[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 8 Twilight of the golden witch

[Renall]

Not exactly, since we can't actually posit questions to the characters. The purple is the purple they provide, and it can't change and we can't ask for more of it. It's more like one of those static grid-based logic puzzles. I had to do a lot of those in school. They suck. The difference is at one point you hit contradiction and have to find the most contradictory statement to proceed.

[AuraTwilight]

I always found those puzzles sort of fun. Like I need more evidence that I'm evil.

[LyricalAura]

Nah, I like those too. The nastier they are, the better.

[fuff]

besides umineko rei...is the author planning on doing more when they cry-higurashi ones? even if i dont think he can expand the story much...i like higurashi better than umineko lol

[Tjfarmer]

Originally Posted by fuff

besides umineko rei...is the author planning on doing more when they cry-higurashi ones? even if i dont think he can expand the story much...i like higurashi better than umineko lol

Higurashi is done, don't expect any more VNs for it. Manga side-stories are still possible, if not likely.

[Witch of Uncertainty]

Originally Posted by Tjfarmer

Higurashi is done, don't expect any more VNs for it. Manga side-stories are still possible, if not likely.

Even for Alchemist?

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I always found those puzzles sort of fun. Like I need more evidence that I'm evil.

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Nah, I like those too. The nastier they are, the better.

That's what a true mystery novel is for you (or, if you don't like the term "true," then think conventional/classic/Golden Age).
Go read some of John Dickson Carr's novels and cry like a baby - not because of the story, there's no drama, and in fact, Carr is not that great when it comes to narrative, but just try solving his puzzles.
Cecil Street and Ellery Queen are also quite wicked when writing mysteries. I love them almost as much as Carr.

[Tjfarmer]

Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty

Even for Alchemist?

Lemme rephrase then...

Don't expect any more VNs directly written and supervised by Ryukishi and 07thExpansion

[immblueversion]

Originally Posted by Tjfarmer

Don't expect any more VNs directly written and supervised by Ryukishi and 07thExpansion

Even an Umineko "equivalent" of Higurashi Rei? I heard it was rumored and Ryukishi supposedly brought it up in his interviews, but that's not from my firsthand experiences so I couldn't say for sure.

[Tjfarmer]

Originally Posted by immblueversion

Even an Umineko "equivalent" of Higurashi Rei? I heard it was rumored and Ryukishi supposedly brought it up in his interviews, but that's not from my firsthand experiences so I couldn't say for sure.

I just can't get it right today :P I was talking about for Higurashi, not Umineko.

[immblueversion]

Originally Posted by Tjfarmer

I just can't get it right today :P I was talking about for Higurashi, not Umineko.

Sorry, didn't see that part of the comment.

[neutrino]

Originally Posted by immblueversion

I don't quite remember if the cake is relevant to anything, but it most definitely does not relate to the ending.

For the multiple endings, you literally just come to a screen where you choose between pressing one of two buttons clearly marked "Magic" and "Trick" leading to either one.

The coins just unlock additional scenes either during the quizzes where you win them or at the very end during the "Magic" ending. Either way, the extra scenes just involve all the other family members and servants.

I read on the wiki that there were several endings, so does the choice screen come up multiple times?

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by immblueversion

Even an Umineko "equivalent" of Higurashi Rei? I heard it was rumored and Ryukishi supposedly brought it up in his interviews, but that's not from my firsthand experiences so I couldn't say for sure.

He used the words "Umineko Rei" in an episode 6 interview, but not in that context. here's the quote:

Will EP7 end the series?
Who knows? Seven is a lucky number (laughs), and EP8 might become an omake episode, like an "Umineko no Naku Koro ni Rei". (laughs again)
However, I think we will be giving out an extremely merciless answer in EP7.

He was really just joking about episode 8. It wasn't referring to a separate game or anything.

[neutrino]

Originally Posted by Renall

If anything, purple text is more of a logic problem than anything else, as it requires you to do the old "Bob is taller than Mary, Antoine is shorter than Lisa, Lisa is taller than Bob" song and dance.

That's my point. By turning the last mystery into a logic problem, is Ryuu07 making a metatextual point that relying on things like authoritative voices (such as the Red Text) and rigid rules of writing (literally enforced by Heaven on penalty of death) turn a story into a puzzle?

[Mcjon01]

Originally Posted by Judoh

He was really just joking about episode 8. It wasn't referring to a separate game or anything.

Well, he does mention still wanting to write an Umineko Rei and a new When They Cry in the production diary. It's in the post he made right before Episode 8 came out.

http://07th-expansion.net/Cgi/clip/clip.cgi

[Renall]

Originally Posted by neutrino

That's my point. By turning the last mystery into a logic problem, is Ryuu07 making a metatextual point that relying on things like authoritative voices (such as the Red Text) and rigid rules of writing (literally enforced by Heaven on penalty of death) turn a story into a puzzle?

