AnimeSuki Forums

demino_hellsin · 2013-09-04, 10:22

Would it be wrong to say Touma with memories is a better fighter than Touma without memories?

Loremaster · 2013-09-04, 14:29

Demino@ I think that wouldn't be wrong to say. Because honestly, your memories and experiences are tied with who you are as a person. You see I have my own fanfiction for this series. It's focuses around an oc who is the 6th ranked level five.

And he himself is dealing with memory loss. And I just finished a set of chapters which takes place back before he had lost his memories. And if you compared him from before he lost his memories to after then his fighting prowess is completely different.

With his memories my oc remembers all the training and the experiences he learned from being out in the field. But since he has lost his memories, my oc is trying to learn his powers all over again. Basically if you lose your memories, then your experiences go along with it. I tire those two together and its your experiences in life is what forges who you are as a person. Either that being a great fighter or simply a coward.

allfictions · 2013-09-04, 14:46

However, let's not forget that the Second Touma is probably even more experienced than the first now, since he fought Magicians, who operate on a whole new different set of laws altogether than ESPers. We have to take that into account, too.

Loremaster · 2013-09-04, 14:51

That is very true. And this only happened because he had engaged in constant battle on the magic side. I see that when it comes to close hand to hand combat, Touma is probably one of the best fighters. Though I'm pretty sure a certain double spy could still whoop his arse.

But still I'm pretty sure its not wrong to say that the first Touma was still stronger. None of us truly know what that one had been through before he met Index.

allfictions · 2013-09-04, 14:57

Well, for starters, it doesn't seem the First Touma had precognition...

SmokinFerret88 · 2013-09-04, 15:03

Can't really make that assumption because, lets face it, it was volume one and it was the same volume when Touma first 'died'.

Perhaps Kamachi didn't think of the precognition until the later volumes and just finally mentioned it by volume 20. But, regardless, it still cannot nor should not be assumed that Touma didn't or did have it prior to his memory-loss.

Loremaster · 2013-09-04, 15:25

We can make a good assumption though that Touma one did have it. He blocked Mikoto Misaka's attack on the bridge and you have to be pretty clued in to even block her attacks in time. Lightning attacks aren't exactly slow.

Though I heard in one version it was a railgun instead of a normal lighting arc attack? But that only proves it more.

omega253 · 2013-09-04, 17:37

Misaka using the railgun was in the To Aru Kagaku no Railgun manga. But then again, that is starting to get into AU territory.

I don't really know about Touma's fighting style with or without memories though. Let's face it, the only people that seriously kicked Touma's ass in Old Testament were Tsuchimikado (expert martial artist with a trained body), Kanzaki (expert martial artist with Saint body), and Acqua of the Back (experienced mercenary, probably also a master martial artist, technically also a Double Saint).

..... Yeah, are you people seeing a common trait here? These people curb-stomped our dear Kami-yan's ass because they were simply better at close-range combat than him and also had better trained bodies. Touma, on the other hand, is simply being thrown in battle after battle and he doesn't train at all (at least, not as far as I'm aware).

There was a really early idea back in the beginning of this thread to give Touma martial arts skills on par with those people in Kung Fu Hustle (as in, people who can bend steel with their bare hands and catch bullets in seconds).

Which brings me to a question that I want to ask all of your opinions on.

Would the Imagine Breaker nullify ki/chi/qi?

Technically, it's life energy being emitted by all living creatures, so I don't think that the Imagine Breaker would work if we're following the same logic of why it doesn't destroy ley lines or kill people upon contact.

So Touma might have a chance of being able to learn ki and using it to enhance his body.

Is this a valid way for Touma to get stronger or is this just my own nutty speculation?

demino_hellsin · 2013-09-04, 17:59

I think Touma 1 had the beginnings of precognition. After all, wasn't it during the battle with Kanzaki, he instinctively pulled back his right hand? To him it looked like a laser and something that could be negated. But it was described that he had just felt something wrong so he pulled back.

Also, was it Touma 1 or Touma 2 that describes their fighting skill as, good for 1 on 1, okay for 1 on 2, but can't win in 1 on 3?

allfictions · 2013-09-04, 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by omega253

Misaka using the railgun was in the To Aru Kagaku no Railgun manga. But then again, that is starting to get into AU territory.

