2010-11-29, 21:18 | Link #19223 | |
Miss Kimi
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Residing as the 18th guest of Rokkenjima
Age: 28
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2010-11-29, 22:41 | Link #19224 |
Thought Being
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Canada
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For a new topic, are there any comprehensive theories on Maria's rose? I wanna know what people's thoughts are. With it's use in the question and core arc openings, as well as it's significant focus in the questions arcs, especially as a repeating event, I'm not willing to accept that it was just some part of a plan to give Maria the letter. Ideas?
(Also, lol at people thinking Erika was the rose based on the EP5 opening)
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2010-11-29, 23:09 | Link #19225 |
Miss Kimi
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Residing as the 18th guest of Rokkenjima
Age: 28
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All I know about the rose was that it was withering, George left a marking on it, Maria couldn't find it, thus she stayed around and--- Oh .__.
CONVIENANTLY LOCATED ROSE FOR GETTING THE LETTER??? Yeah, I have no clue O_o
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2010-11-30, 00:16 | Link #19226 |
The True Culprit
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It's just an anchoring point. In every reality, Maria will become interested in that rose. And in every reality, Maria will want to check up on it. We can perhaps see it as a sort of crossroads, where we can more or less rest assured that all universes more or less remain the same up until the point that it's marked.
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2010-11-30, 01:35 | Link #19227 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Um...
Hm. The difficulty in finding the significance of the rose is deciding whether or not it's even important. I agree with AuraTwilight that it might just be one of those things to indicate that the basic setup is the same each time, like George's proposal, or the cousins relaxing at the beach. As far as theories, I read one where the rose disappeared because Godha took it for decorating dinner / dessert (I forget), another where George marks it intentionally, and another where it was all coincidence, and that the letter wouldve found it's way to Maria one way or another. Well at any rate, if the First Twilights are supposed to be faked, each and EVERY time, then it's not even necessary for the first letter to be read until the bodies are found. With the gambling / risks / odds theme that runs pretty rampant, I'm willing to believe that the entirety of the rose's significance is what a huge coincidence it all was... |
2010-11-30, 02:34 | Link #19229 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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That's only if the faking is intended to go on for a long time. If they only plan to be in place for, say, an hour, then it's not a big issue for them to be sitting at a table or hiding in a shed.
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2010-11-30, 02:58 | Link #19230 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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*Psst* see link in signature about this *cough* |
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2010-11-30, 05:17 | Link #19232 | ||||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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Although the comparison with "mindlessly typing" is quite exaggerated, I see no reason to think it doesn't match with what Rika was doing all along. In fact, she did so many times that she became jaded to the point she didn't care what was going on at some point, which was her hell and that "logic error": why keep going this, while she seemly had no chance to defeat her fate? Why bother when she will "obviously" die anyway? Quote:
Also, the fact she has a cat tail is a direct reference to Rika afflicted by Mion's punishment game, to the point Ryukishi made a Neko mimi rika tachi e back in Higurashi. Quote:
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Unsupported? I see no reason to think it is unsupported considering the several points about Bernkastel in general. Furthermore, Higurashi has already shown 2 distinct "Frederica": one trying to earn the happiness of Furude Rika, the other one observing without caring that much of the result, but rather the process. That Frederica definitely existed, yet she somehow cannot be the Bernkastel we know? I dunno, the several elements definitely bridge the gap. Using logic whereas we are dealing with fictional characters from a multiverse fiction doesn't work well either.
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Last edited by Klashikari; 2010-11-30 at 05:33. |
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2010-11-30, 05:30 | Link #19233 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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2010-11-30, 05:43 | Link #19234 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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I haven't said anything wrong there, I just couldn't think that someone would really try to rationalize this. Apparently you do, can't say much here as I can't prove that my interpretation is correct. But let me say that I don't consider your interpretation of a "logic error" correct. I don't see any element to support that view, not in Umineko. The logic error shown in Umineko is something that happens during the creation of a game. A logic error simply cannot exist without a Game Master and cannot possibly happen without a creation process. This is the evidence shown in the story. What you propose is nothing but a speculation. Quote:
So let me recapitulate. So far we have acknowledged that: -Umineko's set of kakera is different from Higurashi's set of kakera, due to Okonogi, the existence of magic and many other factors. -Umineko's Bernkastel is not the same Bernkastel shown in Higurashi. The same obviously goes with Featherinne. So basically the only element that is left for you to claim that there is a connection between the two stories is the common origin of the two Bernkastels. Am I correct so far? So you managed to dodge all the hints that I proposed to claim that Umineko's Bern has in fact a completely different background. But can you say that you actually proved that my interpretation is wrong? Can you provide a logical argument to prove that your interpretation is more likely? Basically the theory of a connection between Higurashi and Umineko is held by a single assumption that isn't even fully supported by hints, as alternative equally valid explanations exist. Or that's what I would say if I didn't think that your explanation of how Higurashi's Bern's predicament was a "monkey typewriter logic error" is an incredible stretch.
