2012-05-19, 13:02 | Link #101 |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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If I could change how people use words, I think this would be the best solution:
1. Have the Shonen Genre labelled "Battle manga". When people refer to Shonen as a genre, they always use it to refer to manga that surrounds battling (even if those battles involve something non-violent like cooking...). It is certainly a distinct enough genre to merit a label. It shouldn't be shoehorned into "action", as action can mean a lot of other things. 2. Relabel Shonen, Shojo, Seinen and Josei to their English equivalents, IE Boys, Girls, Young Men and Young Women. There's no reason that we have to use these japanese terms when perfectly serviceable english equivalents exist. 3. When it comes to labelling manga genres, take the lead from the Japanese manga community. Find a Japanese equivalent of ANN, or Baka-updates (they must exist...) and copy their definitions, and their genres, albeit english translations. Keep loanwords to a minimum (for instance, I doubt you can easily find an english term that quite corresponds to Yaoi). Unfortunately, this is a matter of an entire community, and it's very hard for us to pass a rule and change people's usage. People will use what makes most sense to them. The best we can do is educate, EG make all those Naruto Fans aware that Shonen includes a lot more then ninjas beating each other up, etc. |
2012-05-19, 14:18 | Link #102 |
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A minor detail, but shojo (処女) means virgin, not girl... that would be shoujo or shōjo (少女). Also shonen (初年) is an adverb refering to the first few years of an era. It's shounen or shōnen (少年) for boys
Yaoi is literally an abreviation for boring, pointless, and other stuff that I can not remember, but translating it as male homo-sexual-ity/-s covers clearly what it implies... always IMHO |
2012-05-19, 17:21 | Link #103 | ||||||
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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The second principle you mentioned is one I'm less inclined to agree with. Because word meanings evolve even if the words have yet to meet obscurity. You see it all the time. You have a word belonging to a larger group, then a smaller group takes that same word and changes the meaning to adapt to their context. Now, if the rule you laid out was limited to a single context, then it would work out. If the first one is verified by popular opinion, then we just go back to large numbers (popularity) as being what determines term usage. Quote:
However, I'm more concerned with this equation: Lack of unity in shared representations within the community = Less efficient communication As such, I say that simply adhering to popular usage is a better move. Quote:
For example, unity of representations takes a higher priority over precision of meaning from my perspective, but I don't at all claim it to be "objective". Quote:
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Another assumption here is that there isn't already a sharp division within the anime community between the Japanese fans and English-speaking fans. As far as I know, there is very little homogeneity between the two groups. So once again, I ask why we should reconfigure our language use to cater to a group we hardly interact with? And obviously, if you happen to communicate with a person from that other group, it's only natural that you should be aware of how they use their terms. For example, you don't speak straight English when you talk to a local in Japan. It's the same thing. No miscommunication will occur if you know how to discern what is appropriate according to context. Quote:
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Last edited by Qilin; 2012-05-19 at 17:33. |
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2012-05-19, 18:26 | Link #104 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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Exactly because the definition of shounen has been reduced incorrectly to a subset (the action battle subset) - instead either of "titles for boys" or "action battle stories". That leaves the entirety of the rest of shounen adrift to be mislabeled by people who are misusing the word "shounen". If the only "pie" I know is apple pie and I encounter a peach pie, I'm going to put it over in some other category in some arm-waving manner as those store employees did.
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2012-05-19, 19:27 | Link #105 | |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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That's why we write Tokyo, and not Tōkyō or Toukyou. According to wikipedia, all 3 count for shonen, and the same goes for shojo |
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2012-05-19, 20:10 | Link #106 |
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... and that's an excellent way to confuse more people... especially the shojo/shoujo, until I hit the kanji in a manga I realized how many times I had misinterpreted it.
Anyway, wikipedia aside (which is not always correct), the two above are the commonly accepted transliteration systems for long vowels in japanese. Now of course people unfamiliar with the language, culture, etc. are free to do as they please, but that does not change the fact that they are confusing others, which was the point of the discussion (in the last few pages at least) PS: and indeed, I am writing toukyou for my auto-corrector to remind me that germanic language users misspell it |
2012-05-19, 20:15 | Link #107 | |
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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The way I see it, all this confusion can be avoided by simply being aware of the contexts by which both usages are appropriate. Rather than advocate absolute uniformity of terms, I think it's much more practical to simply distinguish different contexts from one another. Unlike the issue with "slice of life" the alternate definitions of the term take place in entirely different contexts. Why would you interpret "shounen" to mean the genre when the discussion is clearly about demographics? Likewise, why would you interpret it to mean a demographic when the conversation is referring to genres? Just about every language I know has a handful of redundant terms, but hardly any confusion occurs because people know how to distinguish between contexts of usage.