I don't really know about Touma's fighting style with or without memories though. Let's face it, the only people that seriously kicked Touma's ass in Old Testament were Tsuchimikado (expert martial artist with a trained body), Kanzaki (expert martial artist with Saint body), and Acqua of the Back (experienced mercenary, probably also a master martial artist, technically also a Double Saint).

..... Yeah, are you people seeing a common trait here? These people curb-stomped our dear Kami-yan's ass because they were simply better at close-range combat than him and also had better trained bodies. Touma, on the other hand, is simply being thrown in battle after battle and he doesn't train at all (at least, not as far as I'm aware).

There was a really early idea back in the beginning of this thread to give Touma martial arts skills on par with those people in Kung Fu Hustle (as in, people who can bend steel with their bare hands and catch bullets in seconds).

Which brings me to a question that I want to ask all of your opinions on.

Would the Imagine Breaker nullify ki/chi/qi?

Technically, it's life energy being emitted by all living creatures, so I don't think that the Imagine Breaker would work if we're following the same logic of why it doesn't destroy ley lines or kill people upon contact.

So Touma might have a chance of being able to learn ki and using it to enhance his body.

Is this a valid way for Touma to get stronger or is this just my own nutty speculation?

Your own nutty speculation

Joking aside, Touma would still negate it, remember, IB negates the part of the leyline it is touching (stated in NT2), but after IB stop touching it, the energy negated is immediately replenished.

omega253 · 2013-09-04, 18:22

Damnit.

Wait, wouldn't Touma just have to use more ki than the Imagine Breaker can nullify at one time? Kind of like what happened with Dragon's Breath and Innocentius.

allfictions · 2013-09-04, 18:39

And that could be a viable solution, that is, if Touma somehow found a way to produce a supernatural power inside of him and render it massive without IB getting in the way of the development, which seems kinda complicated.

Basically, it would be like trying to create a pond in quicksands, hoping the soil doesn't absorb the water.

omega253 · 2013-09-04, 18:45

Once again, damnit.

Ah well, I have a funny fic idea right now. This is not supposed to be treated as canon or serious at all

The Imagine Breaker does something weird and Touma suddenly gets the blatant infatuation of every female around him. The ones who liked him before the phenomenon happened are trying to French him and get in his pants, the ones who didn't .... will be doing the same thing, just more subtle.

Can Touma resist the temptation or will he finally accept the Kami-yan disease and reciprocate the affection? Like I said, this is not to be taken seriously in anyway.

Ilidsor · 2013-09-04, 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by omega253

Would the Imagine Breaker nullify ki/chi/qi?

Technically, it's life energy being emitted by all living creatures, so I don't think that the Imagine Breaker would work if we're following the same logic of why it doesn't destroy ley lines or kill people upon contact.

So Touma might have a chance of being able to learn ki and using it to enhance his body.

Is this a valid way for Touma to get stronger or is this just my own nutty speculation?

He only destroys "refined" life force. Using your life force is how you get mana in the first place in this series, and he destroys that whenever he touches it. So while he wouldn't destroy it normally the act of refining it so that he can use it will make him erase it.

omega253 · 2013-09-04, 20:14

..... *sigh* I've lost my motivation to continue writing my next chapter.... Damnit.

Anybody have any new fic ideas? I need something to keep my mind distracted.

Ilidsor · 2013-09-04, 20:27

You could write the next chapter of Touma's Busy Day for me

I'm so damn busy right now.

omega253 · 2013-09-04, 20:37

Ahahahahaha, no.

Seriously, what I meant by losing motivation was, I feel like Shinji Ikari in one of his darker moments right now.

How's that for unmotivated?

Ilidsor · 2013-09-04, 20:40

Yeah that's... that's pretty intense

allfictions · 2013-09-04, 20:54

So, I have an idea of my own.

Extremely cliché.

Maybe.

And actually, it's more of a plot bunny since there are several ''plotholes'' in it, and some links are missing between some elements.

So, a Toaru/Fate/stay night crossover. Yeah, I know...

But I feel that every one of those crossovers, when it's not built on the (really poor) premise of ''Second Magic/Zeltretch's intervention, LOL!'', try really hard to do some sort of ''fusion fic'', where both the rules of the Nasuverse and the rules of the TAMNI Verse apply. While a valliant effort worthy of praise (seriously, I take my hat off to people trying), I think of it as being near impossible. So to spare myself some nasty headaches, I was thinking of bending (sorry, Nasu fans) the Nasuverse to the TAMNI Verse. A bit like how Mahou Senki: Lyrical Days did with the Nasuverse bending to the Nanoha Verse's rules.

