[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

But that scene takes place in a magical setting though. That scene could have been as what Ange perceived it as after seeing CotGW in a subjective setting, or as the fictional character Beatrice perceived. Beatrice could have been talking as the human that was born from the fictional Yasu theory, which may be the second layer of the story. The Yasu that Beato was based from on is fictional, but not necessarily magical. Hence why she is able to say that she is the human culprit. Ultimately Beatrice is fictional. Now I guarantee that this explanation would be viewed as utter garbage. And I'll admit Rosatrice has some holes here and there, but so does the Sayotrice theory, as far as I know. (I haven't re-read the whole thing yet to double check).

And why do I get the feeling that the hate for this theory is misguided? I get that some if not most of the Rosatrice believers may have been rude, and I can understand that people who are on the Sayotrice side would be offended yes, but it's not like the theory is attacking anyone.

Now I don't know if it was the Rosatrice or the Sayotrice side that were rude first, but in my honest opinion, this theory shouldn't be hated, but it is understandable that majority of fans hate those that were dicks, and they have the right to be so, but still the theory (Rosatrice or Sayotrice) shouldn't be viewed as garbage just because they don't agree with it. Can't we discuss this theory step by step rather without one of each party forcing facts and/or opinions down each other's throats? Like step by step go through the story, collect evidence for and against the theory (both Sayotrice and Rosatrice) and compare them? Because I think that if people just pick a scene that pops into their head, we run into the problem of making a messy theory, then one from the other party start acting like dicks either out of TL;DR or misunderstandings.

Hum... as I stand I don't hate Rosatrice. As I don't hate Battlertrice or Genjitrice or Kyrietrice or whatever else.
I'm interested in discussing new theories.

The problem I have with all this is a fundamental difference between Rosatrice and Sayotrice.

Ryukishi made Sayotrice the canon answer multiple times.

He told it in Ep 7, he told it in Answer of the golden witch, he told it over and over in ep 8 manga version, he told it in another interview again and I still hear people claiming he's trolling us.

Even if Ryukishi were to again claim Sayotrice is the answer and that no Rosatrice is invalid, he has no idea why one would think at it, at this point I don't expect Rosatrice fans to believe. They'll insist he's trolling us.

Now... Rosatrice. Has the new material ever once pushed forward the idea that Rosatrice can be an alternative answer? That he had thought to an alternative answer that's not Sayotrice?

Rosatrice is just an Au some readers came up with. Personally I think Ryukishi might even find interesting how fans came up with such alternate solution and he'll probably say 'well, if you like it more than MY solution feel free to go for it'. In Higurashi already he gave fans the go to make up their own solutions if they were unsatisfied with his own.

But ultimately it's as if one gifted you with a soccer ball thinking he'll encourage you to play soccer and you'll use it to play basketball.
It's not wrong per se, it's your free time and now it's your soccer ball and he can't force you to play soccer if you don't want it but really, his aim wasn't to push you to play basketball and if you want to play professional basketball you should really consider using another ball because the one you're using was intended for another type of sport.

So... I'm honestly confused by how you seem to consider Sayotrice and Rosatrice as having the same value and you seem to want to check if Rosatrice could be an intended answer.

We can compare them, it's interesting and I TOTALLY love AU, but ultimately Rosatrice isn't the intended solution and no better than "anyone else"-trice in terms of value.
Chosing the wrong solution over the official means rejecting the original message of Umineko, the original characterization.
At this point let's say Ryukishi screwed up and Umineko is no good and go for an Au version.
There's plenty of fandoms who ultimately reject canon because they think the author screwed up. To me it feels better than completely misunderstanding what the author was trying to say.

So it's not like I'm trying to pick a fight with you or to put you down because you like Rosatrice but I really can't understand why, after all this time, people seem to expect Rosatrice to be the right theory and that Ryukishi one day will confess that yes, Sayotrice was all a Red Herring and the real culprit is Rosa.

It's not like Ryukishi went once out of his way to make things look like it, on the contrary he pushed forward more and more the Sayotrice theory.

Originally Posted by Mali

Not to mention a mod delete the Rosatrice page on the wiki. I would rather read how Erika was going to solve the first 4 games with Natsuhi as a culprit?