If he is, he sort of screwed up by not having an answer key. A puzzle has a correct answer; if it doesn't, it's not a puzzle, but a thought experiment.

It's like if you read a clever riddle in a book, but then you flip to the back and somebody tore out the page that gives an answer. How many answers are there to "what has four legs and flies?" A lot; some serious, some silly. If you don't know which one the riddle creator was going for, it might as well be any of them.

[kiby]

Ok....just finished ep 8.
I'm still a bit confused as I do not remember when the two first message-bottles were send but i think that we do not need any other clues to "solve " the game (looks like the truth is pretty boring anyway...).

I do not know what you think aboute the trick ending but I do not think it matched with this episode's thema.

Spoiler for trick end:

"Ho Amakusa was a good guy anyway....but I killed him"

[MeoTwister5]

Back to work! Here's the summary I promised for yesterday but didn't get around to it.

Spoiler for Summary:

Somewhere on King's Highway
- The person regains consciousness inside a car and sees a young woman driving. She says he was lucky and didn't die. The person feels pain around the abdomen.
- After a few days (?) the woman is speaking to a doctor who says that the person she found, a young man, might be suffering from some brain damage based on the CT scan. She asks him to keep this a secret. She introduces herself to the young man as Hachijou Ikuko.
- She says she's living alone in this house away from her family and cracks some jokes. She asks for his name. The young man cannot remember his identity nor recall any memories of his past. He recalls that he is 18, but cannot recall anything more.
- She decides to give him a name, Hachijou Touya. His body still aches in places. His ends up living with her for a while.
- He enters into physical and mental rehab and slowly is able to recover his body, but he is still amnesic. During his stay he reads some of Hachijou's mystery novel work. He has a knack for mystery stories it seems and quickly finishes her work. She is surprised by his comments on her novel.
- While talking about it he begins to ask himself questions about mysteries. His head aches and he slowly recalls having a mystery battle in his past. He takes some pain meds.
- He refused to take the operation Hachijou suggested. He says he will deal with his headaches. He describes her as someone who prefers to live freely away from the eyes of society. She apparently has a cat named Bern. She prefers to live away from people, while writing her stories. He asks why she doesn't get others to read.
- She says that publishers rejected her work as that of an amateur. Being experienced in the mystery genre doesn't make you good at writing it. She says she has written the first chapter of a new work ans asks him to read it as she makes tea. As she leaves he gets headaches again.
- They spend their days talking about mystery novels. One day she shows the end of her novel to the young man. He gives a few comments to her about her book. He is her first reader, although the idea for the book was partly his. She says it is time for some champagne.
- He says that she should go ahead and try to write a story for publishing. It begins to rain outside after a while. Hachijou is on her computer. Touya notices the harsh rain and the raging wind. She says she is looking at some information about a place called Rokkenjima. She says a message bottle written by a Maria Ushiromiya was recently found. He gets headaches again.
- The narrator describes the events of the island, as well as how Eva Ushiromiya was the only survivor. He starts to mumble the name Ange and the name Ushiromiya. He starts to have sudden flashes of imagery in his mind as he starts to recall his past.
- He begins to see figures of people he starts to recall. He knows these people but he cannot recall their names. The last momentary flash is that of a painting. Touya recalls that he is an Ushiromiya. He hallucinates the voices of his parents.

