Nanoha Franchise General Discussion Thread

[Sunder the Gold]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

No, no, I really did think you gave a good answer, and I was commending you for it.

I then segued into a reply to Kaijo without actually quoting his post just to save space.

'Kay.

I do stuff like that, myself.

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by Demi.

If by most you mean 75% of it, then yeah. Plus a large part of their screen time were group scenes where all or several characters were the focus.



/lazy

lol for anything but NanoFate XD

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Demi.

That is largely irrelevant though, in my opinion.

Demi., one of the things that has been argued since the movie's release was that Fate got a TON of development for herself and nanoha got next to nothing in the A's movie (and in the first movie as well).

I think it's pretty relevant to the ongoing discussion.

But then again, we need someone other than you, me, Kaijo, or Triple_R to look at it, we're all biased one way or the other.

[XenahortCharybdis]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Legend of Galactic Heroes ran for a whopping 110 episodes. So that's not at all an appropriate comparison here.

I think Sheba's point was about ambition vs execution, so the comparison stands. 110 episodes is a long time, yes, but it's also a long time in which you can start writing yourself into a corner or end up with too many subplots, loose ends and dysfunctional character development issues.

Which is what StrikerS did. Just think about it, LoGH is a sprawling space opera. To put it in Nanoha-verse perspective it's like the Belkan War of Kings - the Saint's Cradle couldn't hold a candle to it. And yet the results are quite plain to see.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'll grant you that a bit less training and a bit more Numbers would have helped, yeah. But StrikerS was always biting off a bit more than it could chew, imo.

Agreed for sure, though I for one think they could have used a bit less of everything and a bit more plot.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Which is why Negima strictly limited character cast expansion beyond that, IIRC.

And still ends up with character depth worth bugger all. Sweet bloody Fanny Adams.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Let's put aside, for a second, what we personally would like or dislike.

My point is this - StrikerS diminished the standing of certain characters in the minds of the broader Nanoha fandom. This is because they were pushed aside more - Yuuno and Arf barely show up in StrikerS, for example. I likewise can't remember Chrono getting many scenes in StrikerS (which honestly I regret; Chrono as an adult male struck me as really cool and well-rounded).

StrikerS diminished the perceived presence of these characters, which I think undermined their standing some for the reboot movies.

I'm not saying I like it, I'm saying that once a character gets pushed way into the background, it can be difficult to restore him or her to a certain level of prominence.

I think some of us wanted the movies to be a Fix Fic of some sorts, which resulted in the disappointment when that didn't materialize. Can't really blame them for it.

So for those of you who still give a toss, time to shake your fists in impotent rage at the corporate interests and the power of yuri fandom that has blinded them to the idea of basic storytelling!

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And just to be clear, I won't play character favoritism here. I'm at a point where even Nanoha herself getting killed by a major villain is something I could imagine myself getting behind. I mean, if it was handled like Superman's death, at least it would be a truly epic heroic send-off, the final exclamation mark on a legendary hero's life and legacy.

Until DC flipped the retcon switch. I'm looking at you, Innocent!

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

I think overall what Kaijo was trying to say was, regardless of profit, something happened during StrikerS that seems to have curtailed any animated seasons from being developed, and he's figuring it's something to do with the economics of the franchise.

Well, I'll tell you what that is. It's the Economy of Scale and Stakes. After blowing your Independence Day Plot load, there's not a lot more you can do to up the ante without going for an all-out magitech space opera. And I doubt 7Arcs is going to be ready for that even when we're all old and wrinkled!


And on another note, for heaven's sake why are we even arguing about this whole 'character screentime' issue? I think we can all agree on the cause - it's the fault of whichever bunch of boneheads they put together to produce the movie and the corporate bigwig fatcat yurigoggling...uh, people behind those SEELE-esque blackboards. The only difference between us is whether we give a toss about that at the end of the day, and if so to what extent and for what reasons. And that's a personal thing - can't we just leave it at that? This argument has long become a long series of personal attacks and opinionated E-schlong-waving masquerading as a genuine sincere exchange of logical ideas.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold

In regards to exact screentime of Nanoha and Fate:

Numbers don't include the amount of screentime they share, nor what time they share with others (or serve as a background character), nor what that time is used for.

