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Old 2012-05-09, 08:26   Link #1341
Duo Maxwell
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Honestly I don't even understand how could people think this is a dumbed down version of Diablo II, when almost everything is an improvement.

Don't tell me because it's a beta compare to a full game?
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Old 2012-05-09, 09:09   Link #1342
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The skillsystem in Diablo II was by far the most important aspect of the game, in my opinion. It is the sole reason why I spent countless hours trying to come up with new and interesting ways to play the game. In Diablo III, you have no choice whatsoever in what skills you learn. It is a system much more comparable to Guild Wars actually, where you have a number of skills from which you have to pick half a dozen at a time. You could argue that that's essentially the same thing, but it is not. How many points you spent on a skill, when you picked it up in the first place and the fact that you could not reinvest you points up until 2010, where a system to allow just that was introduced, made the skill system more important, strategic and investing. Diablo III does not come close from what I have seen, heard and experienced, and this is pretty much the only reason why I feel underwhelmed. Unlocking specific skills in a certain order was the reason why I've played D2 for so long. D3 doesn't offer the same experience. They had the greatest leveling system of all time and changed it for this . . .

Also, there are only five classes, but I am sure that the game will expanded upon in that regard. Actually, what I forgot to mention in my previous post was the real money auction house, which sounds really intriguing to me. I think that's one of the greatest introductions to gaming in recent history. Still, the skill system alone ruins it for me.
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Old 2012-05-09, 09:43   Link #1343
Mahou
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Not that you need much of a strategic approach to clear the game. Sure you could totally fail to skill your character (happened more than once pre-guides), but later on you didn't see much talent tree variety on battle.net anyways from my experience. But, I agree that there were a few fun skill builds à la lighting nova-sorceress, amok barbarian or LoD's trap assassine.
And as for the leveling? It's hack and slash. At one point you either visisted the Act 4 or 5 in hell or organized cow level runs to level up.
The "challege" was in getting the drops you wanted especially since after the great dupe wave stone of jordans became the trade currency of choice for most stuff.
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Old 2012-05-09, 09:52   Link #1344
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Yes, even if builds weren't as "viable" as others, they were still fun to figure out. I once found that barbarian helmet with the werewolf skill attached to it and almost immediately started an entirely new barbarian for it, which focused heavily on battle shouts to increase stats even further. That's just one example of how flexible the system was.

As for challenge, I wasn't really talking about that at all. Strategy was not necessary to complete the game, but it was still there for you to utilize. Diablo III doesn't offer it to the same extent. At least that's the way it looks now, and that's my whole point. However, as I said, I will get the game at some point. It's just that I feel too underwhelmed to buy it on day one.
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Old 2012-05-09, 10:45   Link #1345
jedinat
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Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
Unlocking specific skills in a certain order was the reason why I've played D2 for so long. D3 doesn't offer the same experience. They had the greatest leveling system of all time and changed it for this . . .

Yes, even if builds weren't as "viable" as others, they were still fun to figure out. I once found that barbarian helmet with the werewolf skill attached to it and almost immediately started an entirely new barbarian for it, which focused heavily on battle shouts to increase stats even further. That's just one example of how flexible the system was.
Wow, this point of view really boggles my mind... Diablo 3 simply cuts out the pointless grind you had to go through for that helmet, and you're upset? How was D2 being flexible in that instance, lol? Unlocking minor incremental skill damage increases was what made D2 for you? Leveling skills you weren't using for synergies? Diablo 3 is letting people experiment with a much wider range of skills and combinations without punishing the player. You say builds for you were fun to figure out; that's what D3 is going to be ALL ABOUT, except it's not going exclude the 99% of players who didn't have fun wasting their time trying out blind builds.
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Old 2012-05-09, 10:53   Link #1346
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Originally Posted by jedinat View Post
Unlocking minor incremental skill damage increases was what made D2 for you? Leveling skills you weren't using for synergies?
That's pretty much it.
Also D3 does not only cut out the "pointless" grind I had to go through, it also cuts out a lot of options to skill that werebarian.
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:00   Link #1347
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That's pretty much it.
Also D3 does not only cut out the "pointless" grind I had to go through, it also cuts out a lot of options to skill that werebarian.
What options?
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:05   Link #1348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedinat View Post
What options?
What battle shouts you want, how strong each of them should be, what synergies you are going to use for them, what shouts you want to strengthen solely through item bonuses.
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:05   Link #1349
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Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
That's pretty much it.
Also D3 does not only cut out the "pointless" grind I had to go through, it also cuts out a lot of options to skill that werebarian.
I am not sure I understand this part, unless you are talking about attributes.

For skills, D3 has skills, but you can reset them as you also can on the Diablo 2 ladder through that woman in the Rogue Camp (recent change I think).

Attributes are about the only thing D3 truly cut out imo. Then again, all one did was get the necessary strength and dexterity and dump the rest into vitality. There was no reason to deviate in any other way.


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What battle shouts you want, how strong each of them should be, what synergies you are going to use for them, what shouts you want to strengthen solely through item bonuses.
True, but runes have taken that role to an extent. You can change the effect, the strength, the duration, and even the function for every spell.

