Are Some People Taking Sales Charts Too Seriously When Gauging Anime Lately?

[Archon_Wing]

I don't give a fuck.

[serenade_beta]

Reminds me of the Toaru Index's second? season final impressions thread.
There were some people that were criticizing parts of the anime and then one person went (something along the line of) "Oh well, it's selling well, so it doesn't matter" against those criticism.
That was entertaining.

[NoemiChan]

I don't mind either. If they make a sequel then good. If not, could I do anything? Nothing.

But I'll be surprise if my favorite anime will have a sequel without me either knowing and expecting right?

Now that reminds me. Hurry for Dog Days and High School DxD!!!!

[Chandela]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

I don't give a fuck.

This guy is doing it right.

[HasuMasu]

It sort of matters when we start talking about chances of another season.

Other than that, though...

[starlol]

I believe that shows with good sales tend to mean that there's some quality in there.
Although good shows may have bad/average sales because the fans are not that hardcore.

But ever since that series I love(read the novel and love it!) with adaptations that did not disappoint me got terrible sales(was at passable line) because of stupid controversies , I started to depend on the sales chart lesser.

I also realize that somehow my favourite shoujo manga got really average sales while I can hardly get into some of the popular ones(It's either I like it but don't like it enough to read the manga or half way through it got so repetitive that I dropped very soon).

[Kirarakim]

I definitely do not see sales as any indication of quality.

However I am not going to lie I want to see series I enjoy do well and I am less happy when series I am not fond of sell well.

And yes I understand opinions are opinions but when I see series with tons of fanservice, wish fulfillment female & male characters, cliche written plots, it does irk me a little that something like this sells.

I am just being honest and I think it's human nature to want things you enjoy to succeed (I am not some kind of hipster that I don't want more people to discover my favorite series). And I am also being honest that I don't want a series with what I think are negative elements to succeed. It's like I feel the wrong series are being rewarded. I mean its not like I dwell on this or attack the fans of those series but that is just how I honestly feel.

On another note better sales can lead to continuations of ongoing series but it can also mean more merchandise.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Blaat

I voted for somewhat important I only care about sale charts when I want to know if I show I like is doing well and has a chance to get a sequel.

This. I only look up sales for shows I like and/or want to see more of. If a show I like sells well, then it makes me happy since I feel the creators have been justly rewarded for their work.

It would never occur to me to use sales numbers as an indicator of quality. It's only an indicator of popularity (and even then, there are a lot of other factors to take into account), and I would hope everybody knows popularity isn't (always) proportional to quality. Bad and good anime alike can sell well or badly. It's preposterous to argue a show is better than another because it's more popular.

[risingstar3110]

One word for me: Sequel.

Good sale, more anime for me to watch in few years . Lower sale , have to look for manga to quench my thirst
Other than that, it's not important for me, as many good shows really got low sale due to the limited demographic

[Archon_Wing]

Alright, I guess you people deserve my reasoning for why I don't consider it of any value for relevant discussion.

It would be silly to say that sales in no ways reflects the quality of an anime. Obviously if something sells, and at the ridiculous prices they sell for over there, the product must be up to some kind of value.

If something sells it's doing it's job. It fits its intended purpose in appealing to a certain subsection of people. But does "It fulfills its purpose, therefore it is good." really hold any water? Of course it does! Problem is what we are defining here. Good for what? Numbers are objective, but people aren't. And this is where I feel that a lot of where the animosity comes from when sales get brought up. Suddenly people view it as like the star from Super Mario Brothers. Screw the rules, I have numbers! They dismiss people's arguments as subjective while holding the only objective measurement in the house, therefore they win!

Except analyzing these numbers is also a subjective measure, and not realizing this can make you quite insufferable. The smug generated from douchebaggery contributes to global warming. Stop already.

It also makes people uncomfortable, as valuing everything in terms of $ is. Imagine if you killed someone that is only worth $20k a year, and the penalty is only 1/3 as much as you killing someone worth $60k a year, and you could kill homeless people for free. Of course, we'd love to imagine certain concepts worth more than the currency paper that can be valued to them. But this is neither here nor there.