Well, it's not like this forum can be accounted for this but I guess the problem is that if you make a page for one fan theory then you should make a page for every fan theory and wikia are usually a collection of canon informations and not a collection of speculations. Add to this that Rosatrice believers have still different theories on how Rosatrice work. The pages of the theories would end up being more than the pages of the canon info.

I think it would probably be better if the alternative Umineko theories had their own wikia. Which by the way I would be interested to read. There were in the past some clearly not canon answers that still were pretty awesome.
It's a pity Renall doesn't show around here anymore. I loved his idea about how to solve Ep 6 closed room and the "Yasu is actually just a random orphan" theory just to name a few.

LOL, Natsuhitrice by contrast is something mentioned in the canon, although as a wrong theory. Same as the Battler culprit theory. Therefore is

Originally Posted by Mali

A note to the messages: Ryukishi wrote the mystery with an uplifting and happy beginning just to crush the expections of his readers. The human Yasu is a looser in every world even if he/she had a headstart and the golden land is no save place at all....*insertsceneofKanonsflashbackinep6*

Hum... no, the intended message is rather different.
I seem to remember though you haven't read the manga yet and I agree the VN was more vague so I understand you might have gotten this impression but anyway, even assuming it was this one then how would the Rosatrice one be better?

Also, if you feel like knowing the message you can find translations of the manga scripts. They're well done and well deliver the point.

Originally Posted by Mali

What's wrong about being asked the same question?

LOL, my teacher would reply that you should have paid attention the first time the question was made but that's here.

Personally, as fans will have only a limited number of questions I'll prefer them not to waste them on something over which Ryukishi already answered. So even if they ask something I'm not interested about, as long as it's something new I'll still be happier than them asking the same old question.

Originally Posted by Mali

It would be more appreciating if referenced interviews are applied with a warning of spoilers. Even the interview "Say it in red!" (how ironic) gave this warning. Let's think of our fellow umineko readers who doesn't finished. There are no rules about it but it's fine to post it in spoiler tag, right?

The problem here is that this is the spoiler thread and the only one that doesn't have to forcefully keep spoilers under the spoiler tag.
Things end up placed under the spoiler tag just to shorten the length of the post.

Said this I've no problems placing interviews under the spoiler tag but if others don't feel like this... well it's actually their right not to use it.




On a sidenote I would be happier if fans were to ask Ryukishi questions about Battler and his life prior to him returning to Rokkenjima. How his mother died? His grandparents both died out of old age? What was keeping him SO BUSY?
Was he really like the VN presented him or his character is just the result of Sayo and Tohya's speculations? Ultimately did he care for Sayo?

If Sayo had tried not being so passive but had written him or went to him or... anything else really, would have things gone better?

And here there's an odd question but sometimes I wonder: is Lion's biological sex the same as Sayo or he's meant to be the exact opposite of Beatrice and therefore the fact he's male (opposite to Beatrice who is female) is not meant to imply Sayo was genetically male?

Also questions over the meta would be apprecciated, although since the question 'who was Featherine's deceased friend?' might refers to Ryukishi's deceased friend actually I'm not sure it would be all right to ask it.

[Mali]

@Levani: It's ok. TAt least it isn't an ad hominem.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Well, it's not like this forum can be accounted for this but I guess the problem is that if you make a page for one fan theory then you should make a page for every fan theory and wikia are usually a collection of canon informations and not a collection of speculations. Add to this that Rosatrice believers have still different theories on how Rosatrice work. The pages of the theories would end up being more than the pages of the canon info.

I think it would probably be better if the alternative Umineko theories had their own wikia. Which by the way I would be interested to read. There were in the past some clearly not canon answers that still were pretty awesome.
It's a pity Renall doesn't show around here anymore. I loved his idea about how to solve Ep 6 closed room and the "Yasu is actually just a random orphan" theory just to name a few.

It's fine if users can write a history of different theories in the wikia. Some game wikis have well documented theories on some pages. So why not both?

