(L) Girls und Panzer

[arkhangelsk]

Actually, the German is fine for me because I can actually hear almost all the Japanese. I'll almost forgive them for their gaffs if they translated everything KMM said into German, just for the amusement value.

[tomexe]

So. Which school do you think is going to be closed down now instead of Oarai? Could it be- Anzio?
Would members of the closed school have to migrate to Oarai to finish their high school education?

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by tomexe

So. Which school do you think is going to be closed down now instead of Oarai? Could it be- Anzio?
Would members of the closed school have to migrate to Oarai to finish their high school education?

With luck no one will have to be. Oarai should receive awards and sponsorships from the Senshado Association and possibly other interested parties specifically to help keep them open and to prepare the team for future tournaments. The revival of school spirit may also have a positive impact in bringing outside money into the school. Thus, they shouldn't have to take funds from any of the other schools to keep Oarai open. That would just be wrong: it would horribly crush the spirits of the girls after everything they've just worked so hard for.

[Ithekro]

The reason the school was going to be closed was high cost and one assumes a lack of attendance (at least in the United States, attendance is what gets the school its tax dollars, thus Mako would be costing them money for not showing up to class).

With the amount of attention given to Ooarai and possible prize money (unknown there) they will get more people attending and thus the education department can afford to keep the ship and school running.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by tomexe

So. Which school do you think is going to be closed down now instead of Oarai? Could it be- Anzio?
Would members of the closed school have to migrate to Oarai to finish their high school education?

My personal bet, as always, is KMM. According to OVA3, they apparently have an Armor Department. Their Tankery elective is also likely the most costly (Saunders may have the bigger tank fleet, but they are relatively economic Shermans - I bet KMM's luxury tank fleet costs more to buy and run).

Besides, for being supposedly the German representative school, KMM is not very German. Pravda at leasts educates its students until they can sing in Russian while driving tanks, and I presume Saunders & St. Glorianna can speak English. KMM says Guderian's quote in Japanese. Their Tankery department neither depicts disciplined Germanic efficiency (one German stereotype) or any real execution of Auftragstaktik (another German trait).

With their showing in the past two years ... if the cost cutting blades don't start hitting them, there's no justice in the world.

[Sumeragi]

Delusions are just that, delusions.


Basically, with sponsors likely to come up, there is no need for any of the schools to close, unless there are elements we don't know of.


BTW, don't throw around terms without knowing what the hell it means: Führen mit Auftrag as people think it to be was never applied within Panzertruppe, since armored warfare relied more on mass coordination than leadership.

[arkhangelsk]

A few sponsors might just keep an ordinary school running instead of closing down. Unfortunately, we are talking 30,000 people city ships here with their own mini-economies, families and attachments.

They probably didn't decide to close one because of a minor shortfall in cash. How many sponsors will it realistically take to keep that running?

[Sumeragi]

And? You think that the other schools don't have enough sponsors/funding so they can be threatened with closure? You're basically thinking in a bubble, thinking all schools are in the same situation as Ooarai when there is no indication of such.

[Random Wanderer]

I have to agree with Sumeragi on this one. I think the other schools have enough funding of their own that they aren't going to suffer.

Putting aside any logical reasons for it, there is a very important dramatic one: if another school had to close because the Board of Education or whatever it's called took their funding and used it to keep Oarai open, it would completely undermine the moral of the victory that the girls just won, and it would devestate them emotionally. That isn't the kind of story the creators of this series are trying to tell. They aren't going to have the girls' victory turn out to be a bad thing like that. That's not the way they do things.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

And? You think that the other schools don't have enough sponsors/funding so they can be threatened with closure? You're basically thinking in a bubble, thinking all schools are in the same situation as Ooarai when there is no indication of such.

We have no evidence that they HAVE sponsors either, and given the probable cost of a schoolship, it is quite unlikely any reasonable sponsors will be more than a drop in the bucket. Let's not insist on hypothesizing things not in evidence.

Though it is quite likely Oarai is in a vulnerable spot, both because it hasn't exactly been on the news as because it has no identity. For example, shutting down St. Glorianna, regardless of the economic factors, may be considered a slap to Britain.

Thus, now that Oarai isn't going down, either we assume no schools go down, or there is going to have to be another head on the plate. Since I don't think sponsors can make much difference, and I don't think they wanted to cut Oarai down just for laughs, I conclude there is likely a real and significant cash flow problem that can ultimately only be resolved by shutting at least one school down.

And from what we know, after Oarai, KMM is high on the list for a cut for the reasons I stated - it seems high cost and it doesn't have a strong national identity (thus less foreign policy implications in taking it down) compared to the other national-theme schools. Winning in Senshado (performance) might have been the factor holding it up, but now that they've lost for two years to inferior forces, and in such an embarassing manner this year, if any one school is hinted for a takedown it is KMM. KMM's very size also makes it vulnerable - the outroar will be large but after cutting it they won't have to cut another for a long time. If they snuff the French submarine, they'll just run out of money again and have to repeat the controversial process in a year or two.

