sasuke is the Jock, and Naruto is the Underdog" I just figured you would catch on to what I meant from that. That being said honestly while I could go deeper in to what I stated, break it down, and turn it in to a kilometric post. Why bother when Fukitsu Naruto has done it for me so, I'll break down his post instead.

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

Personally I think people cling to Sasuke simply because he represents people's desires for superiority over others, popularity, perfection and justified egos since they cannot gain these traits themselves. Naruto on the other hands represents the majority of the world, the reality which everyone doesn't wish to accept but have to anyway in the end and that is "All that is to be gained requires sacrifice, time and effort".

(Fukitsu Naruto I'm using your post as an example in responce to Sasuke_Batman) =3

See simply put, there is only a hand full of "Sasuke's" in the real world, while theres a shit load of Naruto's, Sasuke represents what people wish they could "have / be" while in reality Naruto is what most people are. If you want to talk in terms of reality, and now realize that I’m not speaking in terms of "brother murdering your clan, your mom and your dad". I'm speaking in terms of reality you have to look at it like this ->

Sasuke had the looks, the smarts, the girls, the popularity, the superiority (while Sasuke also had the bad stuff to counter all this, because I'm talking in terms of only reality, not something that would only happen in an Anime it does not apply as much). Not many people in reality can say they were or are "That one kid in school" (meaning -> had the looks, girls, popularity, smarts, superiority), or even relate to that. Get it now? However, in Naruto's case growing up being, the underdog, or the "geek" if you want to use reality terms, always looked "down" on, social "outcast", or being the person that is bullied, I can go on but I think you get the point now, more people fall in this category.

Also I was trying to point out, most people that do relate to Sasuke in reality terms (they had everything and then some growing up) tend to be. . . well I'll just leave it at that, and let the people decide the words I want to use here (^w^). None the less, if you want to discard everything and talk emotional only, people still relate to Naruto in terms of emotions more then Sasuke because, ->

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

He's too unrealistic in how he interacts with the world around him.

When is the last time in real life some ones brother "killed their own clan, and their whole family"?

The way Sasuke's brother treats him in terms of reality, yes it is possible that some one can relate to this, hell I'll even give you this much -> it doesn’t have to be a brother, it could be a mother, father, sister, even a friend still this is a <- minority of the people. However, if you look at Naruto's life in terms of emotional distress and things that people go through in real life while growing up (not just from one person, but just general people and society), its way more related and down to earth. "Geek" "Outcast" "Picked On" "Underdog" etc.. etc.. <- majority of the people.

Almost everyone can say they have been where Naruto was while growing up in at least some point in their life. However, when it comes to Sasuke only a hand full of people can say they have been there, are there, still are, while the majority just wish for it to be so. Relating, and wishing are two very different things (don’t forget I was debating which character people can relate to more in terms of reality emotionally or not, not which character people wish to be like) and it all comes down to majority vs. minority.

EDIT:

By the way, this is off topic by a mile, so if you want to debate this more lets take it to PM's or lets end it here and get back to the spoiler discussion . The raw should be out soon any way.

[Naruto_spartan]

Don't you think that the Akatsuki has other plans for Naruto? In part one Orochimaru stated that if Akatsuki got their hands on Naruto, he could become a great problem. But Akatsuki only use the Jinchuriki to extract the tailed beasts, so why would he turn out to be a problem? And why are the Akatsuki having such a hard time capturing him, or why would the Leader himself go after Naruto?
Things just get more fishier with each passing chapter.
As for Toby, he is clearly not dead, I mean he was cut in half by Sasuke and yet he survived.
With every question answered, 10 new questions are asked.

[0TaKu0]

Originally Posted by Naruto_spartan

Don't you think that the Akatsuki has other plans for Naruto?

To be honest? I remeber a while back in one of Sazelyt's post's, one of his sentences were "Sasuke is a side project". Doesnt it feel like Naruto is the side project of the Manga now, rather then Sasuke? I mean chapter 363 what the hell, Pein is all, "So what about the jinchuuriki", the shadowy figure is all "Meh, you get him you as the leader failer is unnacceptable". Almost like he dident give a rats-ass, who seems like the side project after that? Seriously!

Right now it feels like the whole Jinchuriki collection was nothing more then a bogus distraction for Akatsuki members. Meaning for the people who dont know about Madara and his real plans relating to Sasuke (assuming they deal with Sasuke and the Sharingan). It almost feels like while originally Kishimoto had planned to do something huge with the collection of the Jinchuriki, but due to fandom or -something- he switched the goal and ditched the original idea and turned the Jinchuriki collection in to a side project to be used ultimately for whatever the real goal is.

It just makes me want to go up to Kishimoto and just say "wtf dude?"