Someone created for every game a "truth" page. I read Legend and Turn but as I saw the edit history I missed the notes of the editors. Please editors, document your changes or use the talk page.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Hum... no, the intended message is rather different.
I seem to remember though you haven't read the manga yet and I agree the VN was more vague so I understand you might have gotten this impression but anyway, even assuming it was this one then how would the Rosatrice one be better?

Hu? It was my opinion because of the author's writing style and his statement in Higurashi about which side (good/evil) has to bring sacrifices. Sorry!

Originally Posted by jjblue1

LOL, my teacher would reply that you should have paid attention the first time the question was made but that's here.

Personally, as fans will have only a limited number of questions I'll prefer them not to waste them on something over which Ryukishi already answered. So even if they ask something I'm not interested about, as long as it's something new I'll still be happier than them asking the same old question.

I would like to ask whether he replied to fans. I knew he gave interviews...

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Mali

It's fine if users can write a history of different theories in the wikia. Some game wikis have well documented theories on some pages. So why not both?

If there is a separate theory section, like there is on one big Japanese wiki that is all fine and dandy, but it has to be properly seperated as to not confuse people who are just searching for information.
Many people writing on different theories, and especially on Rosatrice, have this tendency of not mentioning that this is a fan-theory that (by latest information) is not canon anymore.

Hu? It was my opinion because of the author's writing style and his statement in Higurashi about which side (good/evil) has to bring sacrifices. Sorry!

First of all, you shouldn't mix statements about the structure of Higurashi with Umineko. They are two fairly different stories, and I would even go so far as to say that Ryukishi changed his mind about a lot of things between the end of both works.
Also, this is not an attack on you, what jjblue wanted to say was, because EP8 as a VN was really too vague in its message, and you having not read the really superior manga adaptation yet, that you might have a different impression of what the message actually was.

You say that "The human Yasu is a looser in every world even if he/she had a headstart," but that points to a very different way to view the story. It was never about winning the game, it was about understanding and learning from the past instead of blindly falling into patterns. It was about how inactivity can kill us way before our body dies.
Sayo didn't lose because she failed to win her game, she lost because of not being able to be proactive.

I would like to ask whether he replied to fans. I knew he gave interviews...

Well, some of the interviewers were fans, so I don't know what more you need.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Mali

It's fine if users can write a history of different theories in the wikia. Some game wikis have well documented theories on some pages. So why not both?

Someone created for every game a "truth" page. I read Legend and Turn but as I saw the edit history I missed the notes of the editors. Please editors, document your changes or use the talk page.

Well, I don't know the wiki you're talking about and, as I said, I'll be interested in reading theories but in truth the logic between a wikia is that it is a source of informations, not of speculations and that everything should be documented.
Theories theoretically shouldn't be in a wikia because they fall in the speculation branch. That is unless your wikia decide to provide info on the fandom. In this case theories produced by the fandom, as long as they can be documented, can fit in the wikia as they constitute legittimate information over the fandom.

Many wikia though don't care about what the fandom produces.

I hadn't noticed the truth page in the Umineko wikia so I went to check it (LOL, I was curious to see if it matched with my truth posts on Tumblr).

In itself I think you're right in complaining about it because it mixes canon truth with speculations and passed the speculations for canon.

Let's take this part:

Before the murders: Sayo, dressed as Kanon, played the part of Beatrice and gave Maria the letter. As Maria was used to Beatrice "possessing" servants like Kanon and Shannon, she accepted her as Beatrice. Sayo tempted Eva and Hideyoshi with the gold she inherited from Kinzo to help her in her murder game. Eva and Hideyoshi were not aware that Kanon planed to kill them for real (as seen in how Eva insisted to Battler that the victims had "makeup scribbled on their faces" instead of blood).

It's canon that it was Sayo who played Beatrice's role. It's not canon that she did it while dressed as Kanon. It's possible as Sayo might have done it just before going to call the cousins... but it's also possible Sayo did it much sooner and while dressed as Shannon. We don't know and it's really not important how she was dressed. What's important is Maria accepted her as Beatrice.

Also we don't know if Sayo bribed Eva and Hideyoshi with the gold or with the promise of headship or both. What's canon is that she bribed them in such a way they thought their financial problems would be resolved.