Let's talk about fast food chains. Now, I bet some of you are reading this, and getting ready to hit the reply button thinking "OMFG not another pretentious anti-intellectual hipster argument!" Don't worry, I'm only pretentious on Thursdays and no I'm not going to insult everyone's intelligence by making vague circular arguments about otaku pandering. But regardless of what you think of the quality of fast food, there's certainly a dominant factor in them being successful and it's not on some kind of culinary merit.

Marketing. Business. Efficiency. They make their product known, they find efficient methods of distributing said product, and spend resources on actually making sure the product is to of some degree of acceptable quality. You can't sell anything if people don't know about it right?

So what do I see when an anime sells well? Good business practices. They used their limited resources and managed them well, and also managed to get their desired consumer base to come in and buy the product. Clearly getting a nice return on investment is something to be complimented on, and wise business practices ensure us sequels...

Which has fuckall to what I value in an anime. What's good for the business and industry isn't good for everyone else, necessarily. It's nice that there are many aspiring businesspeople that can manage an operation well, but honestly, why would I care? If they fail, then competition will take its place anyways. It's not like I'm a shareholder.

In the end, I came to watch Japanese cartoons, not delve into the industry of them.

[Infinite Zenith]

Personally, it's about watching what I like more than anything. Sales charts aren't relevant to me because I'll probably watch and/or drop something based on whether or not I like it. If it happens to be something everyone finds worthwhile and can prompt discussion, that's icing on the cake This short explanation hopefully justifies my vote sufficiently well

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

In the end, I came to watch Japanese cartoons, not delve into the industry of them.

While I agree with you that it shouldn't determine your own value on the subject, if you're like me and have been observing the industry for like nearly three decades (mainly on the manga side) it's kinda become part of your life to pay some attention to it.

For example, let's say if Magi on air currently wasn't fairing very well, I would think "gee, they may not make another season of this, and it will end incomplete. I wonder if they'll give it original ending, or just end after a stopping point." I can't say that wouldn't affect the experience with watching the anime, although I would attempt to set it aside and watch the show. (Thankfully the ratings Magi is getting is fantastic. )

[Nightbat®]

Wait, the entertainmentvalue of an anime I watch is connected to the number of sales?

or am I only supposed to like anime that has the most chance to get a sequel?

...weird way of looking at things

at most, the most popular show get promoted/noticed more, that's the only reason why I sooner come in contact with and get an inclination to watch such a show

[hyl]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Alright, I guess you people deserve my reasoning for why I don't consider it of any value for relevant discussion.

It would be silly to say that sales in no ways reflects the quality of an anime. Obviously if something sells, and at the ridiculous prices they sell for over there, the product must be up to some kind of value.

If something sells it's doing it's job. It fits its intended purpose in appealing to a certain subsection of people. But does "It fulfills its purpose, therefore it is good." really hold any water? Of course it does! Problem is what we are defining here. Good for what? Numbers are objective, but people aren't. And this is where I feel that a lot of where the animosity comes from when sales get brought up. Suddenly people view it as like the star from Super Mario Brothers. Screw the rules, I have numbers! They dismiss people's arguments as subjective while holding the only objective measurement in the house, therefore they win!

Except analyzing these numbers is also a subjective measure, and not realizing this can make you quite insufferable. The smug generated from douchebaggery contributes to global warming. Stop already.

It also makes people uncomfortable, as valuing everything in terms of $ is. Imagine if you killed someone that is only worth $20k a year, and the penalty is only 1/3 as much as you killing someone worth $60k a year, and you could kill homeless people for free. Of course, we'd love to imagine certain concepts worth more than the currency paper that can be valued to them. But this is neither here nor there.

Let's talk about fast food chains. Now, I bet some of you are reading this, and getting ready to hit the reply button thinking "OMFG not another pretentious anti-intellectual hipster argument!" Don't worry, I'm only pretentious on Thursdays and no I'm not going to insult everyone's intelligence by making vague circular arguments about otaku pandering. But regardless of what you think of the quality of fast food, there's certainly a dominant factor in them being successful and it's not on some kind of culinary merit.

Marketing. Business. Efficiency. They make their product known, they find efficient methods of distributing said product, and spend resources on actually making sure the product is to of some degree of acceptable quality. You can't sell anything if people don't know about it right?

So what do I see when an anime sells well? Good business practices. They used their limited resources and managed them well, and also managed to get their desired consumer base to come in and buy the product. Clearly getting a nice return on investment is something to be complimented on, and wise business practices ensure us sequels...

