2011-09-09, 14:33 | Link #16361 | |
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 43
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At best NATO will ignore what Turkey is doing as long as it does not provoke a major incident.
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2011-09-09, 14:40 | Link #16362 | |||
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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or, while we're at it, does Israel wait around for NATO's actions ? Quote:
its the only one who's interested in prolonging this useless "conflict" then it already has. saying it has the initiative is like saying that a man playing racket ball against the wall has the initiative. its because he's the only one playing.
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2011-09-09, 14:43 | Link #16363 | |||||||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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EDIT: Also, nations can't be so easily kicked out of NATO. |
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2011-09-09, 14:45 | Link #16364 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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Again, there are no Paletinian territorial waters, regardless of who recognizes what. Those waters have not been negotiated yet between Palestine and Israel. Even in the unofficial state of Palestine...there are not yet territorial waters they claim.
Add to this the blockade. A legal blockade I might add. Running a blockade gets one fired upon. Military force used to break a blockade is generally considered an act of war. Ships entering the blockade zone are subject to searches by the Israeli Navy. Warships entering the area may be subject to other rules, but one imagines the Isreali Navy will attempt to inspect whatever ships they are escorting, including firing on those ships if they do not comply. If the Turks return fire for the ships they are escorting...well...that is a problem now, isn't it.
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2011-09-09, 14:50 | Link #16365 | |||||||
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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the only numbers that matter are the active and reserve personal. which makes it 800,000 vs 700,000 and even MORE in Israel's favor once you realize that Turkey's huge land army is not going to play a part at all. Quote:
why not ? edit: also, NOT a BIT better. Quote:
not for long, anyway. Quote:
its not the point. Turkey can't afford to leave its back exposed. Quote:
we're not exactly a forgiving people, especially towards Israeli political figures. Erdugan, by contrast, is utterly hated by HIS OWN ARMY. (the parts of it he hasn't imprisoned or forced into retainment already that is.)
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2011-09-09, 14:54 | Link #16366 | ||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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The Blockade may be legally, but is it ethically? Is it ethical to use such a collective punishment on an entire community of 1.7 million people for the actions of a few hundred militants? Is it ethical to force an entire community to depend on a few scraps of aid?
And if we're going to talk legalities, is Israel's occupation and colonisation of the West Bank Legal? Israel has shown it has no respect for international law, and has repeatedly ignored the UN. I don't see why we should be using the UN's findings in it's defense now. From a common sense perspective, the Gazans should have control of their own coastline, and should be able to import and export goods as they please. It's not for Israel to dictate what they can and cannot do. EDIT: Violating an israeli blockade that is itself illegal ISN'T. The Turks do not consider it illegal, and NATO the important organisation here, has expressed no opinion. Quote:
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EDIT 2: Greece, like Turkey is part of NATO, it will not attack Turkey. Bulgaria is part of NATO as well. And Georgia doesn't have much beef with Turkey right now... |
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2011-09-09, 15:00 | Link #16367 | ||||||||
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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shame common sense doesn't apply. Quote:
the U.N team, that Turkey was a PART of says so. Quote:
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all of which Turkey knows, since it used to regularly train with the IAF before Erdugan started acting like a fool. Quote:
Turkey attacked Greece, and is occupying Greek territory as we speak.
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2011-09-09, 15:06 | Link #16368 | |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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Israel created this bed, now it has to lie in it. You can't piss over an entire group of people and not expect any of them to fight back. That's not to say I condone Palestinian actions either, but we can't lose sight of the fact that israel routinely mistreats it's own Arab citizens, and the Arabs of the West Bank and Gaza. If the Arabs were prosperous, and had real opportunities for the future they might be less intent on attacking Israel. EDIT: Turkey is illegally occupying Cyprus, that has nothing to do with Greece, other then Greece expressing some measure of moral support. Otherwise, Greece and Turkey have no border conflicts. |
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2011-09-09, 15:11 | Link #16369 | ||
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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this is about Turkey's latest poo flinging. nothing else. Quote:
why do you think its people are called "Greek Cypriots" ?