An alternate would be Chi-Ha Tan school, which is apparently Japanese. But if we go by their tank fleet, they aren't quite as pampered and thus probably not as high cost. And then we are running out of candidates with known risk factors.

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

Putting aside any logical reasons for it, there is a very important dramatic one: if another school had to close because the Board of Education or whatever it's called took their funding and used it to keep Oarai open, it would completely undermine the moral of the victory that the girls just won, and it would devestate them emotionally. That isn't the kind of story the creators of this series are trying to tell. They aren't going to have the girls' victory turn out to be a bad thing like that. That's not the way they do things.

Well, maybe, but I think I'm sticking to tomexe's intent by giving my best guess as to which school should shut down. Answering "None" seems a bit of a wimp-out to me, and also unrealistic given the amount of thought that must have gone into shutting down a 30,000-man city. Bureaucrats just don't pull moves like that unless they have to - which implies a BIG problem.

I don't know if it is "bad" that KMM goes down. It is just ... realistic IMO. Besides, KMM doesn't do itself in favors in getting my sympathy with that luxury tank fleet. Money is clearly being mis-allocated here. Imagine how much more fun the Tankery matches will be if the KMM tanks are parceled out to all the other teams, so they don't have to fight with only tankettes, Chi-Ha and Polish 7TP tanks! That one Maus probably cost enough to give one of the poorer schools a lineup of Shermans...

Maybe if KMM is really the uber team, a clear cut more skilful than all the others, then this might almost be justified. But now if I'm a Japanese taxpayer, I'll feel like my tax dollars are being wasted.

[Sumeragi]

Stupidity is at an all-high it seems.....


Rule One of Bureaucrats: Never touch anything unless you have to or ordered by the superiors. If it turns out you don't have to, then don't make up Plan B unless it's absolutely necessary.


We clearly have seen that Ooarai is the only school that had no special characteristics standing out. All other schools had at least something to show for themselves (having a clear theme), but what about Ooarai? It's just a plain school connected to a small town which in our reality has only nuclear research reactors worth mentioning (aside from sweet potatoes and angelfish). It's not worth investing even in the eyes of the bureaucrats, which was why it was on the chopping block in the first place. Bureaucrats even thinking of shutting down other schools which had clear characteristics is in itself a delusion without any basis in reality, or outside information that the Japanese government is in such dire depths it needed to shut down at least one school.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

Stupidity is at an all-high it seems.....

Rule One of Bureaucrats: Never touch anything unless you have to. If it turns out you don't have to, then don't make up Plan B unless it's absolutely necessary.

I actually agree with most of what you say. However, Oarai, while one of the smallest, is still one of a very limited number of schoolships - its relative value is still much higher than the real Oarai Prefectural High.

As for the characteristics part, I agree, and that's why KMM is high on the list - it is supposed to be the German school, but even Guderian quotations are given in Japanese. So it is weak on the national characteristics scale. It might be renowned for the tank fleet, but over the past two years this has turned into a joke, so a positive now turns into a negative.

As for whether Plan B is necessary, you seem to think that they cut Oarai almost for laughs. In that case you are right they won't have to come up with a Plan B. However, due to the first part of Rule One as you say, I conclude the problem is real and serious, not just a "We still could but just won't" problem, so they have to touch something. If they don't touch A, they have to touch B. Which leaves trying to figure out what B is.

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

outside information that the Japanese government is in such dire depths it needed to shut down at least one school.

How deeply stuck do you think the real Japanese government would need to get before it suddenly announces the closing of a 30,000 man city? Worse, the city is high profile it is one of only as few as 16 floating on the waves. I'm surprised our GuP bureaucrats even demonstrated the nerve they did...

[Sumeragi]

Nope, the problem is that you're taking the wrong approach to this (never mind the superficiality of your reasons). Here's the mindset of the Bureaucrat as applied to the situation:

1. We seem to be short of bit of money. What's the easiest way to cut costs or raise money without making much of a political mess?
2. It's easiest if we drop one of the largest projects. However, we need to avoid touching the pork barrels.
3. The Ooarai ship is certainly something we can take care of. It's as plain as can be, with no real political capital being wasted if we write it off. Who will defend that ship, when it just exists for the sake of existing?

[Ithekro]

A bureaucrat would see a school that is getting less and less attendance and no real draw to it as a waste of money. Regardless if the governement is even short on money. Running a city-ship is expensive, so if one isn't going so well, might as well cut it altogether. The remaining Japanese students will filter to the other schools. Ooarai doesn't need to be closed, just it will save money if closed because it isn't a popular school anyway.

A bureaucrat that saves money tends to get a raise, even if the long term saving hurts the company or government. This happens in school districts all the time. A new principle reorginizes the school into trimesters instead of semesters. "brilliant, you get a raise". The following year, the school goes to the quarter system to try something else. "wow, you really make things happen. Here have a raise." The next year the guy gets a better offer at a better school and moves on. The next guy comes in and changes every thing to leave his own mark on the school.....

