[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[Kets]

What do you mean by Alternate?

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Kets

What do you mean by Alternate?

Spoiler for Episode 4:

I'm guessing she means different versions of characters. Like how even though Witch Maria is introduced she is still the same as Maria.

[Bern-chan]

Could anyone explain who the human-looking new characters are?

Spoiler for spoilers:

All I know is that one is Kyrie's sister, one is Ange's bodyguard and another is supposed to be someone from Higurashi?

[Klashikari]

@marion: he, not she

@bern-chan:

Humans only? here goes the list

Spoiler for episode 4, new characters, humans:

-Okonogi Tetsurou
-Sumadera Kazumi
-Amakusa Juuza
-Professor Ootsuki
-Nanjo Masayuki
-Kumasawa Sabakichi
-Captain Kawabata

as for the other characters:

Spoiler for episode 4, new furniture:

-Sakutarou
-Gaap
-Siesta 00

I did not count Siesta 556, because she only appears in the tips, and she is mentioned only once in episode 4

[Bern-chan]

I was hoping for a bit more detail, if you don't mind. :P

[crazysjd89]

These have a lot of character details in them, so just be warned. I wasn't
sure if this is what you wanted when you say "details"

Spoiler for Details of new Episode 4, humans:

Okonogi - Looks like his Higurashi counterpart, and is the head of the bodyguards that guard Eva and Ange.

Kazumi - Kyrie's sister. She has white hair and wears a kimono, and is after Ange. She hated Kyrie because Kyrie should have been the head of their family, but she ran off and married Rudolph.

Amakusa - Ange's personal bodyguard through the episode, he has silver hair and looks a bit gangsterish. If I recall correctly, I believe they said he was French.

Ootsuki - A guy with black hair a huge nose. He is the one who has the reference to Witch Hunt. As such, he is one of the people trying to solve what happened at Rokkenjima.

Masayuki - Nanjo's son. He looks similar to Nanjo.

Sabakichi - Kumasawa's son, a slightly fat person with a shaved head (I think).

Kawabata - An old man with a green hat on his head. He was the captain who drove everyone to Rokkenjima, and he drove Ange there also.

Spoiler for Details of new Episode 4 characters, magic-beings:

Sakutarou - A stuffed lion who was apprantly given a human form by Maria. In his human form he has blonde hair and wears yellow oversized clothing. He was made by Rosa for Maria's birthday (not sure which one, though). He says うりゅ a lot.

<s>Yukari</s> Gaap - Another demon from the 72 pillars, like Ronove, who has the ability to form gaps to other locations. She's the one with curly blond hair, and the dress that is completly open on the sides.

Siesta 00 - A new Siesta, with long blonde hair. She seems to be the leader of the group.

Siesta 556 - A new Siesta, but is only mentioned in passing. She was killed by "The Black Witch". She has short black hair.

[ClockWorkAngel]

I just thought of something you know the numbers placed on the door, that Battler commented was the date of his birth? Perhaps that's a reference to the baby swapping in some way? Really I'm just going on a limp here, but it does seem like a coincidence.

[crazysjd89]

Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel

I just thought of something you know the numbers placed on the door, that Battler commented was the date of his birth? Perhaps that's a reference to the baby swapping in some way? Really I'm just going on a limp here, but it does seem like a coincidence.

Spoiler for Episode 4:

But then, I wonder why it would be written on the door. If it were to "inform" Battler, it didn't do a very good job on it, since he was completly confused.

Episode 4 has made me think a lot about that number, because they are apprantly bank numbers, but why would they be written on the door?

Perhaps, someone on the island knew the numbers (perhaps George? Maybe he had a set of the numbers, and the killer got it out of him.) And then, writing it on the door might have been because the killer figured they couldn't remember the 8-number string, so it was a reminder to themselves, so they could find pen and paper and write it down.

[Ankoku-chan]

Trying to locate the English translations for Lambda's Diary and Bern's letter. Search isn't really helping (but does it really ever?)

Can someone link me to those posts, please?

[Kets]

Originally Posted by Ankoku-chan

Trying to locate the English translations for Lambda's Diary and Bern's letter. Search isn't really helping (but does it really ever?)

Can someone link me to those posts, please?