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2012-05-19, 20:47 | Link #108 | |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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Also, in English, they're homophones anyway. English doesn't really distinguish between long and short vowels, they're considered homophones. Which is why it means the same thing to write shoujo, or Shojo. Long and short is usually more a result of emphasis. In fact, almost all Japanese loanwords into english are mispronounced compared to Japanese. For instance, Anime, and Manga are pronounced Aw-nime, and maw-nga in the United States. In Britain and Ireland, it's the more correct Ahnime and mah-nga, and both sides of the atlantic make the mistake of using the ng sound instead the seperate n and g sounds (the ng sound doesn't exist in japanese). And that goes for Shojo and Shonen to. In Ireland it's pronounced "Show-nen" when it should be "shou-nen". So quibling over long and short vowels is pretty pointless, when the degree of innaccuracy with which they're rendered by the common person is always much higher. This difference is only relevant if you're actually trying to speak Japanese, but for regular english usage is irrelevant. In writing it's also irrelevant, because the standard Japanese romanization doesn't use ou or ō, but oo (which of course is very different in English, hence the use of o or ou for the loanword). However compared to Japanese mangling of English loanwords, this stuff is pretty mild, to be honest. So I see nothing wrong with using whichever spelling or pronounciation is right, so long as it's generally recognisable in English. |
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2012-05-20, 00:03 | Link #109 | ||
Banned
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In any case, my point is that writing and pronunciation from a reader without knowledge of the original language and/or term will be most likely wrong, as you also point out, so why not at least use a writing that will be understood by those familiar, without having to resort in thinking in both languages... that is the objective of transliteration to begin with... for pronunciation guidelines there is the IPA system, which far more comprehensive than any writing system based on linguistic evolution. Quote:
とっり torri -> short pause between to and ti とり tori -> normally as one word とおり toori -> after to add ori, unless your used to it sounds like the later two とうり touri -> long "o" とーり to-ri -> same as above to my knowledge Similar is the issue with ん (n) when preceding なねぬにの (na-ne-nu-ni-no), it's bloody hard to tell the difference. But in romanization an apostrophe is usually added. There I am 100% with you... it's almost at the level of abuse greek gets in all germanic languages. |
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2012-05-20, 05:36 | Link #110 | |
Me at work
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And this isn't me saying it's something that might happen,it's already happened to me at a few manga stores,I go in looking for mangas like k-on,yotsuba& or azumanga daioh and I have to look for in the shoujo part of the store. Another exemple is that about a week ago someone wrote on this forum "Toradora is more of a romentic comedy than a shonen".
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2012-05-20, 06:17 | Link #112 | |||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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Also even if an english speaker can pronounce a word correctly, that doesn't mean they should. When a word gets adapted into a loanword, the sounds that sound awkward in their accent/language get replaced with close, but slightly different sounds. That's why Shounen becomes "Shownen". Shounen sounds awkward and weird in english. The Japanese "ou" sound is just considered a variant of aw or ooh. Likewise, I'm sure when english words get loaned into greek, their pronounciation gets changed slightly to a form that might seem functionally identical to a Greek, but different to an Englishman. It's impossible to import a word and preserve all of their original pronounciations. Given the variation between dialects and accents alone it's not surprising. Heck, between the north and south of just my own city words are pronounced differently enough that a foreigner might think they're different words. For instance the th becomes a t (thing-> ting, three-> tree[the same as the plant!]). If you go to England, it's even worse, as all the rs at the end of words get dropped (car becomes cah)! Also, it's important to bear in mind, that those words are extremely close together, it's entirely possible that in certain Japanese regional accents, those words are not distinguishable. Certainly an english speaker, using those words in an english conversation, would pronounce them all the same way. If they switched to Japanese, they'd pronounce them correctly (depending on the quality of their accent). [quote] In any case, my point is that writing and pronunciation from a reader without knowledge of the original language and/or term will be most likely wrong, as you also point out, so why not at least use a writing that will be understood by those familiar, without having to resort in thinking in both languages... that is the objective of transliteration to begin with... for pronunciation guidelines there is the IPA system, which far more comprehensive than any writing system based on linguistic evolution. [quote] There are lots of homophones in almost all languages, people have little trouble distinguishing them (in writing or otherwise), because you can tell based on context. You can tell that we're not talking about virgins, or the beginning of an era, based on the context of the thread. Quote:
The problem with Shounen, as a romanization, is that it fails to distinguish between "Sho-u-nen" (3 syllables) and "Shou-nen" (2 syllables). That's why the accented version is used (it eliminated the confusion), however, in most english writing, the accent gets removed, so it becomes "shonen", much like Tōkyō becomes Tokyo. The Japanese Kana system does not have a perfect correspondence with the spoken language, there are many irregularities, like the one above. Because pronounciation changes over time (and location...), but writing doesn't, these problems are inevitable. Quote:
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2012-05-20, 08:14 | Link #113 | |||||
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sho-ne-n sho-n-e-n vs sho-u-ne-n sho-u-n-e-n and that's by ignoring the pause (っ) and dash (ー) Quote:
The best is the german (from the ones that I know in some extent), but there is a serious issue of divergance between the official language and everyday as well as dialects. Quote:
PS: By the way, I don't want to sound authoritative or anything, it's just that I am using often foreign languages (both human but mainly "machine" ones), and always found it interesting more interesting their schematics rather than practical applications, despite ending up "relying" professionally on the later |
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2012-05-20, 09:10 | Link #114 |
Disabled By Request
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Nintensalem
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I think most of us missed the whole point on what the OP has been asking for. From what I can understand from his rant, wouldn't be annoying if you bought something that says "for boys" and yet inside it has lots of hot topless bishies which supposed to be in shoujo magazines instead. I really hate that to when it happens.