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

Nope, the problem is that you're taking the wrong approach to this (never mind the superficiality of your reasons). Here's the mindset of the Bureaucrat as applied to the situation:

1. We seem to be short of bit of money. What's the easiest way to cut costs or raise money without making much of a political mess?
2. It's easiest if we drop one of the largest projects. However, we need to avoid touching the pork barrels.
3. The Ooarai ship is certainly something we can take care of. It's as plain as can be, with no real political capital being wasted if we write it off. Who will defend that ship, when it just exists for the sake of existing?

You seem to be working very hard to denigrate Oarai's value and trying to raise KMM's value by designating it a pork barrel.

1) Thus, if they are really just "short of a bit of money", they'll just tell all schools to tighten their belts an inch rather than make the politically messy decision to close a 30,000 man city.

3) Yes, of course, if Oarai actually has only the value a regular high school has, its keeping or disbanding won't affect any other schools. But it is still a city of 30,000 people, and is one of as few as 16 school ships. The political backblast from closing would be smaller, but not small.

Thus IMHO 1&3 just don't apply to this situation, and the second half of #2 is just your speculation to raise KMM's value. Which leaves #2, dropping a large project (read: KMM)

Originally Posted by Ithekro

A bureaucrat would see a school that is getting less and less attendance and no real draw to it as a waste of money. Regardless if the governement is even short on money. Running a city-ship is expensive, so if one isn't going so well, might as well cut it altogether. The remaining Japanese students will filter to the other schools. Ooarai doesn't need to be closed, just it will save money if closed because it isn't a popular school anyway.

Well, it Oarai is an ordinarily sized school, one of thousands in the country, I'll agree with what you say. But Oarai isn't only a school, it is also a city. Do you see the bureaucracy being able to easily shut down an entire city even if it is not very profitable and its population is declining?

Heck, there are some little island settlements like Yonakuni in Japan who suffers from continuously declining population and a population which is less than 1/15th of Oarai's. By your logic, Yonakuni would have been evacuated by some bureaucrat a long time ago. And there is no comparison between RL Yonaguni and GuP Oarai's relative importance.

[Sumeragi]

Keep on with your delusions without knowledge of Japanese politics. Closing down a school like Ooarai is the least politically costly option possible.

[willx]

You guys are all silly ducks. Anyways, in a void of information, the assumption over a lack of an assumption requires the greater burden of proof. Based on what we know right now .. KMM isn't going anywhere.

Ark -- you've generally been relatively pleasant, but I'd walk the line carefully about suggesting anyone else being biased .. (pot meet kettle)

EDIT: For completeness, I agree with Random Wanderer, aside from the flashback sidebar .. this series is clearly not serious at all.

[Myssa Rei]

Nope, I don't see any of the other schools being in trouble after this. As many MANY others have pointed out, Ooarai was only singled out because of the fact that it literally had nothing going for it, not even a theme. Even the heckled Chiha-tan had a theme to it.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by willx

You guys are all silly ducks. Anyways, in a void of information, the assumption over a lack of an assumption requires the greater burden of proof. Based on what we know right now .. KMM isn't going anywhere.

Ark -- you've generally been relatively pleasant, but I'd walk the line carefully about suggesting anyone else being biased .. (pot meet kettle)

I don't think I have been particularly secretive about my distaste of KMM. I don't hate them. I don't think I "momentarily" despise them as a whole. I'll even grant Erika had some kind of epiphany in those last minutes of the fight and thus her attitude to Miho reached an all time best post-fight - she was almost friendly when she said "We'll win next year".

But I do think they've been overly pampered and not earning it. So if no schoolship has to shutdown I'm not really unhappy but I'm not shedding tears for them if they do and if some schoolship has to die KMM's top of my list - or do you have another candidate?

IMHO, the problem is that most other debaters are using "school" dynamics when thinking of Oarai's would-be shutdown, which does make it easy to shut it down for trivial reasons (and by extension, probable that Oarai can be saved without affecting anything else). I think of them as a city as well (they even make a OVA3 just to drum that into our skulls), and a showcase city (one of 16) at that. Which makes shutting it down rather hard (thus, if they shut it down, the chances of it being just saved without hurting anything else much less probable).

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

Keep on with your delusions without knowledge of Japanese politics. Closing down a school like Ooarai is the least politically costly option possible.

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

Japan is not above shutting down an entire city through annexation if it serves no purpose. That's where your entire line of logic falls apart.

First you tell me that closing down Oarai would be virtually politically free. Now it is just the "least politically costly" and that they are "not above" (which means they can do it) doing it.

I can attack these tautological claims but quite frankly you are already conceding a lot.

[Sumeragi]

Japan is not above shutting down an entire city through annexation if it serves no purpose. That's where your entire line of logic falls apart.