なんだ　これ？　きしもと！(－＿－；)～

EDIT:

Pictures with Tobi, and summery spoiler officially confirmed. There are more spoilers out right now, full pages, it wont be long before the raw is out.

[Frenchie]

Meh, Otakuo, if we look from that perspective, Naruto wouldn't have been a "monster fox". Meaning the kids -might- not have bullied him. (Or much less)

The reason why he lost his parents is also a big part of his character. Meaning he had no immediate family.

I know you can still say that orphan's are more common than relatives killing each other, but essentially, Sasuke and Naruto aren't really the best characters you could have people relate to.

Lee, Shikamaru, Chouji, Ino/Sakura are in my mind more appropriate for that.

[othafa]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

I think it's Madara who did the fine acting job. It's not unusual for characters to mask their abilities or act oddball despite their strength, but I have never seen a villain of this rank play such a retard. He stayed in character even when it wasn't necessary (like when he cries out believing Deidara was dead, and says he'll be missed). It almost makes it hard to take him seriously as the true leader.

His inner thoughts also gave no indication. We saw him thinking to himself about the C4 attack and it seemed to be a "Gee whiz, what a powerful jutsu" kind of thought. If he were Madara, I'd have expected him to think something more knowing, like "This battle is going as I thought it would.." or something like that. Many thought that Tobi was a Sharingan user, but all the signs seemed to point to Obito, there was not the slightest clue that he might be Madara.

There may be still the slight chance that this is a deal where Madara's soul/essence is stored in someone else like Obito, but I'm not counting on it.

First, in terms of c4, I think that his inner thoughts don't necessarily indicate an acting job. If you think about it, no one had ever seen c4 before, and there is no other jutsu that can kill you so completely in such a covert way. Furthermore, its a jutsu that can kill an unlimited number of enemies as long as they're close enough. I can imagine any shinobi of any level thinking that this move is quite powerful (I think its the most destructive move we've seen so far). Furthermore, I think that this is further evidence causing me to lean towards the point I make below, since we know that at heart Obito is a character less inclined to speak ominously or seriously. Like Jiraiya, he is a badass but everyone can still think he's a fool considering the way he acts, until he decides that its time to get serious. I think that everyone is prejudiced against villains in this way; that its acceptable for good guys to act goofy when their lives aren't on the line, but unheard of for villains to do the same.

Second, in terms of Tobi still being Obito in addition to Madara, it could be a slightly more mundane explaination instead of the whole soul-transfer or possession thing. It could simply be that after Obito decided to hate everyone and seek power (sometime after his crushing defeat, pun intended) that he started calling himself Madara to mask his identity. By the same token, when he realized that the name Madara had gained a small amount of infamy and he wanted to lay low and just observe things from within Akatsuki, he took on another name again, this time inspired by the original.

[Frenchie]

The only problem I see with that theory othafa, is that Madara was known by the Kyuubi. It seems a bit of a stretch to me, thinking of Obito somehow meeting the demon fox. It just doesn't seem to fit the character. It also means that he'd be extremely young during the encounter, slightly older than when he was featured in Kakashi Gaiden.

And that the gentle kid would turn to so much evil, when he accomplished so much good for his teammates. And have chakra even more accursed than Kyuubi.

I don't know, it just feels like a huge stretch to get there haha, and I'm not sure I don't like the Madara possessing Obito theory more.

[0TaKu0]

Holy shit guys lol, remember when I said its either the "Tobi" that was with Deidara was a 30% clone made by Pein or he used the MS to teleport him self elsewhere. Well, after looking at the spoiler page (what seems to be the last page of the chapter) it seems like Madobi teleports out after his conversation with Pein and BH is over.

[othafa]

Originally Posted by El_Frenchie

The only problem I see with that theory othafa, is that Madara was known by the Kyuubi. It seems a bit of a stretch to me, thinking of Obito somehow meeting the demon fox. It just doesn't seem to fit the character. It also means that he'd be extremely young during the encounter, slightly older than when he was featured in Kakashi Gaiden.

And that the gentle kid would turn to so much evil, when he accomplished so much good for his teammates. And have chakra even more accursed than Kyuubi.

I don't know, it just feels like a huge stretch to get there haha, and I'm not sure I don't like the Madara possessing Obito theory more.

Can someone tell me the age of Kakashi during Kakashi Gaiden, and also the difference in age between Naruto and Kakashi? Once I hear this, we'll know for sure, but I think there was a rather significant span of time between when Obito "died" and Kyuubi attacked. Also, given what happened to Obito, drastic changes in psyche over a very short period of time should not be out of the question.