The premise: it's of course centered around Shirou as a character.

Spoiler for Long introduction:

That's where things change. For starters, Kiritsugu decides to move to Shimabara, Japan. There, not only after a certain time does Shirou learn of magic, but he (and Kiritsugu too?) meets and befriends the Christian sect Amakusa-Style Remix of Church, especially one of the youngest member named Itsuwa, and the young Supreme Pontiff, the Saint Kanzaki Kaori. After Kiritsugu dies, he is taken in, and continues to further his knowledge of magic.

Of course, he is still quite the unimpressive Magician, with low levels of mana, and only good in Reinforcement (extremely similar to the spell Scattered Grass of Itsuwa who uses the meaning of layers of a tree as their age to reinforce a weapon with many layers of resine) and Projection, but he has some practice with basic Amakusa-Style spells, and he is quite profficient in combat thanks to them.

The fic would truly begin with the Orsola Aquinas Rescue Arc. With eventually a fight between Touma and Amakusa!Shirou.

Just because it would be cool.

After being defeated, Shirou quickly becomes friend with Touma due to their similar personnas and ideals, though Touma doesn't want to become a hero like Shirou does.

Etc, etc.

Arcs (where most of the time, Shirou is involved in Touma's adventures):
Orsola Aquinas Rescue Arc
Necessarius Special Entrance Exam Arc

La Regina del Mare Adriatico Arc
Document of Constantine Arc (where Shirou accompanies Itsuwa in her investigation in Avignon)
Acqua of the Back Arc (Touma has 2 bodyguards this time. And Shirou Tracing Ascalon maybe)
English Civil War Arc (Shirou Tracing EVERYTHING!!!

)

And probably a Shirou/Touma rematch down the road.

Problems with writtig this fic:
1. Those called ''Type-Lunatics'', those Nasu fans who insist that fanworks in the Nasuverse need to follow the rules with absolute precision, when Nasu himself throws said rules out whenever they get in the way of the story. Frankly, this story would be so dyed in TAMNI flavour, I don't know if any fan would like it.
2. I have no explanation whatsoever for Shirou's Reality Marble, or heck, even Kiritsugu's abilities, that ties in with the Idol Theory. Seriously.
3. In my opinion, La Regina del Mare Adriatico Arc was not exactly an interesting arc, yet I would have to get through it before moving on to more interesting events.

But frankly, one of the reasons I would like to (see that written)write it is a ridiculous one: ShirouxItsuwa pairing.

You can throw the rocks at me now.

SmokinFerret88 · 2013-09-04, 21:08

*Throws rocks*

.... these are insufficient.........*Raises megaphone* MUGINO!!!!!!

*Cue laser-beams!*

2013-09-04, 17:37	Link #4608
omega253 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2013	Misaka using the railgun was in the To Aru Kagaku no Railgun manga. But then again, that is starting to get into AU territory. I don't really know about Touma's fighting style with or without memories though. Let's face it, the only people that seriously kicked Touma's ass in Old Testament were Tsuchimikado (expert martial artist with a trained body), Kanzaki (expert martial artist with Saint body), and Acqua of the Back (experienced mercenary, probably also a master martial artist, technically also a Double Saint). ..... Yeah, are you people seeing a common trait here? These people curb-stomped our dear Kami-yan's ass because they were simply better at close-range combat than him and also had better trained bodies. Touma, on the other hand, is simply being thrown in battle after battle and he doesn't train at all (at least, not as far as I'm aware). There was a really early idea back in the beginning of this thread to give Touma martial arts skills on par with those people in Kung Fu Hustle (as in, people who can bend steel with their bare hands and catch bullets in seconds). Which brings me to a question that I want to ask all of your opinions on. Would the Imagine Breaker nullify ki/chi/qi? Technically, it's life energy being emitted by all living creatures, so I don't think that the Imagine Breaker would work if we're following the same logic of why it doesn't destroy ley lines or kill people upon contact. So Touma might have a chance of being able to learn ki and using it to enhance his body. Is this a valid way for Touma to get stronger or is this just my own nutty speculation? __________________

2013-09-04, 18:22	Link #4611
omega253 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2013	Damnit. Wait, wouldn't Touma just have to use more ki than the Imagine Breaker can nullify at one time? Kind of like what happened with Dragon's Breath and Innocentius. __________________