The first twilight: Kanon invited Krauss, Rosa, Gohda, Kyrie and Rudolf into the dining hall, where he shot the five of them. With the help of Genji, he moved the corpses into the rose garden storage room and locked them in. He notified Hideyoshi and Eva to pretend that Shannon's body was there when it actually wasn't, to fake a death for his other persona Shannon. Kanon then checked Natsuhi's room and saw the scorpion charm hanging inside. To create an idea of a "witch who cannot touch scorpion charms", he closed the door again and splashed red paint on the door of Natsuhi's room to scare her.

Again, who says it was Kanon who invited them? They could have been invited by Shannon (more likely as she returned to the mansion as Shannon) or by Genji... or be there already for all we know as they have been discussing business there in more than one episode (making this an even more likely possibility). Also it is canon that Natsuhi was supposed to be one of the victims therefore her room was checked either prior to decide that Shannon would 'die' or prior to decide that Gohda would die.

And the same goes on for the other truths.

So okay, they added speculations to their truth pages messing up here and there as some speculations are likely wrong which makes me think they really need to correct them.

But I've no idea if people who edit the wiki read this forum. If they do I would really like to recommend to change their truth pages. A wiki which sells speculations as the Truth is really a poor wiki. If you don't have canon info on how things exactly went just admit it and be done.

Originally Posted by Mali

I would like to ask whether he replied to fans. I knew he gave interviews...

Technically interviews are replies to fans, even if fans might not get to make their questions directly. Many of his interviews though were made with KEIYA who's also one of his fans. He also replied to fans' questions on Twitter... and I think at the convention he's supposed to reply to fans?

Also he probably had replied to fans at the Japanese conventions and maybe even when they wrote him letters but as far as I know we've no info on what was said in those situations...

[Inbuiltx9]

Some minor things I still wanted to mention. I continue the last post again:

Spoiler for meta-world:

1.The fragments are Battler’s (not Touya’s) memory-fragments, like the jar in ep 3:
http://www.mangareader.net/958-38180...chapter-1.html
he “broke”. When you fall into the sea of oblivion, that’s (metaphorically) what happens, as it was described in the context with Ange

2.as it is said there, his fate is sealed with this, and the “jar” can only be fixed temporarily, that’s why he “breaks” yet again in the new world

3.the meta is probably true fantasy, though it can also be that absolutely everything is just happening in Battlers head, including Anges existence. Still, episode 6 with the fight over the closed room, is a fight that touches reality:
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...den-witch/19/4
This really sounds like they are trying to get to another ending, where Battler is saved by someone from his family and doesn’t end up in the locked room

4.Anyways, as mentioned in Eva’s puzzle in ep 8, the meta is the end of the world, and Beatos magic consists in setting everything to zero again. Meaning that everything that happened in the locked room between Battler and Beato is rendered to null (lyrics VII: “momentarily, eternally? wander between dream and reality”). That’s what was promised when the doors to the Golden Land will open. And that’s why Battler and Beato can leave the island on the third day in 1986, even though Battler spent years in the locked room. Here:
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...en-witch/24/64
Beato refers to exactly that, that the clock was set back to 1000 years into the past (again, it can also be Battlers illusion if one doesn’t want to accept that its fantasy).

The meta is a world frozen in time, where you can influence moves that were already made in the future. This is what ep 6 refers to. The two days are repeated over and over again. The way I see it (until now) is that through the games/the meta, they can replace the truth of the world with another truth. That’s why Beato “thinks” in red at the end of ep 4, that Battler should kill her, and that if he doesn’t do that, he will die (die=fall into hell).