Honestly, it's essentially what I've been saying from the start. Nanoha's longer battles with Vita, and her battle with Reinforce equal the time of the dream eater sequence and her little chat with Lindy..Essentially making every other scene either very short transition scenes of them solo or scenes where they are together. Or yes, the times when they are background characters (again, together)

Originally Posted by Nanya

Demi., one of the things that has been argued since the movie's release was that Fate got a TON of development for herself and nanoha got next to nothing in the A's movie (and in the first movie as well).

I think it's pretty relevant to the ongoing discussion.

But then again, we need someone other than you, me, Kaijo, or Triple_R to look at it, we're all biased one way or the other.

Yeah, she got a ton of development, but whats wrong with using the screen time she does have for development, as long as she doesn't have an over abundance of screen time as compared to other characters. That's what I don't quite get. Tsuzuki chooses to use Nanoha differently than Fate, that doesn't mean Nanoha is being shafted.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by XenahortCharybdis

I think Sheba's point was about ambition vs execution, so the comparison stands. 110 episodes is a long time, yes, but it's also a long time in which you can start writing yourself into a corner or end up with too many subplots, loose ends and dysfunctional character development issues.

Nobody's saying that Nanoha is as well-written as LoGH.

My point is that if you're basically saying "LoGH managed to juggle all these characters, so why couldn't StrikerS?", that's simply not a good or fair point. LoGH had substantially more time to work with than StrikerS, which is huge when it comes to developing extremely large casts.

So I disagree, that comparison does not stand given the context of discussion. It it simply not a fair comparison given what we're talking about here (i.e. managing large cast sizes).

So for those of you who still give a toss, time to shake your fists in impotent rage at the corporate interests and the power of yuri fandom that has blinded them to the idea of basic storytelling!

I get that the A's movie's degree of Chrono/Lindy focus really is something worth criticizing. But by the same token, some people here really are going overboard with it. It is not downright narrative-breaking. It does not mean that the Nanoha A's movie has a totally bad story. It still has mostly good storytelling, imo.

[Nanya01]

By itself? No, the Chrono and Lindy development isn't narrative breaking.

however, with all the OTHER problems the A's movie had, when you add it up, makes for some really bad narrative.

[XenahortCharybdis]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Nobody's saying that Nanoha is as well-written as LoGH.

My point is that if you're basically saying "LoGH managed to juggle all these characters, so why couldn't StrikerS?", that's simply not a good or fair point. LoGH had substantially more time to work with than StrikerS, which is huge when it comes to developing extremely large casts.

So I disagree, that comparison does not stand given the context of discussion. It it simply not a fair comparison given what we're talking about here (i.e. managing large cast sizes).

I can only really say that the second part of your argument doesn't fit the first, since juggling your characters right within your given timeframe is one of the most basic markers of a well-written plot.

I'll leave it at that.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Let's put aside, for a second, what we personally would like or dislike.

My point is this - StrikerS diminished the standing of certain characters in the minds of the broader Nanoha fandom. This is because they were pushed aside more - Yuuno and Arf barely show up in StrikerS, for example. I likewise can't remember Chrono getting many scenes in StrikerS (which honestly I regret; Chrono as an adult male struck me as really cool and well-rounded).

StrikerS diminished the perceived presence of these characters, which I think undermined their standing some for the reboot movies.

I'm not saying I like it, I'm saying that once a character gets pushed way into the background, it can be difficult to restore him or her to a certain level of prominence.

Count me as one of the few that didn't feel StrikerS diminished anything. Yes, a bit upset Yuuno and Arf got pushed into the background, but they didn't have any real developmental needs at that point. They obviously aren't going to address any romantic angles with regard to the cast, so other than that, Yuuno didn't have any hinted at areas where he could develop. Other than seeing him battle as his hinted at incredible powers.

But it's only difficult to bring a character into focus for bad writers. All it takes one story to develop someone and turn them into a badass.

Besides, you're not seeing the reason why Arf, Yuuno, Arisa, and Suzuka were put on a bus... Because a lot of Fate fans hate Yuuno for being competition. And without Arisa and Suzuka, Nanoha would only have Fate to turn to. And without Arf, Fate would only have Nanoha to turn to. They were casualties to emphasize the NanoFate dynamic to sell stuff to the fanatics. Anime, more than any other relies on a fanatic fanbase to buy every poster, figma, pillow, and special BD collection.

Nonetheless, Fate is massively more important to this franchise than Chrono and Yuuno currently is. That's a meta-level fact that just can't be ignored if you want to have realistic expectations for the Nanoha films. It's fine to not like this, but at some point, I feel like I'm talking to people who's major underdog pro sports team just lost (predictably) in the finals. It's sad, sure, but it's not like it should surprise you.