2013-09-04, 18:45	Link #4613
omega253 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2013	Once again, damnit. Ah well, I have a funny fic idea right now. This is not supposed to be treated as canon or serious at all The Imagine Breaker does something weird and Touma suddenly gets the blatant infatuation of every female around him. The ones who liked him before the phenomenon happened are trying to French him and get in his pants, the ones who didn't .... will be doing the same thing, just more subtle. Can Touma resist the temptation or will he finally accept the Kami-yan disease and reciprocate the affection? Like I said, this is not to be taken seriously in anyway. __________________

2013-09-04, 20:14	Link #4615
omega253 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2013	..... sigh I've lost my motivation to continue writing my next chapter.... Damnit. Anybody have any new fic ideas? I need something to keep my mind distracted. __________________

2013-09-04, 20:27	Link #4616
Ilidsor Angelerator Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Canada	You could write the next chapter of Touma's Busy Day for me I'm so damn busy right now. __________________

2013-09-04, 10:22	Link #4601
demino_hellsin That one guy Join Date: Nov 2011	Would it be wrong to say Touma with memories is a better fighter than Touma without memories?

2013-09-04, 14:29	Link #4602
Loremaster He who writes too much. Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: United Kingdom Age: 32	Demino@ I think that wouldn't be wrong to say. Because honestly, your memories and experiences are tied with who you are as a person. You see I have my own fanfiction for this series. It's focuses around an oc who is the 6th ranked level five. And he himself is dealing with memory loss. And I just finished a set of chapters which takes place back before he had lost his memories. And if you compared him from before he lost his memories to after then his fighting prowess is completely different. With his memories my oc remembers all the training and the experiences he learned from being out in the field. But since he has lost his memories, my oc is trying to learn his powers all over again. Basically if you lose your memories, then your experiences go along with it. I tire those two together and its your experiences in life is what forges who you are as a person. Either that being a great fighter or simply a coward.

2013-09-04, 14:46	Link #4603
allfictions Of Infinite Resignation Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Canada Age: 28	However, let's not forget that the Second Touma is probably even more experienced than the first now, since he fought Magicians, who operate on a whole new different set of laws altogether than ESPers. We have to take that into account, too.

2013-09-04, 14:51	Link #4604
Loremaster He who writes too much. Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: United Kingdom Age: 32	That is very true. And this only happened because he had engaged in constant battle on the magic side. I see that when it comes to close hand to hand combat, Touma is probably one of the best fighters. Though I'm pretty sure a certain double spy could still whoop his arse. But still I'm pretty sure its not wrong to say that the first Touma was still stronger. None of us truly know what that one had been through before he met Index.

2013-09-04, 14:57	Link #4605
allfictions Of Infinite Resignation Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Canada Age: 28	Well, for starters, it doesn't seem the First Touma had precognition...

2013-09-04, 15:25	Link #4607
Loremaster He who writes too much. Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: United Kingdom Age: 32	We can make a good assumption though that Touma one did have it. He blocked Mikoto Misaka's attack on the bridge and you have to be pretty clued in to even block her attacks in time. Lightning attacks aren't exactly slow. Though I heard in one version it was a railgun instead of a normal lighting arc attack? But that only proves it more.

2013-09-04, 17:59	Link #4609
demino_hellsin That one guy Join Date: Nov 2011	I think Touma 1 had the beginnings of precognition. After all, wasn't it during the battle with Kanzaki, he instinctively pulled back his right hand? To him it looked like a laser and something that could be negated. But it was described that he had just felt something wrong so he pulled back. Also, was it Touma 1 or Touma 2 that describes their fighting skill as, good for 1 on 1, okay for 1 on 2, but can't win in 1 on 3?

2013-09-04, 18:39	Link #4612
allfictions Of Infinite Resignation Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Canada Age: 28	And that could be a viable solution, that is, if Touma somehow found a way to produce a supernatural power inside of him and render it massive without IB getting in the way of the development, which seems kinda complicated. Basically, it would be like trying to create a pond in quicksands, hoping the soil doesn't absorb the water.