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1003
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1009

Here's Anti-mytsery vs. Anti-fantasy, if you need this as well:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1021

[Ankoku-chan]

Thank you, Kets ^_^

[kiby]

(*w*)

Spoiler for higurashi (minnagoroshi hen):

About "rules" does someone has an idea about what could be Rule X Y and Z?

[rogerpepitone]

I posted my theories about rules X, Y, and Z at http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1104

Spoiler for possible Battler's birth story:

Also, so what if miscarriages only happen up to 6 months? If a doctor told Kyrie she had miscarried, I think she would have taken his word for it.

Assumption: Kyrie was always Rudolf's real interest; Rudolf was only marrying Asumu because she was pregnant; Asumu knew both those facts. (Partly supported by the fact that he did marry Kyrie right after Asumu died.)

I could see Asumu:
- going to the trouble to steal Kyrie's baby, somehow, if she miscarried, and realized that Rudolf would immediately drop her when he learns of it.
- convince a doctor to treat Kyrie with something like scopolamine, induce labor while she's out, and tell her that she miscarried afterwards.
- keeping the child alive because Rudolf would leave her if "his son by her" died
- using Kyrie's son because he was the right age and he would pass any paternity tests.
- keeping premature Battler hidden and somehow faking a birth (perhaps have a C-section as an excuse to keep Rudolf away from the actual birthing)

On the other hand, I fail to see how it matters to the events of 1986 whether Battler's genetic mother is Asumu, Kyrie, or Jane Doe.

[Marion]

It does matter actually. Not completely in 1986, but to the sake of the game

Spoiler for Episode 4/SUPER BIG SPOILERS, SHIELD YOUR EYES IF YOU HAVE NOT PLAYED FOUR OR READ ABOUT ITTT!~:

Somewhere halfway through episode 4 (I'm pretty sure it's halfway, can't remember for sure), Beatrice stops playing, deciding that she has become bored with Battler. Ange, Bern, Lambda and Battler are clearly pissed at her spoiled attitude and she just says that it's her game and she can choose how long she wants to wait until she wants to continue it. Battler gets madder and Beatrice asks him what his sin is and if that he could remember it then she would continue.

Battler can't remember and Beatrice begins to ask him to state things in red (which he can do now in this episode apparently). Ange apparently knows whats going on and tries to stop her but it's hopeless. She continues to ask Battler to state things, but once she asks him to state "I am born from Asumu Ushiromiya" he cannot do so. He continues to try it, but he still can't state in red that he was born from Asumu.

Beatrice then does what is perhaps the greatest mindfuck since her 'North Wind and Sun' strategy and tells him that he is not Battler Ushiromiya. Why? Because her opponent, Kinzo's grandson Battler Ushiromiya, has been dead for six years. This is apparently Battler's sin - impersonating Battler Ushiromiya for some purpose. Battler obviously has no idea what's going on and neither does Lambda (Lambda is only helping because as we know from the 3rd Tea Party, she wants Beatrice's game to continue forever), but Bernkastel completely submits, saying that because Battler doesn't have the right to battle her then she loses.

Ange of course refuses to let Beatrice do this and basically starts her journey to realize true magic. It's pretty long, but long story short: Ange learns what true magic is about and is able to find Beatrice, who is hiding in a Golden Land world she made with Maria. Ange revives Sakutarou, which Beatrice couldn't do, to prove that she is a real witch. Beatrice then returns to Purgatorio with Ange and is forced to resume her game with Battler - because even if he is not THE Battler Ushiromiya, he is still Rudolph Ushiromiya's son and therefore IS Kinzo's Grandson, thus giving him right to fight with her.

Battler is brought back by Bernkastel, but he is completely a shell of the person he was, believing completely in Beatrice's words. Ange tries to pull him out of it with a sacrifice - to return his fighting spirit and make him remember why he is fighting Beatrice in the first place she states to Battler in red that she is his sister Ange. A long, really sad speech happens, and Battler regains his will to fight Beatrice. Ange is destroyed, due to Lambda's rule that she could not reveal to Battler her real identity (which is why she called herself Gretel).

We can pretty much say that only Rudolph and Asumu knows the truth, since Kyrie herself believes that she had a miscarriage from her monologue to Levithan.