Although, if you want to believe some, StrikerS sold well despite having less NanoFate focus, proving that you can do a story that focuses on other people. You don't need to pander. Even if we go with the premise of Fate being popular and important, you can still do a story that gives other people the stage to develop. Take Teana and Subaru for example.

Even Vice, a freakin' secondary side character, got some development with minimal screentime! It's really not that hard to do, though I suppose you could have cut the Vice scenes for more NanoFate focus in StrikerS. Might it have fared better then? Maybe. But look at what we got with Vice instead? Wasn't that worth it?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

By itself? No, the Chrono and Lindy development isn't narrative breaking.

however, with all the OTHER problems the A's movie had, when you add it up, makes for some really bad narrative.

I respect your opinion, but ultimately we'll probably have to agree to disagree here.


There was no element of the plot in the A's movie that destroyed my suspension of disbelief. The plot was easy to follow, but detailed enough to keep my interest. It didn't have many strokes of brilliance or wow-ing plot twists, but it was decent. It was a bit haphazard in some areas. On the whole, it's basically what I expect of the animated equivalent of an action blockbuster popcorn flick.

But to be fair, I'm not actually that hard a guy to please when it comes to the plot. If I can follow the plot, if it's interesting, if it's emotionally engaging, if it doesn't have too many "cheap" elements (i.e. Gary Stus, Mary Sues, deus ex machinas, stuff like that), and if it has a decent climax, chances are I'll like it.

[Nanya01]

Again, considering the bland action, bland music, how they handled Yuuno, how they handled Chrono and Lindy's subplot, the fact that they added several scenes of fluff for Nanoha and Fate that could EASILY be written out (Walking home after school, the stick training, anything after Fate was introduced to the class up to where the plot started to kick in) and the Lotus Dream Eater (could have been minimized or written out for better scenes all around) portion really adds up to a piss-poor movie.

[Demi.]

Most of those things you listed, people enjoyed though.

I thought the music was great during key moments, I thought the action was better than the series (how is the action bad in this movie?)

..and the rest you listed is mere subjectivity to what you would have preferred to replace those scenes.

[Nanya01]

Action was HORRIBLY dull.

The action scenes were MASSIVELY rushed through, you didn't get the sense of anything gripping was happening, by the time they started to even BEGIN to get interesting, they cut away from the action scene or it ended!

COME ON! We could have FINALLY had some FREAKING CLOSURE with the Fate/Signum fight! Nope, cut over to Arf and Zafira who exchange ONE SINGLE PUNCH!

Then Shamal does a Flash Bang and the Wolkenritter escape.

How about Nanoha vs Reinforce? Oh, hey, the ONLY good fight in the movie!

Oh, what's that? Photon Lancer Genocide Shift? Yay! This looks awesome!

Cut away to Fate in the LDE!

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU~~~!

The action scenes were the ONLY part of the movie I was looking forward to, since the REST of the movie I knew wasn't going to be anything I'd be too interested in.

And they FAILED, miserably!

Hell, I got better action scenes from the StrikerS training episodes!

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Demi.

That's what I don't quite get. Tsuzuki chooses to use Nanoha differently than Fate, that doesn't mean Nanoha is being shafted.

There are some things I agree with you about, and some things I disagree with you about, that is mainly opinion. But this, Demi...

The first movie took away every bit of backstory and development Nanoha had. You can't look at that, and come away thinking she hadn't been shafted. And if you're still thinking screentime, that doesn't equate to development. In the series, Nanoha was able to reach out to Fate, because of her past with Arisa and Suzuka. She recognized how hard it was to reach out to someone you are in conflict with, but if you could do it, you'd find something worthwhile in the end.

In the 1st movie, Nanoha reached out to Fate because she had pretty eyes. Which I suppose is something some people might like to see.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Count me as one of the few that didn't feel StrikerS diminished anything.

Yes, a bit upset Yuuno and Arf got pushed into the background, but they didn't have any real developmental needs at that point. They obviously aren't going to address any romantic angles with regard to the cast, so other than that, Yuuno didn't have any hinted at areas where he could develop. Other than seeing him battle as his hinted at incredible powers.

But it's only difficult to bring a character into focus for bad writers. All it takes one story to develop someone and turn them into a badass.