2013-09-04, 20:37	Link #4617
omega253 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2013	Ahahahahaha, no. Seriously, what I meant by losing motivation was, I feel like Shinji Ikari in one of his darker moments right now. How's that for unmotivated? __________________

2013-09-04, 20:40	Link #4618
Ilidsor Angelerator Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Canada	Yeah that's... that's pretty intense __________________

2013-09-04, 20:54	Link #4619
allfictions Of Infinite Resignation Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Canada Age: 28	So, I have an idea of my own. Extremely cliché. Maybe. And actually, it's more of a plot bunny since there are several ''plotholes'' in it, and some links are missing between some elements. So, a Toaru/Fate/stay night crossover. Yeah, I know... But I feel that every one of those crossovers, when it's not built on the (really poor) premise of ''Second Magic/Zeltretch's intervention, LOL!'', try really hard to do some sort of ''fusion fic'', where both the rules of the Nasuverse and the rules of the TAMNI Verse apply. While a valliant effort worthy of praise (seriously, I take my hat off to people trying), I think of it as being near impossible. So to spare myself some nasty headaches, I was thinking of bending (sorry, Nasu fans) the Nasuverse to the TAMNI Verse. A bit like how Mahou Senki: Lyrical Days did with the Nasuverse bending to the Nanoha Verse's rules. The premise: it's of course centered around Shirou as a character. Spoiler for Long introduction: The big fire of Fuyuki City still happens, albeit under slightly different circumstances. The Fourth Grail War took place, but its nature is changed. For starters, the sought after Grail was the Holy Grail, the calice that received the blood of Christ, and one of the Roman Catholic Church's Ten Holy Artifacts. It is an original magical artifact, not a replica or a spiritual item, like Curtana Original and Croce di Pietro. Anyway, the Fourth Grail War happens (probably under another name), but will have a different name, and there were no Servant or Master. It was basically a battle royale between Magicians to obtain the holy artifact. Kiritsugu participated, and had in his possession the magical artifact Avalon, the legendary sheath of King Arthur (didn't thnk of the circumstances just yet). Same end, many people die, Kiritsugu ends up destroying the Grail for one reason or the other, the fire kill Shirou's family, and Kiritsugu saves him with Avalon, and later adopts him. That's where things change. For starters, Kiritsugu decides to move to Shimabara, Japan. There, not only after a certain time does Shirou learn of magic, but he (and Kiritsugu too?) meets and befriends the Christian sect Amakusa-Style Remix of Church, especially one of the youngest member named Itsuwa, and the young Supreme Pontiff, the Saint Kanzaki Kaori. After Kiritsugu dies, he is taken in, and continues to further his knowledge of magic. Of course, he is still quite the unimpressive Magician, with low levels of mana, and only good in Reinforcement (extremely similar to the spell Scattered Grass of Itsuwa who uses the meaning of layers of a tree as their age to reinforce a weapon with many layers of resine) and Projection, but he has some practice with basic Amakusa-Style spells, and he is quite profficient in combat thanks to them. The fic would truly begin with the Orsola Aquinas Rescue Arc. With eventually a fight between Touma and Amakusa!Shirou. Just because it would be cool. After being defeated, Shirou quickly becomes friend with Touma due to their similar personnas and ideals, though Touma doesn't want to become a hero like Shirou does. Etc, etc. Arcs (where most of the time, Shirou is involved in Touma's adventures): Orsola Aquinas Rescue Arc Necessarius Special Entrance Exam Arc La Regina del Mare Adriatico Arc Document of Constantine Arc (where Shirou accompanies Itsuwa in her investigation in Avignon) Acqua of the Back Arc (Touma has 2 bodyguards this time. And Shirou Tracing Ascalon maybe) English Civil War Arc (Shirou Tracing EVERYTHING!!!) And probably a Shirou/Touma rematch down the road. Problems with writtig this fic: 1. Those called ''Type-Lunatics'', those Nasu fans who insist that fanworks in the Nasuverse need to follow the rules with absolute precision, when Nasu himself throws said rules out whenever they get in the way of the story. Frankly, this story would be so dyed in TAMNI flavour, I don't know if any fan would like it. 2. I have no explanation whatsoever for Shirou's Reality Marble, or heck, even Kiritsugu's abilities, that ties in with the Idol Theory. Seriously. 3. In my opinion, La Regina del Mare Adriatico Arc was not exactly an interesting arc, yet I would have to get through it before moving on to more interesting events. But frankly, one of the reasons I would like to (see that written)write it is a ridiculous one: ShirouxItsuwa pairing. You can throw the rocks at me now.