Also, as I've said before, one possible explaination for that small inconsistency could be that Madara was the one who was responsible for, or maybe in collusion with, the Kyuubi's attack on the village. We've seen that even boss summons are susceptible to Sharingan genjutsu, so it may not be out of the question that Kyuubi was not acting under his own will when he attacked. I would imagine that whoever Madara was, their relationship was something more than fleeting, not for any plot reasons but because Kishi would not have had Kyuubi mention Madara's name if he was not meaning to highlight some more extensive backstory that we'll hear about later.

[Nuu]

very interesting..... now i wounder what we might see for people trying to do time/space ninjutsu

[abazou]

It'll be really interesting to see how the 3 Uchihas will react, i mean i wonder if Itachi knows who Madara is and how superior is he to other Uchihas. Maybe Itachi will let Sasuke kill him so he could obtain a stronger Sharingan.

[Frenchie]

Well, I like the theory of having Kyuubi under influence of the Sharingan during the attack on the village. And as you said, mentioning the sharingan on boss summons, it wouldn't surprise me if Kishi was making some sort of foreshadowing.

I'm still not sure about Obito, and having the fox under influence would sort of negate the responsibility it played during the very first episode of Naruto, and would also make him a lesser evil than Sharingan.

I like the idea, but then, I'd like to think Kyuub' is more accursed than the origins of the Sharingan. I suppose that hope is lost when he stated himself that Sasuke had it more than him. Heh.

Oh well. ^^

[othafa]

Itachi probably knows who Madara is, because he mentioned pre-timeskip that, including Sasuke, there were three people who were capable of MS. Based on his surprise during the rescue Gaara arc that Kakashi had improved his own eyes, it is safe to assume that Itachi thought him incapable of that ability, which means that we have had an Uchiha that, until now, only Itachi knew about. Other people may disagree with this, and there is a whole post on the "3rd MS user", so I won't go too far into it here.

Originally Posted by Sandaime78

Just wondering if anyone ever thought of this...

1). Kakashi's left eye is a sharingan given by Obito.
2). Tobi's right eye is now confirmed as sharingan.
3). To - obi / obi - to (is it a Katakana or Kanji for the name spelling?) but I'm sure it's only two words in Japanese and they are the same in reverse.

Hell I even mentioned it earlier in this very same thread... It always irks me when people don't RTFT.

[SamuraiX]

I just hope that Naruto doesn't end up like Gundam Seed Destiny because thats how it seems to be going right now.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by othafa

First, in terms of c4, I think that his inner thoughts don't necessarily indicate an acting job. If you think about it, no one had ever seen c4 before, and there is no other jutsu that can kill you so completely in such a covert way. Furthermore, its a jutsu that can kill an unlimited number of enemies as long as they're close enough. I can imagine any shinobi of any level thinking that this move is quite powerful (I think its the most destructive move we've seen so far).

I wasn't saying that it was an acting job. I'm saying that considering what we know now about Tobi; that he is in fact Madara and was probably participating in that battle mainly to gauge Sasuke's progress, his thoughts seem strange to me because they didn't mention Sasuke in the slightest even though he seems to be Madara/Tobi's main interest. In other words, even when we saw his thoughts, there was no hint of an ulterior motive. Granted, that was the only occasion where actually saw Tobi speaking to himself.

I think that everyone is prejudiced against villains in this way; that its acceptable for good guys to act goofy when their lives aren't on the line, but unheard of for villains to do the same.

That's because acting goofy indicates a degree of innocence which is usually associated with good characters. With villains this behavior is sometimes seen in henchmen who are misguided and maybe somewhat dense like Tobi's character appeared to be. But for a criminal mastermind who seems to be both very powerful and highly intelligent it is very odd. C'mon, this is a guy who even the Kyuubi respects.

Second, in terms of Tobi still being Obito in addition to Madara, it could be a slightly more mundane explaination instead of the whole soul-transfer or possession thing. It could simply be that after Obito decided to hate everyone and seek power (sometime after his crushing defeat, pun intended) that he started calling himself Madara to mask his identity. By the same token, when he realized that the name Madara had gained a small amount of infamy and he wanted to lay low and just observe things from within Akatsuki, he took on another name again, this time inspired by the original.

Like both El Frenchie and I mentioned earlier I find that explanation to be highly unlikely because there is a very narrow gap between the events of the Gaiden and the sealing of the Kyuubi, probably only a year. That's not nearly enough time for Obito to recover from his injuries, discover the secret to unlocking MS, transition into Madara and encounter the Kyuubi.

It they are the same person, it seems like Madara's soul being inside Obito is a better explanation, though the whole soul-transfer thing has already been done several times.

[abazou]

Originally Posted by SamuraiX

I just hope that Naruto doesn't end up like Gundam Seed Destiny because thats how it seems to be going right now.

Hmm i dont see any robots

[neoeagle]

No more theories.Thats a relief.