If I flip the coin, there's plenty of "shoujo" mangas which had graphic nudity, mostly female ones although not as "detailed" as any male-oriented ones(read: hentai). |
2012-05-20, 10:13 | Link #115 | ||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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[QUOTE=Malkuth;4168363]But for all the reasons you mentioned, at least from my perspective (living abroad for almost a decade and using 90% of his time communicating in several foreign languages) it is more valuable to separate pronunciation from the the writing system in order to make all these distinction apparent at least to those who have a background, since everyone else is bound to be mistaken in one way or another. This approach at least minimizes the confusion when a context is established and the speakers are aware of each others' background
That's a big problem I had when I begun learning japanese, since there were different somewhat "homebrew" transliteration systems targeting specific countries, and ignoring the original language. Same for german, english and french. It might yield quick benefits for those who want to half-learn a languge by picking up a handful of effective sentences for showing off or vacation, but ignores the cultural background, the mechanics, and the essence of the language. [quote] Of course, but we're not actually referring to the original word, but rather to an english borrowing of it. If this were to be a "how to speak japanese thread" I might agree with you, but this is isn't, instead we're referring to the english version of the japanese word, which can use either of the 3 spelling, because in English, all 3 can be read that way, and the word still hasn't taken on a single standard spelling yet. My guess is that if it did, it would be Shonen (using the same logic as Tokyo). Quote:
As far as I'm aware, the best language for spelling/writing is actually Korean. Korean Hangul has a 1 to 1 relationship between a symbol and it's pronounciation, is very easy to learn, and they don't use much hanja either... Quote:
For example in english, some circles believe that modern general american is closer to what was originally spoken in england 300 years ago, then the english of england today. |
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2012-05-20, 10:42 | Link #116 | |
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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Some posters have already tackled the different angles of the problem in the earlier posts of this thread, but without clarifications from the first poster, it's hard to progress much further into that.
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Last edited by Qilin; 2012-05-20 at 20:30. |
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2012-05-20, 15:42 | Link #117 | |||
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That doesn't sound awfully logical, but not knowing the reasoning behind their thesis does not give much value to my opinion. But even if this is the case, the english language has a continuity and evolution through mechanisms within the kingdom of England, and I consider these more authoritative than what its former colonies (like USA and India) officially or not have, that have adapted the language at some point officially. |
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2012-05-20, 20:40 | Link #118 | ||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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Compare the front page of the Korean wikipedia to the Japanese wikipedia. The Japanese wikipedia is at least half Kanji. I didn't see any hanja on the Korean page. You could probably learn Korean without ever touching any Hanja with little trouble. Quote:
Some American dialects are not as valid as others, for instance those that are heavily influenced by immigrant groups (like New York English). General American is considered the most "conservative" form of American English, and hasn't changed much compared to other american dialects. It's considered more likely to be closer to the English of 300 years ago then Received Pronounciation English for several reasons: 1. English English only became non-rhotic (IE Rs are not pronounced as spelled) after American English split off. American English preserved rhoticity, English English did not. 2. In England they started dropping Hs, they did not in America. 3. In England Ts started to be replaced with Glottal Stops And more. Changes have taken place in General American as well, but not to the same degree. This is partially due to it's nature as a kind of conglomeration of several regional accents that neutralized one anothers differences. General American also more closely corresponds to the written language then English English. More letters are pronounced, while English English leaves many silent, or replaces them with a different sound entirely. You can trace the lineage of English by looking at the dialects that split off at various times. In particular, American English corresponds to the English of ~1720s while Australian English corresponds to the English of ~1850s. They're are as valid approximants for those periods as modern RP. It can also be clearly seen that Australian English is closer to English English, due to it's more recent split. These two in particular are relevant because they're splits of English. Scottish English, for instance, is not, as it's a sister dialect to English, and never "split off" from it, but developed in tandem. Likewise Irish English(though it integrated many elements of Irish). It's as likely that Shakespeare was performed in a pronounciation similiar to that of modern Cleveland or Chicago, as modern London. Last edited by DonQuigleone; 2012-05-20 at 20:52. |
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2012-06-11, 20:31 | Link #119 | |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2011
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Sorry if I bring this thread again but there just no decent threads which had recent posts. I also don't much opportunity to log in this forum either.
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I think most of my problems would be solved if they can made completely new genre for Kuroshitsuji and some other similar titles are labeled as "bishounen action mangas for girls" instead of slapping word "shounen" on them. |
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2012-06-11, 20:43 | Link #120 | |
Me at work
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Again,it all depends on where the bishonen action manga gets published,if it gets published in a shonen magazine then it's labelled a shonen,if it's published in a shoujo magazine (like for exemple the manga adaptation of the anime K) then it's a shoujo.
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Last edited by totoum; 2012-06-11 at 20:56. |
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