5.http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...den-witch/4/27
Here Erika even refers to the fact that Battler is dreaming everything, and that Beato is his delusion. In ep 8, where they reveal almost everything, Battler also says this:
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...den-witch/2/40
6.by accepting the red truth Battler was told before falling to hell in prime (Rudolf and Kyrie being killing everyone, that magic doesn’t exist and that there is no golden land where his family lives), and thereby accepting the story about Rudolf and Kyrie shown in ep 7 tea party, the truth of the world was distorted - and that’s the world Ange lives in now. The real truth doesn’t exist anymore, as Erika mentions in ep 6, it was replaced by another one, because Battler gave up on the truth. At the very end of ep 8, there is yet another truth created, one where Battler and Beato leave the island on the third day
7.in this new world, Battlers falls once again to the sea of oblivion, and as Touya he is once again tied to a chair (when he is older). Since running was attlers one hobby where he tried to stand out, him standing up from the wheel-chair is pretty important. Thats the moment that Battler wakes up again into the meta – it’s the same as in the world before, where he was tied to the chair, but in the meta, he could walk around freely
8.in ep 8:
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...den-witch/1/37
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...den-witch/1/38
this scene refers to what happens in the end, in the VN they even talk about how Battler will sleep in again tomorrow and how Maria and Ange will wake him up together next time. Battler is “first” in the new world, Maria arrives later with a bit of a headstart - she already arrives at the beginning of ep 8 - and Ange comes in last, she reaches the new world at the end of ep 8, a world where she doesn’t jump from the skyscraper.
9.random info to show Ikuko is Marias piece: Ikuko is wearing an emerald, the same stone Maria had in her amulet to calm down the heart. Ikukos question about this being Battlers garden can be answered with a “yes” now.
10.since the roses are stories, its pretty clear why the rose is so important for Maria. In the 1st episode, it is said that Marias rose should be there, but it cant be seen. The way I see it, it’s the story about everyone living happily in the Golden Land. We know Battler believed for a long time that his family was living there until he learned with the red that this was all only his wishful thinking. That way he destroyed the Golden Land, because happiness is only granted when everyone believes in it, and Marias rose is withered and later on cant be seen. The door to the Golden Land is opened once Battler realizes that the Golden Truth can be stronger than the red one.
11.the fantasy-world cant be seen without love anyways, because that’s the one element of the world. Since battler and beato had some sort of relationship before (though she was fooling him there), he also cant see Beato anymore once he gives up on his belief. But this “without love, it cant be seen”, imo, can also be formulated as in Akiko Shikata’s song: “if you aren’t aware of the love, you cant reach the real secret”, meaning: if you don’t realize that the games are Beatos love letters and that she reveals her feelings there, you cant reach the truth
12.Beato wants to apologize and to see Battler smile again, (she says so as Kinzo). At the end of ep 6 he is resurrected (“congrats on your resurrection”), and here is the manga scene:
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...en-witch/24/55
13.Erika vs. Beato is continuing the trial of love (two personalities of Sayo fighting against each other), and Beatos “I know you want to accept my challenge, because you are … THE DETECTIVE”, should of course be read as “because you are my antagonist, my opposite, my other half”
14.the 6th episode, that the chain must be set, is about Battler getting out of his mind-hell. He opened the doors to hell and now he cant get out if there isn’t someone who will set the chains from the inside. Battler went to hell on his own, he created this “closed room” himself because he couldn’t face reality, that’s why this scene
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...en-witch/23/45
does seem to be pretty weird, if you only read it with the “believing” eye, but not if you realize whats really going on.
Same as that:
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...en-witch/23/48
15.As I mentioned before, in prime in the locked room, Battler and Sayo were “playing” with Sayos message-bottles where Battler had to solve it. At some point, Beato faked to have changed, and the games even became a bit fun between them. Battler then filled in the gaps that Sayo left in the story for him. So they created the game together – and gave it to each other as birthday presents. That’s why theres the doble date 0715 &1129. And that’s what Kanon refers to in this scene:
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...en-witch/23/51
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...en-witch/23/52
We also see Beato reacting for once! In ep 5 when Battlers says that it is “our” game, that he wants to take back from Lambda and Bern. Later Erika-Beato ripped it apart, that’s why “Sakutarou” becomes an inkstain in the VN when “Rosa” destroys him in ep 4.
16. Beato for Battler in prime has two sources – one is the Beato that fakes to fall in love with him and one is his delusion following this, that he sees from then on whenever he needs her to “save” him from her other half. This Beato-illusion has a vessel and this vessel is very likely a doll. The siesta-sisters are always “sewing” her and “George” embraces “Shannon” “like a doll” in ep 2. Battler also gives a doll to Ange in ep 8 and in ep 7, Jessica also finds such a doll sitting on a table. (With the “she pretends to love him”, I want to say that she pretends to be nice and to understand him. She really does love him, but in a more twisted way. The way their relationship works is shown in the beginning of ep 2, where George=Sayo and Shannon=Battler, with “George” saying something like he always wondered why everyone made fun of him when he was younger, but that now he realized that its so much fun to toy around with others. Sayo only realizes that she wasn’t really “pretending” anymore when its already too late).
17. What I wanted to mention, even though I said I don’t want to explain the metaphors, is the faces of Kyrie and Rudolf in ep 1. This is obviously referring to the time where Battler learns with the red that Rudolf and Kyrie are the murderers and where he “sees” the scenes where both of them murder everyone. Both of them are faceless after that, and Battler wonders if he has to remember them like that for the rest of his life. Also all his family members in ep 1 tell him over and over again to not look, and he himself was wishing there would have been someone to hold him back. (In this context I want to mention that Battler “saw” a kind of meta in prime already before entering his mind-hell, first of all, Beato let him into mariage sorciere, and then a bit of the “green fairy” and other stuff Beato gives him plus his eye-problems seem to play a role as well for him to be able to see the fantasy-world)
18.his headaches result from Sayo knocking him out in prime, but they are also an indication of a world that was patched together like the ep 7-gameboard. Cause Battler himself realized, that the ep 7-tea-party-truth doesn’t fit together with the prime-truth (“it doesn’t make sense”), but since it is replacing it, the two truths are mixed together, and thinking about this is causing someone to have a head-ache.
19.Battlers fault in prime probably lies in the fact that he walked around in the mansion on his own, even though everyone told him that it was dangerous to be alone