Golden Land
- In a flash of light someone eyes their while screaming the name Ange and finds themselves in the arms of two people: Rudolph and Kyrie Ushiromiya. The person looks around to see Maria, George and Jessica. Further looking reveals everyone else. Family, friends, metacharacters.
- The person is Ange. They are in the Golden Land.
- The characters gather around her. Ange tells Eva how she wished they could have redone their relationship. The two of them reconcile. They welcome her back.
- Ange now begins to realize that the past is what made her into who she is, and the past cannot chain her for her entire life. She begins to remember the goodness of her family, friends, servants and acquaintances. She knows that she distorted her images of her family due to her pain and suffering. She has become willing to accept the goodness in her past.
- She starts to thank everyone for how they treated her. She tells Maria she now understands Maria's magic. She tells Maria and Beato how her views distorted given all the fake stories that circulated about Rokkenjima, and how heart heart was skewed when she could no longer see nor remember the truth.
- She tells Beato she will live in the future and accept her past. She doesn't blame Beato for what happened. She tells Maria she will teach the magic of the Mariage Sociere as the last survivor. Beato tells her to use magic for happiness. Maria goes into witch form and gives her blessing. Sakutaro and the sisters congratulate her.
- Beato asks if she will be okay alone. She says she will find a way. She is not alone. She wants to live unbound. As a part of Mariage Sociere, she will help others like herself. Everyone has a laugh.
- Battler is taking a walk around the garden when Ange finally finds him. They look at each other for a moment until she runs into him with a hug. He pats her head. She apologizes for her actions. She admits that now she knows the truth and it terrified her.
- Battler tells her that they have already died. She accepts this after 12 years. She says she can now move on with her life. He asks what she thinks now that the catbox has been opened to her, and she says she will believe in her own truth. He wishes her luck in her future endeavors to continue the beliefs of the Mariage Sociere of using magic for happiness, especially those who have experienced hardships like her.
- Ange begins to cry. He says that the family will always support her through eternity. She jumps into his arms. She holds in her hands the kakera of a loving family.
- He says that the catbox is not yet opened for the world to see. She should continue keeping the lid closed and protect it. Everyone in the Golden Land exist within the catbox. She swears to protect the truth of Rokkenjima.
- Lambda arrives and says that Bern is still working to bring the party into the truth of Rokkenjima, and if they succeed then protecting the catbox amounts to nothing. Ange says the key was taken by Bern, and she intends to take it back. She shows her pass to get inside the MetaLibrary. Lambda says her pass allows for only one person. Ange asks Lambda to take her back to the MetaLibrary. Lambda says Bern will be relentless.
- Battler insists he should be the one to go since Ange has a future to live for. Ange insists this is her responsibility. She will get her future by her own hand. Ange and Battler argue on who should go and try to fight over the bell.
- Lambda tells them to stop arguing and asks them to release the bell. Battler lets go and a bell drops. However, when Ange releases another bell also drops. Each have a bell. Both are dumbfounded. Lambda says that since they both have passes they should stop arguing.
- Battler asks Lambda to prepare to take them there. Lambda relents and agrees to take them there. She tells them to prepare as well.

I was apparently mistaken the last time when I thought the fight on Rokkenjima would extend immediately into the Golden Land, but it was merely an escape. Anyway, the REAL Battle of the Golden Land is just about to begin.'

Blog updated.

[neutrino]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I always found those puzzles sort of fun. Like I need more evidence that I'm evil.

Me too (why is that evil?).

Originally Posted by Used Can

That's what a true mystery novel is for you (or, if you don't like the term "true," then think conventional/classic/Golden Age).
Go read some of John Dickson Carr's novels and cry like a baby - not because of the story, there's no drama, and in fact, Carr is not that great when it comes to narrative, but just try solving his puzzles.
Cecil Street and Ellery Queen are also quite wicked when writing mysteries. I love them almost as much as Carr.

Going by (the hypothetical) "pro-story" viewpoint, if you don't have drama or strong narrative or characterization, why make it a novel at all, as opposed to a short story or even a puzzle?

I also like Ellery Queen. As Wikipedia says, he moved from a Philo Vance style detective to including more human interaction. Interestingly, one of his novels featuring a locked room mystery, A Room to Die In, was ghost -written by SF writer Jack Vance.

Originally Posted by Renall

If he is, he sort of screwed up by not having an answer key. A puzzle has a correct answer; if it doesn't, it's not a puzzle, but a thought experiment.

It's like if you read a clever riddle in a book, but then you flip to the back and somebody tore out the page that gives an answer. How many answers are there to "what has four legs and flies?" A lot; some serious, some silly. If you don't know which one the riddle creator was going for, it might as well be any of them.

Like I said, I haven't read it yet, but he may have been trying to illustrate the "anti-mystery" viewpoint.

[Ayu-ayu]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Back to work! Here's the summary I promised for yesterday but didn't get around to it.

I don't think that they ever identified the character found on the road as being either male or female. It's all told POV, and I don't remember any dialogue that described him as a male. In fact, I thought that R07 was doing a deliberate effort here to try to trick the reader into thinking that she had found Ange in the road after her fall. It directly seques from her hitting the ground to the waking up on the road and being saved by Ikuko. Tohya is a gender-neutral-enough name (I think?), so when the flashbacks start to occur, the name that comes to the POV character's mind being Ange (who along with Battler is not shown third person in the flashbacks, but everyone else is) is a further reinforcement of this red herring. If you've had any spoilers, it's easy to assume it was Battler from the start and miss this more subtle point. But R07 is careful not to give this sequence further context until the last portion of the game.

Of course I may be completely mistaken here and on crack. But I remember some fanart comic in the image thread that also, early after the release, portrayed Ange as being the one found in the road, so I know I'm not the only one who thought this (though I knew better from spoilers).

Another thought: I think the second bell was found to be on Ange's person without her noticing it previously. If I recall, it was hinted earlier Evatrice planted it there. But I might be wrong here, too.