Which has fuckall to what I value in an anime. What's good for the business and industry isn't good for everyone else, necessarily. It's nice that there are many aspiring businesspeople that can manage an operation well, but honestly, why would I care? If they fail, then competition will take its place anyways. It's not like I'm a shareholder.

In the end, I came to watch Japanese cartoons, not delve into the industry of them.

You are saying that you don't care because it doesn't effect you because you only watch them.
Actually it does effect you as the viewer, based on the complaints that i have seen in various forums about the increased trend of getting more "moeblob" or "ecchi fanservice" shows or lack of certain other type shows. This trend is related to the succes and "busts" of those series.
It's rather that you know that you don't have any control over this trend, is the reason why you are not caring about it. Seeing that you are not the intended demographic target for their sales.

[HasuMasu]

Originally Posted by Nightbat®

Wait, the entertainmentvalue of an anime I watch is connected to the number of sales?

or am I only supposed to like anime that has the most chance to get a sequel?

...weird way of looking at things

at most, the most popular show get promoted/noticed more, that's the only reason why I sooner come in contact with and get an inclination to watch such a show

If I like a show chances are I'd like it to continue on in the future.

With shit sales that's never going to happen.

The thinking is backwards.

[Westlo]

What's with these loaded poll options? It's like the OP has an agenda behind the question and wants people to mainly vote for his choice, nah couldn't be. But knowing Kaoishin's history on this issue that's not exactly a surprise at all...

Seriously, who the hell is going to vote for...

All Important (It is the sole measure of quality that I use when gauging an anime's value)

That's just a wasted option. The next one is just as slanted to his opinion.

Very Important (I put much stock in sales charts to indicate market trends and which anime to watch)

The people who follow sales, myself, Last Sinner, Suzuku, the AnimeOnDVD gang (alot of people "into" sales knows that thread) all generally watch the shows of what we actually like (yeah like we would watch DEENs otome game adaptations or something because it sells well L O L), we would all consider sales Very Important, but the condescending bullshit he uses after doesn't apply to any of us and neither does the following.

Somewhat Important (I find sales charts interesting, but don't put a whole lot of stock in them).

The last two options are the only ones actually done right.

Sales are Very Important if you choose to give a shit about them, if you want to know what shows have a high chance to get a sequel or not. That's strictly my only motivation for following sales for anime, to know whether the stuff I enjoy will get a sequel (like duh SAO will get one) or not (Baccano ).

I really don't see much of the hiphop/console sales mentality (Men lie, women lie, numbers don't) when it comes to sales in anime fandom though, or maybe Kaoi's read too many SAO fans shitting on Accel World because the anime + light novels vastly outsell it.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

I don't give a fuck.

So if something you liked sold 80k or 1k you wouldn't give a shit? You wouldn't care that a sequel is more than likely on the way or has no chance of getting off the ground? You wouldn't care if your fav director just put out a commericail failure which means he wouldn't have a chance to direct again (like say Yamakan lol) or that another one of your fav directors (Hosada da gawd) just made a smash hit movie? You wouldn't care if someones directorial debut was stunning but he won't get another chance because of low sales? You wouldn't care if a long running light novel/manga you loved had a one cour adaptation which was a sales flop? Meaning the best of the series will never get animated? (or lets say most of it isn't translated and your best bet to see the end was multiple anime sequels?)

[Sheba]

Of course I would get more than a little angry if some series I think to be utter trash (on a subjective AND objective pov) is selling well, and sad when a series I like and think it needs more love is NOT doing well. Because for the former, it will be more of that shit and telling everyone that people who are paid for that shit don't even have to work hard as long as people will lap it up.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by aohige

While I agree with you that it shouldn't determine your own value on the subject, if you're like me and have been observing the industry for like nearly three decades (mainly on the manga side) it's kinda become part of your life to pay some attention to it.

For example, let's say if Magi on air currently wasn't fairing very well, I would think "gee, they may not make another season of this, and it will end incomplete. I wonder if they'll give it original ending, or just end after a stopping point." I can't say that wouldn't affect the experience with watching the anime, although I would attempt to set it aside and watch the show. (Thankfully the ratings Magi is getting is fantastic. )

This is fine, if you've developed an interest, but as you see our preferences are different.