[Rias]

Originally Posted by Marion

It does matter actually. Not completely in 1986, but to the sake of the game

Spoiler for Episode 4/SUPER BIG SPOILERS, SHIELD YOUR EYES IF YOU HAVE NOT PLAYED FOUR OR READ ABOUT ITTT!~:

Somewhere halfway through episode 4 (I'm pretty sure it's halfway, can't remember for sure), Beatrice stops playing, deciding that she has become bored with Battler. Ange, Bern, Lambda and Battler are clearly pissed at her spoiled attitude and she just says that it's her game and she can choose how long she wants to wait until she wants to continue it. Battler gets madder and Beatrice asks him what his sin is and if that he could remember it then she would continue.

Battler can't remember and Beatrice begins to ask him to state things in red (which he can do now in this episode apparently). Ange apparently knows whats going on and tries to stop her but it's hopeless. She continues to ask Battler to state things, but once she asks him to state "I am born from Asumu Ushiromiya" he cannot do so. He continues to try it, but he still can't state in red that he was born from Asumu.

Beatrice then does what is perhaps the greatest mindfuck since her 'North Wind and Sun' strategy and tells him that he is not Battler Ushiromiya. Why? Because her opponent, Kinzo's grandson Battler Ushiromiya, has been dead for six years. This is apparently Battler's sin - impersonating Battler Ushiromiya for some purpose. Battler obviously has no idea what's going on and neither does Lambda (Lambda is only helping because as we know from the 3rd Tea Party, she wants Beatrice's game to continue forever), but Bernkastel completely submits, saying that because Battler doesn't have the right to battle her then she loses.

Ange of course refuses to let Beatrice do this and basically starts her journey to realize true magic. It's pretty long, but long story short: Ange learns what true magic is about and is able to find Beatrice, who is hiding in a Golden Land world she made with Maria. Ange revives Sakutarou, which Beatrice couldn't do, to prove that she is a real witch. Beatrice then returns to Purgatorio with Ange and is forced to resume her game with Battler - because even if he is not THE Battler Ushiromiya, he is still Rudolph Ushiromiya's son and therefore IS Kinzo's Grandson, thus giving him right to fight with her.

Battler is brought back by Bernkastel, but he is completely a shell of the person he was, believing completely in Beatrice's words. Ange tries to pull him out of it with a sacrifice - to return his fighting spirit and make him remember why he is fighting Beatrice in the first place she states to Battler in red that she is his sister Ange. A long, really sad speech happens, and Battler regains his will to fight Beatrice. Ange is destroyed, due to Lambda's rule that she could not reveal to Battler her real identity (which is why she called herself Gretel).

We can pretty much say that only Rudolph and Asumu knows the truth, since Kyrie herself believes that she had a miscarriage from her monologue to Levithan.

There's definitely some stuff in there that I don't remember happening...

[marebito]

about Marion's summary (so again, SPOILERS included):

Spoiler:

Why do you assume that the supposed impersonating is Battler's sin? Where is the evidende for that? Where did Beato state that this was his sin? I might be wrong but I just read that scene today and I don't think that happened. So the only thing we know is that Battler committed a sin 6 years ago (where Beato supposedly does not 'exist', whatever she exactly means with that sentence) that causes everyone to die on Rokkenjima in the year 1986.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Marion

It does matter actually. Not completely in 1986, but to the sake of the game

Spoiler for Episode 4/SUPER BIG SPOILERS, SHIELD YOUR EYES IF YOU HAVE NOT PLAYED FOUR OR READ ABOUT ITTT!~:

Somewhere halfway through episode 4 (I'm pretty sure it's halfway, can't remember for sure), Beatrice stops playing, deciding that she has become bored with Battler. Ange, Bern, Lambda and Battler are clearly pissed at her spoiled attitude and she just says that it's her game and she can choose how long she wants to wait until she wants to continue it. Battler gets madder and Beatrice asks him what his sin is and if that he could remember it then she would continue.

Battler can't remember and Beatrice begins to ask him to state things in red (which he can do now in this episode apparently). Ange apparently knows whats going on and tries to stop her but it's hopeless. She continues to ask Battler to state things, but once she asks him to state "I am born from Asumu Ushiromiya" he cannot do so. He continues to try it, but he still can't state in red that he was born from Asumu.