Besides, you're not seeing the reason why Arf, Yuuno, Arisa, and Suzuka were put on a bus... Because a lot of Fate fans hate Yuuno for being competition.

This is a clear contradiction in your own argument.

You just argued "Yuuno didn't have any real development needs at that point". If so, isn't that a legitimate reason for him being put on a bus?

In any event, you're missing the real reason Arf and Yuuno were put on a bus - There's a limit to how much you can divide combat scenes. StrikerS already had loads to juggle there with no fewer than 7 major different fronts in the same big, climatic battle (Nanoha vs. Vivio, Fate vs. Jail, Eiro/Caro vs. Lutecia and entourage, Teana vs. 3 Numbers, Subaru vs. Ginga, Vita's action scenes, Signum's action scenes). There's simply no room left for Yuuno and Arf. They get put on a bus for much the same reason as Shamal and Zafira did.

And when a narrative pushes characters like Chrono, Yuuno, and Arf aside to make room for new protagonists, that sends an implicit message to the audience...

Originally Posted by Nanya01

Again, considering the bland action, bland music, how they handled Yuuno, how they handled Chrono and Lindy's subplot, the fact that they added several scenes of fluff for Nanoha and Fate that could EASILY be written out (Walking home after school, the stick training, anything after Fate was introduced to the class up to where the plot started to kick in) and the Lotus Dream Eater (could have been minimized or written out for better scenes all around) portion really adds up to a piss-poor movie.

We all know your opinion, Nanya. Many of us simply do not share it.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

Action was HORRIBLY dull.

The action scenes were MASSIVELY rushed through, you didn't get the sense of anything gripping was happening, by the time they started to even BEGIN to get interesting, they cut away from the action scene or it ended!

COME ON! We could have FINALLY had some FREAKING CLOSURE with the Fate/Signum fight! Nope, cut over to Arf and Zafira who exchange ONE SINGLE PUNCH!

Then Shamal does a Flash Bang and the Wolkenritter escape.

How about Nanoha vs Reinforce? Oh, hey, the ONLY good fight in the movie!

Oh, what's that? Photon Lancer Genocide Shift? Yay! This looks awesome!

Cut away to Fate in the LDE!

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU~~~!

Something tells me you just don't like fast paced action. The fights were a bit shorter, true, but the series frame rate during fights was drastically lower. A lot of still frames, non-moving scenery. While the movies action was fact-paced and eventful. A lot closer to how I would expect an aerial mage to fight.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Demi.

Something tells me you just don't like fast paced action. The fights were a bit shorter, true, but the series frame rate during fights was drastically lower. A lot of still frames, non-moving scenery. While the movies action was fact-paced and eventful. A lot closer to how I would expect an aerial mage to fight.

*Flat stare*

The fights in DBZ Abridged are more action-packed than any of the fights (Save for Reinforce) in the movie.

The fights in any of the Sailor Moon Movies were more action packed.

When I can look at those and see better action sequences, it's pretty bad, Demi.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

There are some things I agree with you about, and some things I disagree with you about, that is mainly opinion. But this, Demi...

The first movie took away every bit of backstory and development Nanoha had. You can't look at that, and come away thinking she hadn't been shafted. And if you're still thinking screentime, that doesn't equate to development. In the series, Nanoha was able to reach out to Fate, because of her past with Arisa and Suzuka. She recognized how hard it was to reach out to someone you are in conflict with, but if you could do it, you'd find something worthwhile in the end.

In the 1st movie, Nanoha reached out to Fate because she had pretty eyes. Which I suppose is something some people might like to see.

Yeah, and a big part of that was back story to Precia and Alicia which Fate was largely not a part of. Even so, if a character has enough screen time, they can use it to develop, if the writer/director so wishes it. Nanoha didn't need more screen time, she simply needed to use some that she did have for a different purpose.

And are we really going to keep at this? 'Cause y'know, I thought once I re-watched the whole movie and confirmed that Fate did not have more than Nanoha, this would have come to its inevitable conclusion.

[Nanya01]

Yeah, and a big part of that was back story to Precia and Alicia which Fate was largely not a part of.

But isn't Fate's backstory the fact that she's a clone of Alicia, thus Fate *IS* a part of it?

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

But isn't Fate's backstory the fact that she's a clone of Alicia, thus Fate *IS* a part of it?

That's a known fact, the back story was there to show why Precia went insane, and how Alicia died. Nothing more.

There were tiny bits inbetween with Fate and Linith, but a large majority of that was not Fate focus.