2010-09-04, 12:55 | Link #17221 | |
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2010-09-04, 13:09 | Link #17223 | |
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I don't know, I cannot shake the impression that this can either be a pleasant surprise, or condensed bullshit. My main issue here is Yasu's motivation. According to Will and Claire, what pushed Yasu to do all of this took place sometime after (s)he solved the Epitaph and the 1986 conference. However, according to them, this is something that has already been shown "countless times". If the whole thing comes down to his/her feelings toward Battler, Jessica and George, then I cannot help but to think Yasu is some sick, selfish individual I cannot sympathise with, no matter how much love I may try to put into this, yet R07 has been portraying Beatrice, so far, as some sort of tragic heroine. Maybe, I've missed the details where she's portrayed as such... I don't know.
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2010-09-04, 13:14 | Link #17224 |
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Bern didn't just faked those documents for her theory to work. Those documents are the conclusions from reasoning, from all the facts they gathered during the tale. It's the established "truth" of that tale. They aren't premise for her truth, so she didn't "faked" them.
As for the ending, by Battler's views Beatrice isn't a bad person - he apologized to her. And we know that she was going to kill the people and blow up the island. We also know her motives. Are they good enough? Many people certainly don't think so. Only her miserable fail saved her from becoming the murderer. She's still the trigger for another murderer though. Last edited by cmos; 2010-09-04 at 13:25. |
2010-09-04, 13:20 | Link #17225 | |
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2010-09-04, 13:26 | Link #17226 | ||
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Plus, the Tea Party pretty much denies outright the possibility of Yasu even being a culprit, because it isn't culpably her fault any of that goes down. If she wanted to convince us that she's the culprit, she didn't do a very good job of it. She's not very sympathetic if she is the culprit and this is her motivation, but it felt like at least one of those claims probably isn't true.
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2010-09-04, 13:31 | Link #17227 | |
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Actually, it does. Even if she didn't kill anyone, she's the reason why all these murders began. She's the one who set up the situation for everyone to kill each other.
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2010-09-04, 13:35 | Link #17228 | |
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2010-09-04, 13:46 | Link #17229 |
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I'm fine with any ending as long as Ryu doesn't "revive" too many people. Actually, if only Battler, who hasn't been shown killed in Tea Party, survived, that would be enough for a bittersweet ending, in my opinion. Ange gets her onii-chan and some "truth" to settle her mind, we get our bittersweetness. All other fans cry. When they cry.
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2010-09-04, 14:10 | Link #17230 | |
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Bluntly, "Beatrice" didn't kill a single person in the Tea Party, nor did she ever do anything that actually suggested she was going to (she claimed she was going to, but a claim is not proof of actual intent in the face of the contrary evidence). And if we go so far as to suggest this is somehow approaching the "truth," it means she only ever did kill anyone in fiction.
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2010-09-04, 14:37 | Link #17231 | |
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No, she doesn't. She summarizes nothing of what just happened that we saw, and if you had read it, you would know this already. She tells her brother that kids in her class were picking on her because the television said that her mother had connections to "bad people", and therefore her father and mother were the culprits that killed everyone. Does accurately sum up the Tea Party and what happened to Will and Lyon? There is never a single point where Battler seems to be aware at all with what Bern is doing with the copy of Beato's board, any more than someone that owns the original chess board could possibly know what kind of game someone is playing in the privacy of their own home. (Furthermore, if Battler had been watching all this from "somewhere", you would think he wouldn't have to ask why she's so sad.) Really, Renall, I'm beginning to think this is pointless if you haven't played the game yet.
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2010-09-04, 14:48 | Link #17232 |
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Then why is he offering her that story? "Oh here's something completely unrelated to what you actually meant, yeah you'll like this one."
There is a clear continuity there, given the last instance in which we saw both of those characters. The meeting and what preceded it isn't a coincidence. I will agree that there is no indication Battler is watching, but I don't think this scenario is just set up to be cute. Think about narrative continuity for a bit and it starts to add up. Battler's behavior is an essential element of that, and it doesn't reflect that he's just been sitting there on the sidelines of the entire episode metaphorically covering his ears. Whether he saw those actual events or not, he's supposedly gotten himself enlightened to the point that he'd probably grasp the nature of events previously. Unless you're saying that back in Ange's actual youth this scene occurred?