Beatrice then does what is perhaps the greatest mindfuck since her 'North Wind and Sun' strategy and tells him that he is not Battler Ushiromiya. Why? Because her opponent, Kinzo's grandson Battler Ushiromiya, has been dead for six years. This is apparently Battler's sin - impersonating Battler Ushiromiya for some purpose. Battler obviously has no idea what's going on and neither does Lambda (Lambda is only helping because as we know from the 3rd Tea Party, she wants Beatrice's game to continue forever), but Bernkastel completely submits, saying that because Battler doesn't have the right to battle her then she loses.

Ange of course refuses to let Beatrice do this and basically starts her journey to realize true magic. It's pretty long, but long story short: Ange learns what true magic is about and is able to find Beatrice, who is hiding in a Golden Land world she made with Maria. Ange revives Sakutarou, which Beatrice couldn't do, to prove that she is a real witch. Beatrice then returns to Purgatorio with Ange and is forced to resume her game with Battler - because even if he is not THE Battler Ushiromiya, he is still Rudolph Ushiromiya's son and therefore IS Kinzo's Grandson, thus giving him right to fight with her.

Battler is brought back by Bernkastel, but he is completely a shell of the person he was, believing completely in Beatrice's words. Ange tries to pull him out of it with a sacrifice - to return his fighting spirit and make him remember why he is fighting Beatrice in the first place she states to Battler in red that she is his sister Ange. A long, really sad speech happens, and Battler regains his will to fight Beatrice. Ange is destroyed, due to Lambda's rule that she could not reveal to Battler her real identity (which is why she called herself Gretel).

We can pretty much say that only Rudolph and Asumu knows the truth, since Kyrie herself believes that she had a miscarriage from her monologue to Levithan.

There are several wrong statements in this summary

Spoiler for Episode 4:

-This happen rather at the 2/3, 3/4 of the game

-Beatrice never stated what was the "sin" or "crime"

-The real Ushiromiya Battler status is NOT revealed. We do not know if he (or she?) is alive or dead. Let alone their whereabouts. And no, it never used the word "grandson" either, so gender is not confirmed.

-There is no evident fact or proof that Battler's crime was because he took place of Original Battler.
The only facts we know are as follow
1) It is unrelated to Beatrice, whose concept wasn't known at that time (not contradictory with her thousand years life span)
2) It is a direct/indirect cause of the tragedy. It doesn't mean there are more than this. Therefore, it can be another cause that, combined with others, led to the Rokkenjima mass murder tragedy

By the way, Battler's true mother doesn't exactly matter, unless his true mother might have a big role in this mystery. Aside, it was just a cheap way for Beatrice to forcefully remove Ange from the game.

[Marion]

Whoops!~

Just went through episode 4 again and realized Mare and Klash are right XD; Sorry about that.

Spoiler for Episode 4:

As far as using it as a cheap way to remove Ange, it is a fact that Battler could not state that he was born from Asumu. So it leads us to wonder where Battler from Asumu is? Rosa thought the same thing in episode 2 when she accused Battler of being 'the wolf'.

Honestly, I personally find red text dubious. It seems to convenient to trust everything in red. Like when in episode 2 when Beatrice stated in red that Battler was incompetent :U

[Klashikari]

Without red text, it doesn't allow the readers to figure what can be truth from what they see in the story.
While usual detective novels always use normal settings, Umineko has too much fancy and fantasy elements. Without any solid basis reference, it will just crumble the opportunity for the readers to have a coherent and decent guesswork and theories process.

if the red text cannot be trusted, the story doesn't have any purpose or worth, and waiting for the last chapter wouldn't be satisfying either.
And since the story showed how the red truth is used with semantic sharking, it increases the flaws aspect but also strengthen their truth.

[Haruyan]

Maybe we should open a threat exclusive for red text, because there seems to be a lot of opinions whether to trust the red text or, completely or partially. Like other evidence though, it seems to be subject to interpretation (of us, the reader), IMHO.

All in all, the episodes keep getting more magical as the story goes on (I'm only half-way through EP4, just looking at the pictures 'cause I don't know japanese), I can't help but wonder what Ryuukishi plans for the answer arc....but I'm sure he'll absolutely crush our theories....