20. Not yet sure about this one, but ep 6 is showing how Beato was created. I do believe that, if we look at ep 6 in the metaphorical way, this scene:
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...en-witch/22/40
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...en-witch/22/41
is the point where Beato created her plan how to resurrect Battler/get him out of hell. And the most terrible of all the closed rooms is, imo, the chained-locked-room we got to know in ep 3. And that would be the “trick” she remembers in the end. After all, what Beato does in the meta is creating one giant locked room=the meta, that includes all the different memory-fragments with Battlers knowledge of the closed room-games they played before. That’s how Beato is “resurrected”, the knowledge is what she got from Featherines archives (for the second time maybe?). But with this, Im still unsure.

There is so much more that could be said. Like I mentioned, there are really many many hints. For example
-the way Natsuhi wakes up - there being no difference between sleeping and being awake, or
-the scene where Battler remembers Rudolf in ep 1, where Rudolf tells him witches and magic is just something people who have a lot of free time and a hole in their heart invent for their own sake, and Battler’s thought following that where he thinks that he was deceived the whole time...Or
-the scene where Battler mentions that he is still immature even though he has to be 24? 30? 38? years old already, or
-what Okonogi says to Amakusa at the end of ep 6,
- what Marias amulets mean, …Also
-Battlers boredom,
-Natsuhi’s duel with Beatrice in ep 1 (Natsuhi is often in the role for the nice beato) and the following “suicide”,
-the “moon project” in ep 5 with Sonozaki (?) being a liar as well who deceives Krauss…
There are so many hints. And I don’t want to explain all of them. But I still wanted to say this stuff about the meta, that was on my mind for a long time already, cause I thought that’s one of the most important points. I stop now

With the last paragraph, I wanted to relativize my statement from last time a bit about this being the only truth. Erika says something important in ep 6 – that the truth of the world is not only one. I guess that’s how we have to see it – the Touya/Ikuko-reality is one form of the truth, the fantasy-/mind-hell-meta is the second one. But I still stick to the fact that locked-room-Prime is the original world, and that this is the truth hidden behind everything. Not once was anything of it explicitly mentioned (apart from sentences like Battlers “I cant die” in ep 6, or some other minor things), everything is well hidden, but all the scenes and all the inconsistencies in the stories now make sense.