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2011-09-09, 15:16 | Link #16371 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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its there, and its legal, and your opinion, or anyone elses opinion (especially Turkey's) is irrelevant.
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2011-09-09, 15:19 | Link #16372 | |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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Yes, the rocket attacks on Israel are also wrong and villainous. But 2 wrongs do not make a right. Israel can't solve it's problems by attacking whole groups of people. |
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2011-09-09, 15:22 | Link #16373 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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2011-09-09, 15:25 | Link #16374 | |
Kurumada's lost child
Join Date: Nov 2003
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On a positive note, I believe it is impossible for an alien species able to travel through space to be malignant because the technology required for such a feat gives you the power to wipe out not just your planet but your solar system. You would have to be very advanced not just technologically but spiritually as well in order to keep your emotions in check.
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2011-09-09, 15:27 | Link #16375 | |
blinded by blood
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2011-09-09, 15:27 | Link #16376 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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namely, that the Alien species IS both highly advanced AND malignant. they may already HAVE destroyed their planet, and in need of a new one.
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2011-09-09, 15:29 | Link #16377 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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Your opinion of the ethics of the blockade mean nothing to the situation. Under international law, the blockade is legal regardless of the ethics (war is unethical...but it happens anyway). if Turkey decides to help some ships run the blockade and fire on Israeli naval vessels, it is an act of war. It is that simple.
It might not lead to war, but that is the standard, cold nature of international law from even before there was a United Nations to say if something was legal or not. It was law of the seas type thing about blockades and running them. Since the entire point of a blockade is to keep things from entering a country, they are generally unethical by default. Think World War One. The British and Germans blockaded each other in whatever ways they could. The British blockaded using their vast surface fleet, the Germans used u-boats to starve out the United Kingdom. It was fairly effective, but not abolute (since the British Isles are rather large and u-boats can't be everywhere at once). The Israeli blockade has much less area to cover so they can be more efficeint. They let some thing though, but other things are not allowed to enter. They aren't randomly sinking every single ship that comes into that area for instance.
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2011-09-09, 15:40 | Link #16378 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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NATO WILL NOT defend Turkey if Turkey provokes a incident with Israel. Regardless of what NATO countries think about blockade. At best countries like the US will sent out high level diplomats to work out some facing measure for both sides. If the Turkey PM thinks the same way you do that NATO will defend Turkey regardless, then he is a absolutely idiot. Regarding Israel oppression, Might Makes Right. That is the philosphy that rule the world since the first human pick a rock and use it as weapon against another human. It will continue to be the guiding principle by which all humanity will live under till extinction.
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2011-09-09, 15:46 | Link #16379 |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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The international law is there, but it's pretty murky. International law is very flaky when it concerns regions of the world that are not part of any particular state.
I know perfectly well that might makes right in International law(as unfortunate as it may be). This is a case however, where Israel is now coming up against someone that is practically it's equal, Turkey. The fact that Turkey is part of Nato is very relevant. If this was, say, Iran getting into a dispute with Israel there would always be the possibility of the US, UK and other Nato members intervening on the side of Israel. In this case that cannot take place, because Turkey is a NATO member. Furthermore, a lot of other NATO members similiarly disagree with Israely actions regarding the blockade, and might give support to Turkey. Israel is not exactly popular in Europe at the moment. Whether or not NATO is obliged to intervene due to the mutual defense treaty is a matter of debate, largely because both countries are claiming to be acting out of self defense, and both have some legal basis for that claim, as the UN has ruled in each of their favour on the matter. It's ruled in favour of Israel in that the blockade was legal, but also in favour of Turkey in claiming that the attack on Turkish civilians was unwarranted. Both can reasonably claim to be the defender. And you can also reasonably argue that both are the aggressor. Turkey for obvious reasons, but Israel for actually initiating the blockade in the first place, and killing turkish citizens. |
2011-09-09, 16:07 | Link #16380 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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current affairs, discussion, international |
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