Ultimately both D2 and D3 had pros and cons to their systems. I totally disagree with the versus wars that the two systems have been dragged into.
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:07   Link #1350
Flying Dagger
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Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
It's so weird. Diablo III is comming out, and I am not even excited. I love D2 to death, but all the media around D3 so far has just disappointed me. And when I tried the game out myself during the beta weekend, my expectations were met exactly. It's basically a streamlined and dumbed down version of Diablo II. I especially dislike the new skillsystem. Oh well, I will probably get it at some point, just because it's Diablo, but right now, I honestly could barely care less. The only thing holding up my hope are the boss battles. But it looks like Titan Quest will remain the best alternative to Diablo II.
I felt the same way when I first got my hands onto the beta a few months ago. Ever since then though, I have resisted the urge to fire up the beta again to re-explore the world and test the new changes. This abstinence rebuilt my hype for the game, and I get more excited when I think that I will once again reunite with a lot of my old friends from WoW and starcraft.
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:10   Link #1351
jedinat
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Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
What battle shouts you want, how strong each of them should be, what synergies you are going to use for them, what shouts you want to strengthen solely through item bonuses.
Yeah, now they're all good; they took out the option for them to be poorly leveled, lol... there is still going to be +skill affixes on equipment (+% I assume).


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Originally Posted by Nixl View Post
Attributes are about the only thing D3 truly cut out imo. Then again, all one did was get the necessary strength and dexterity and dump the rest into vitality. There was no reason to deviate in any other way.
And you'll still be able to improve attributes using gems...
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:13   Link #1352
Nixl
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Lol, I did not know how I forgot about gems.

D2 looked customizable on paper, but choosing suboptimal builds going into Nightmare and Hell modes was just stupid. I can see how a lot of people had fun with mixing and matching, but there is no reason to really gimp yourself for it, especially when playing with attributes.
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:16   Link #1353
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Originally Posted by Nixl View Post
Lol, I did not know how I forgot about gems.

D2 looked customizable on paper, but choosing suboptimal builds going into Nightmare and Hell modes was just stupid. I can see how a lot of people had fun with mixing and matching, but there is no reason to really gimp yourself for it, especially when playing with attributes.
The fun you mentioned should be reason enough, shouldn't it? A sorceress completely specced on ice was useless in hell, but it was just so much fun to cast Blizzard and walk in circles all the time.
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:17   Link #1354
jedinat
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The fun you mentioned should be reason enough, shouldn't it? A sorceress completely specced on ice was useless in hell, but it was just so much fun to cast Blizzard and walk in circles all the time.
And now people can play with fun builds ALL THE TIME, without worrying about large consequences...
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:18   Link #1355
Duo Maxwell
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They had the greatest leveling system of all time and changed it for this . . .
No no no. It's like saying WoW has the greatest leveling system of all time.

The only reason Diablo 2 system worked because of the limited internet at that time, where there is no cookie cutter build that will be posted 1 week after the game is released, which each and everyone will follow. Trial and error doesn't work in the current world, and good way to let everyone try out their various build is let them freely change their skill sets to find out which works best for them. Furthermore, I know I will spend a lot of time playing Diablo 3, but that doesn't mean I have 12 hours a day to try and rebuild my character from scratch. Until you reach Hell, you don't know your build is viable or not.

And everything you mentioned in D2, you can do in D3, with less work. Well, unless you love to grind.
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:24   Link #1356
Nixl
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The fun you mentioned should be reason enough, shouldn't it? A sorceress completely specced on ice was useless in hell, but it was just so much fun to cast Blizzard and walk in circles all the time.
My issue with that is, until recently if you chose the suboptimal class or suboptimal spec/attribute layout you were heavily punished and there was virtually no way to fix it. Any choice and customization outside of the optimal build was penalized. I cannot say the beauty of the D2 system was customization, when you either did it the right way or not at all.

Furthermore, I would argue most people played Diablo 2 to kill monsters, play with friends, and gain fun loot, not wrestle with a 2% min/max system. There is a reason optimal builds were created.

Both D2 and D3 have pros and cons and so I do not think one is inherently worse than the other.
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:27   Link #1357
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And now people can play with fun builds ALL THE TIME, without worrying about large consequences...
What consequences are you talking about? The 2010 patch allowed D2 characters to respecc their skill points, it took more effort and time to do so, but that made decisions all the more important. Also, I don't think that D3's system will allow for quite as many different builds as D2's. 110 points to invest into whatever you want is just hard to beat.

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Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell View Post
No no no. It's like saying WoW has the greatest leveling system of all time.
Except for the fact that WoW has a different leveling system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixl
not wrestle with a 2% min/max system.
Well, that's why I played it.
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:34   Link #1358
Nixl
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That is why optimal builds existed. All one had to do was look on the internet to see what to do. How does one support customization with people running around with virtually the same builds for PVE and PVP. It just did not work out that well when you have people feeding others the best build.


It is true that there was about 110 point to min/max with, but you either optimized in the right way or the wrong. Any customization outside of optimized builds were just silly. D2 did have a lot of optimization, but I simply do not think it was a game of customization in the long run.
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:45   Link #1359
jedinat
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What consequences are you talking about? The 2010 patch allowed D2 characters to respecc their skill points, it took more effort and time to do so, but that made decisions all the more important.
Well I last played before 2010. They originally had it so you needed to go back to town to respecc in D3, but eventually decided this was just wasting a players time and are now using cooldowns and the Nephalem Valor buff to regulate bad gameplay practices (changing skill load out for individual encounters, etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
Also, I don't think that D3's system will allow for quite as many different builds as D2's. 110 points to invest into whatever you want is just hard to beat.
http://i.imgur.com/Rt3nq.jpg

Even including the D2's incremental points (110?) Diablo 3 has more skills and skill runes and passives.
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:45   Link #1360
Flying Dagger
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Wrt the skill/state system, I agree with D3's approach.

In D2 you are stuck with your build. A hammerdin in D2 would be spamming hammers or holy bolts in all situations: I really do not find it all that fun.

In D3 you have to use the right skillset at the right time. A barbarian will not longer just mindlessly hold that whirlwind button as other skills might be better suited in that particular dungeon.

As for stat allocation: pretty much you just put enough str to wear stuff, maybe some dex to block, and the rest goes into vitality. There really isnt much choices there...
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