[Mali]

@haguruma

If there is a separate theory section, like there is on one big Japanese wiki that is all fine and dandy, but it has to be properly seperated as to not confuse people who are just searching for information.
Many people writing on different theories, and especially on Rosatrice, have this tendency of not mentioning that this is a fan-theory that (by latest information) is not canon anymore.

First of all, you shouldn't mix statements about the structure of Higurashi with Umineko. They are two fairly different stories, and I would even go so far as to say that Ryukishi changed his mind about a lot of things between the end of both works.
Also, this is not an attack on you, what jjblue wanted to say was, because EP8 as a VN was really too vague in its message, and you having not read the really superior manga adaptation yet, that you might have a different impression of what the message actually was.

You say that "The human Yasu is a looser in every world even if he/she had a headstart," but that points to a very different way to view the story. It was never about winning the game, it was about understanding and learning from the past instead of blindly falling into patterns. It was about how inactivity can kill us way before our body dies.
Sayo didn't lose because she failed to win her game, she lost because of not being able to be proactive.

Thank you for this example...translators produce some very funny results But hey I didn't even know umineko has it's own Japanese wiki!
About my statement: As you could think I actually thought and wrote about the "Staffroom" in Matsuribayashi. I implied this could apllied to the world of Umineko as well. Because that wasn't the case I 'm sorry about that.

@jjblue

Well, I don't know the wiki you're talking about

Game wikis with a huge fan base like Zelda have specualtions I think.


I didn't know about the fan-interview. I'm not that die-hard follower so I missed that.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

With the last paragraph, I wanted to relativize my statement from last time a bit about this being the only truth. Erika says something important in ep 6 – that the truth of the world is not only one. I guess that’s how we have to see it – the Touya/Ikuko-reality is one form of the truth, the fantasy-/mind-hell-meta is the second one. But I still stick to the fact that locked-room-Prime is the original world, and that this is the truth hidden behind everything. Not once was anything of it explicitly mentioned (apart from sentences like Battlers “I cant die” in ep 6, or some other minor things), everything is well hidden, but all the scenes and all the inconsistencies in the stories now make sense.

You're kind of right with forms of truth, but I think there are 4 or even 5.

Spoiler for Forms of truth I assume:

1. Truth of games written by Sayo/GM Beatrice (threw bottle messages in the ocean before October 4th)
   • Legend
   • Turn (is consistent with George's love letters, testimonies of Jessica's friends and Maria's diary)
   • Land (unreleased)
2. Truth of games written by Toya Hachijo (contained vague memory parts, parting gifts for Beatrice or Ange)
   • End
   • Dawn
   • Twilight
3. Truth of games written by Ikuko Hachijo (oh look Ange appeared in them, real Tohja read them)
   • Banquet
   • Alliance
   • Requiem
4. Truth of Eva's diary
   • possible-Tea Party of Requiem
   • possible-Bern's game in Twilight if Maria and George were lying (unimportant if Ange were part of this story)
   • possible-Banquet with Battler not being shot to death
   • possible-End
   • possible-Dawn
   • certain-of course the diary itself
5. Truth of others
   • unknown forgeries
   • Requiem- Lion
   • unknown forgeries
   • Maria's version of Legend

[LaputanAngel]

So just curious of people's opinion on a theory I've had for some time. The theory essentially states that everything in the VN (and manga) that happens after Ange kills herself in ep 8 is fake and just a forgery of Aurora.

The reason why the Red Truth was ineffective in Bern's final encounter with Ange is that those events were simply part of a forgery, and the truth is irrelevant in such context. It is the exact opposite of the Will vs Bern fight at the end of Ep. 7. Will couldn't hurt Bern because the rules of what makes a good mystery are irrelevant when it comes to reality. Here, the truth was irrelevant in the event of a forgery.

Ange made a deal with Bern that upon either finding out the truth or meeting Battler that she would die. Obviously the later was impossible since Battler was dead. As for finding out the truth, this is why she fell to pieces at the end of Ep. 7. She was given the truth. She only came back in Ep. 8 thanks to being convinced that that wasn't actually the truth. Unfortunately, upon reading Eva's diary, which had already been confirmed in Red to be the irrefutable truth, she died permanently.