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2010-11-30, 06:04 | Link #19235 | ||||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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Lambdadelta confirmed that Bern's logical error wasn't caused by her, which arguably points out Hanyuu/Featherine. Although we do not have a "game" structure per se, we have the process of "creation" which caused the logic error. Furthermore, Lambdadelta confirms Bern's master lost sight of her goal, which was actually saving Rika... what they did for so long was just "retarding the inevitable". Furthermore, there were hints that hanyuu was just trying to enjoy the little happiness before the tragedy each times, which has put a huge guilt on her psyche. Instead of trying to save Rika so the latter will earn her happiness, she is looping the kakeras in order for her to have tiny share of happiness before every damn tragedy. It perfectly match the mention of "where the start and goal were connected like a donut." Quote:
Also, Umineko's Bernkastel isn't the same as the one in higurashi who is trying to work hard on Furude Rika's happiness. However, I believe she is the same Higurashi Bernkastel who is just observing things from a higher plane. You cannot deny the very high possibility both are the same, especially considering Minagoroshi-hen. If we were to consider that Frederica is a "piece" to Bernkastel, we can apply the same point towards Hanyuu, who is controlled by Featherine. Quote:
As for mine: -Umineko Bernkastel mentions she said "Mii niipa, fight-oh" "in the past" -Umineko Bernkastel has features from Furude Rika (aside of physical similarities, cat tail from a batsu game etc) -Lambdadelta confirms that Bernkastel was stuck in a "hell", and wasn't a sentient piece before. She realized she was a "piece" only afterwards. This is applied to Higurashi Frederica, as she didn't have any idea what was going on, until much later, when she finally realized few recurring events, elaborating rules X, Y Z as result. -Lambdadelta confirms that Umineko Bernkastel was counting the years, which Higurashi Frederica did: more than 100 years of hell in June 1983. -Over the sky BGM, the signature BGM for "Frederica" and the Kakera world is played when Umineko Bernkastel's background tidbit is revealed. -Lambdadelta confirms that Bern's master lost track of her true goal: in the end, it became a logical error, where the start and the goal looped for some reason. It matches with Hanyuu dropping her hope to save Rika, and instead, artificially "prolong" Rika's life, even if it is ridiculous. In the end, Frederica was the one to find the answer. This is why Lambda compares it to the monkey theorem: she was stuck in an endless loop, a logic error created by the sheer contradicting intent and goal of her master, and has to randomly do X or Y things to find a solution, which literally broke her heart. -Minagoroshi (both in the VN and manga) has shown there is another Frederica lurking in the Kakera world, observing this struggle. -The last hidden piece in Higurashi kai shows "Frederica" toying with some fragment (which couldn't be the one who found her happiness), and witness a piece where Tanashi Miyoko is happy as well. -Higurashi Frederica was always mentioning the "miracle" that has happened in Matsuribayashi-hen, which matches Lambdadelta mentioning that Umineko Bernkastel managed to create a miracle. -Higurashi Frederica mentions she will stop being a "witch" back in Higurashi Rei. Quote:
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Last edited by Klashikari; 2010-11-30 at 07:26. Reason: typo |
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2010-11-30, 08:48 | Link #19236 |
a.k.a. Akari_House
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere near Seattle
Age: 53
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If Bern was a cat, then clearly LamdaDelta must have been a Jack 'o Lantern. @_@
Now on the other hand, cats are familiars for witches, and in Umineko the role of the miko is that of a familiar. Also some have interpreted Rika's "mii~" as a kitten's mew (such as the Yen Press version, for however much that is worth). Rika clearly liked cats in any case. I don't think the cat motif necessarily means she was a cat previously any more than Beatrice was a butterfly, but is more a reflection of her taste. The very first thing I thought of when the chimpanzee typewriter allusion was made in the sound novel was Higurashi. Klashikari's explanation is dead on. The "mindless typing" was a simplified metaphor for when Rika/Frederica had given up trying and was just waiting out the random permutations of Hanyuu/AuAu's re-rolling of the dice until that miracle of probability came through (the "endurance contest"). I've never really doubted much that most of the allusions to Bern's past were about Higurashi. I'm much more curious about LamdaDelta's own logic error hell. Her description of the experience reminds me a little of Takano's experience at the orphanage, but in that case I think I am trying to read too much into it.
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2010-11-30, 10:17 | Link #19237 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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I think it can work in every episode that faking was intended, or at least fakery was the proposal made to the genuine victims by the killer; however, with the exception of ep5 and ep6, the fakery was never completed prior to the discovery. In those episodes, the FT actually was faked properly, but people were killed subsequent. It's possible that the ep1-4 killer(s) have no intention of a true faked FT, but say they do in order to kill their victims and hide among the corpses.
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2010-11-30, 10:36 | Link #19238 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Yeah, I like the idea of people getting together to pull a prank but the culprit wacking them in the process later. It would explain the phone calls in EP4, they fed Battler a lie and then the culprit made the murders fit them.
EP1s truths regarding the dead can be bypassed with the blue in EP5, the only real one that has problem with this is Kanon's death but that could be answered with Shkanon killing the personality or a name trick if Shkanon doesn't exist. |
2010-11-30, 10:41 | Link #19239 | |
Miss Kimi
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Residing as the 18th guest of Rokkenjima
Age: 28
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(lol, two topics at once xD. Bern's Background and faking the First Twilight)
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Or like the quote above, the killer went, "Hey, guys! Let's pretend we all DIE for no apparant reason! I promise I won't ACTUALLY kill you, this is just supposed to be a game, right~?" And why the heck would someone suggest pretending to be dead at all? Did they all plan this before they got to the island? I'm asking this because how the heck can they plan the deaths, get the drugs that faked the death (if there were any), and execute those plans in only a few hours? Who was twisted enough to think this? (the culprit <_<) Finally, why would they do this? A test for the survivors to see who is capable of being the new heir?
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2010-11-30, 10:50 | Link #19240 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Its easier to lead the people somewhere and kill them that kill them and drag their corpses to that place afterwards.
The kids are always chased out of the room for what we believe might be some nasty inheritance squabble, what if they really aren't evil bad people and just want to play a joke on the kids? |
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