Originally Posted by hyl

You are saying that you don't care because it doesn't effect you because you only watch them.
Actually it does effect you as the viewer, based on the complaints that i have seen in various forums about the increased trend of getting more "moeblob" or "ecchi fanservice" shows or lack of certain other type shows. This trend is related to the succes and "busts" of those series.
It's rather that you know that you don't have any control over this trend, is the reason why you are not caring about it. Seeing that you are not the intended demographic target for their sales.

I think you misinterpreted my post. Whether it affects me or not is not the issue. My point is that sales does prove something for the grand scheme of the industry, but not of the anime itself. I don't have any concern for praising the business strategies of them. The value of sales is not attributed fairly imo.

So what's the worse that could happen? Oh dear, I stop watching anime. What will I do? Make angry posts about it over the internet? Or maybe I get over myself and not rant about moeblobs and ecchi fanservice. Then again, I like the later anyways. Hah! I'm in line with the fanbase's taste. Surely earth shattering. I think the market works well on its own without me being involved. That's the beauty of a free market.

And you might be right about not being able to control the trend. But that just increases my thoughts on not caring.

Originally Posted by Westlo

So if something you liked sold 80k or 1k you wouldn't give a shit? You wouldn't care that a sequel is more than likely on the way or has no chance of getting off the ground? You wouldn't care if your fav director just put out a commericail failure which means he wouldn't have a chance to direct again (like say Yamakan lol) or that another one of your fav directors (Hosada da gawd) just made a smash hit movie? You wouldn't care if someones directorial debut was stunning but he won't get another chance because of low sales? You wouldn't care if a long running light novel/manga you loved had a one cour adaptation which was a sales flop? Meaning the best of the series will never get animated? (or lets say most of it isn't translated and your best bet to see the end was multiple anime sequels?)

Lol, would you like me to rephrase my post to say I give 0.15 fucks? Here: "The subject of hand does contain trace amounts of concerns, but there are insufficient fucks to give a damn". Semantics debates are so cool!

Sure it's nice if a show I like sells well, but whether it sells 4k or 40k has no bearing on how I view the anime. I respect their business practices, but that's it.

Also, I expanded my justification a few posts down. If you had spent less time attempting to be witty and reading the thread, you might have seen it.

Oh, and the best material isn't getting animated anyways. So oh well. Whatever best means.

[Nightbat®]

Originally Posted by Westlo

So if something you liked sold 80k or 1k you wouldn't give a shit? You wouldn't care that a sequel is more than likely on the way or has no chance of getting off the ground? You wouldn't care if your fav director just put out a commericail failure which means he wouldn't have a chance to direct again (like say Yamakan lol) or that another one of your fav directors (Hosada da gawd) just made a smash hit movie? You wouldn't care if someones directorial debut was stunning but he won't get another chance because of low sales? You wouldn't care if a long running light novel/manga you loved had a one cour adaptation which was a sales flop? Meaning the best of the series will never get animated? (or lets say most of it isn't translated and your best bet to see the end was multiple anime sequels?)

"too bad!"

Really, what are you gonna be watching then?
Series that most definitely will become a hit? is that the measure for which you are
prepared to put time in watching an anime?

"Oh that series may be awesome, but since the director didn't have a hitseries previous before this, I'm not gonna watch i because there won't be a sequel"

"No, I'm not gonna watch it, not enough people are enthusiastic about it"

"This series doesn't sell as much merchandise as Gundam, so I'll pass"

Doesn't your own personal preference surpass public opinion/overall succes?

So when a series isn't succesfull and gets dropped, or not continued or the director has to find other things to do
what are you prepared to do about it? deny its existance, or consider it a case of "too bad!" and remember the fun it gave you?

(this all in the context of having sales/popularity being even a remote influence in how you go about watching)

[OceanBlue]

Originally Posted by Westlo

You wouldn't care if your fav director just put out a commericail failure which means he wouldn't have a chance to direct again (like say Yamakan lol)

Doesn't stop Yuasa .

But yeah, I agree that it's hard not to care at all. I do see why people would care very little though. I think it's hard to say that sales matter because that's associated with "Sales determine which anime are good and bad," due to the nature of the thread. I'm always interested in knowing what people like and why they like something, so sales matter to me probably more than the average person. I can't say I'm emotionally invested in them though.