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2010-09-04, 14:54 | Link #17233 | |
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Those documents were court documents, they were documents of a string of reasoning that was in itself and for that game consistent. Bern actually had to forge nothing in that game to make it possible for Natsuhi to be the culprit. It was the same if someone had stopped EP1 after discovery of the 2nd twilight. Her whole behaviour made her the most suspicious person during those events. She kept insisting to have met Kinzo, what made her the last to see him alive during Episode 1 and before his dissappearance in Episode 5. She was practically vanished for longer periods of time and she insisted on not telling anybody what she was doing during that time. The tragedy was that Bernkastel and Lambdadelta did not have to 'fake' anything in the first place, because Natsuhi was making herself suspicious very well on her own. It's the same with Rosa in Episode 2 or Eva in Episode 3 (if they're not accomplices). It's not about fantheories or missing love for the characters. Okay, yes, it is about love. But failing to show compassion for the suspects does not make your reasoning an immediate lie ... therefore any George-culprit theory would have to be stopped because of that, too, because it fails to show love for George. It's like it was said and like I already quoted once. There are things that you can't see without love, but also things that you fail to see because of love. And many people are trying to hard to find the 'ultra happy ending' solution...it's just as wrong as Bernkastel's viewpoint that everybody is a selfcentered monster.
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2010-09-04, 14:55 | Link #17234 | |
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The truth is that Kyrie probably does have bad connections. Those connections could plausibly give a motive as to why she would kill everyone on the island. But none of those things have to mean that Kyrie is "evil." So you can tell nothing but the truth, and still spin it negatively to hurt someone. Or you can tell the truth and try to help people understand and cope with it. This doesn't change the truth itself, only in how it's used.
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2010-09-04, 14:56 | Link #17235 | |
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And a number of people who might want to see her get away with it, too. EDIT: Actually, what the hell has Lambda been up to this whole time? She was barely in ep7 either. I know she wasn't exactly invited, but she doesn't seem like the sort who cares about an invitation.
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2010-09-04, 15:15 | Link #17236 |
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The difference is that Genji and Natsuhi didn't come up with a plan in which all of the people in the island could be killed. Yasu did. It's because of that plan, and the situation s(he) had created that things ended up the way they did in EP7's Tea Party - well, although, according to Bern, as long as there's an Epitaph and it is solved shit will happen, as we saw it in Lyon's world. But, either way, in her world, Yasu was the one to come up with this wicked plan.
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2010-09-04, 15:15 | Link #17237 | ||
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I also never said I wanted a happy ending either. Everything that happened in that episode implied that Lambda was doing Bern favors and the only redeeming quality for Lambda in episode 5 is the implication that she was planning to get Battler to switch sides and kick Bern's butt at the end. Each and every piece in play Erika, the Esierne Jungfrau, and the man from 19 years ago, are all pieces that serve Bern's agenda to prove her theory right just fine. If you don't want to beleive that that's fine with me. Quote:
I'm a George Culprit theorist exactly because I don't hate his character. I see many ways I can relate with him and I have a lot of respect for the character as he's been presented. I have respect for the type of antagonist he'd become in this story if he was the culprit. I don't think he's been completely unhateful. However he has a lot of implications backing him, and I can see plenty of reason for him to be the mind behind a lot of things in this tale. Much less then I can see it for plenty of other characters.
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2010-09-04, 15:21 | Link #17238 | |
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I have a hard time finding a vague, barely-supported, motivationally-questionable "plan" that never comes to pass in a presentation of questionable merit to begin with as "wicked." If we're going to indict someone for what she claims herself to be capable of doing, there's a lot more guilt to go around. That's really my problem with it. She's acting like this is all her fault, and I can't accept that even if some of it is. It reads like the exact same "Yep, it's me, hate me instead and everything's fine" stuff from ep2 that Beatrice was offering Battler. Even if we assume her entire plan was true, it had an escape clause, she was earnest and sincere when that clause was met, and it was only because someone else screwed things up that any tragedy befell people. By its very nature, that can't be placed fully on her shoulders.
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2010-09-04, 15:34 | Link #17239 | |
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It has to say something that even in a Fragment where Yasu doesn't even exist, everyone still dies. That means that regardless of the actions of Beatrice, people die. To me, that says there is potentially a larger plan in motion, in which Yasu is only a cog, and in which Lyon will get swept up in, regardless of their own actions or how they lead their lives.
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2010-09-04, 15:36 | Link #17240 | ||
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Of course, there's the possibility none of these killings were performed by Yasu, and that (s)he never really planned to harm anyone. All the threats were just there to scare the people and force them to solve the Epitaph. However, is there enough evidence to conclude the murders were actually carried out by someone else? Claire and Will said the answer to all of this lies somewhere after Yasu solved the Epitaph and the family conference of 1986. How much evidence do we have to find another culprit? Quote:
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