At this point, the story loses its trustworthy narrator, and everything from that point on is made up. Think of it as Aurora being kind to Ange for being her temporary Miko. This is why Aurora was able to stop time in her fight with Lambdadelta. Because it was a story (Which she admits to writing), she could do whatever she wanted.

It is unknown whether Bern experience all this anyways (much the same way Hanyuu made Rika experience killing her mother in Higurashi Rei).


Point is, the red truth includes a number of lines that proves everything after Ange's death, including BOTH the Trick and Magic endings to be false.


Ep. 2 states that "When the seagulls cry, none will be left alive" (aka when game ends and you get to title screen)
Bern confirms that Battler and company are dead.
Bern confirms that Ange will not survive the fall.
It was also revealed using the Red Truth in Vol. 8 of the manga that Ange is dead. Chapter 24, page 42 states "Ushiromiya Ange Definitely Dies in 1998" -takes place after she jumps off building

Bern did not lie when she said in Red that the game would not have a happy ending. Everyone died and Ange went to hell.


The reason Ange turns to scraps of meat in Ep 4, 7, and 8 is because that is what is left of her after hitting the pavement.

This theory would also explain other issues with the story. These include Lambadelta's radical change of character between Ep. 1-7 and 8. The reason for the change: it was a forgery so anything goes.

The theory also explains why Ange's timeline is so messed up.
(Jump off building, go to island, die. Meet Ikuku. Jump off building. End up conducting killing spree on boat in trick ending or change names and become a writer in magic)

The reason all these things were possible is that nothing in the future occurs after Ange makes her deal with Bern besides falling to her death. Not saying the events were strictly "in her head", but they seem to be more a creation of the metaverse than actual realities.

[JotaDe]

Hi there.

Yesterday I was remembering good times watching on YT the end of the visual novel and read in the comments that the truth had been exposed in the manga. I started searching on the net and, although I found some pages to read it, I didn't find information about when was the manga going to end or if there is something more to come. I have just read the part of the "Confessions", but I will like to know more about what is going to happen with the manga. I dont have the time to read it all now (studies and other things) but I would love to when I have free time. Is there any more changes on the manga a part from EP 8?

Sorry if this isnt the place to talk about this, but after searching more and more, this was the only forum about Umineko that was still alive and I don't know where to find more information about all this.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by LaputanAngel

Bern confirms that Ange will not survive the fall.
It was also revealed using the Red Truth in Vol. 8 of the manga that Ange is dead. Chapter 24, page 42 states "Ushiromiya Ange Definitely Dies in 1998" -takes place after she jumps off building

Well, actually that is a point where Bern's trickery is at work again. She confirms in Red that Ushiromiya Ange definitely dies in 1998, but she merely makes a snide remark at the bodyguards efforts, saying that something as frail as a safety net would never save a human, swearing as the Witch of Miracles that such a miracle is unlikely to occur. Still she keeps reminding us that even a "small pebble" like Battler or Ange could bring her gears to grinding halt and bring about a miracle.

The theory also explains why Ange's timeline is so messed up.
(Jump off building, go to island, die. Meet Ikuku. Jump off building. End up conducting killing spree on boat in trick ending or change names and become a writer in magic)

It's not really messed up, it's more like there being several different theories about Ange's fate as well. She is just as much a catbox as Rokkenjima.
Ange's story in EP4 is that of her going on her quest to find the truth, interviewing other people connected to the events and finally ending up on Rokkenjima where she is killed by Amakusa alongside Kasumi's extremist group.
Her story in EP6 is that of her meeting with Hachijô, finding out more about the meaning of forgeries and getting hints towards the true identity of Beatrice, but she still ends up going to Rokkenjima and is likely killed.
Her story in EP7 is that she went insane after hearing the truth of her parents, probably implying that the mere jump already killed Ange.
And EP8 implies 4 different pathes being possible: Ange dying by jumping, Ange dying by going the island without realizing the impact she has on her surroundings, Ange realizing the plan to murder her and taking revenge on the world, and finally Ange deciding to let Ushiromiya Ange die and graduating from an existence she herself said to be already dead for years.

I wouldn't put the theory completely aside, since it is a question of perspective when it comes to reading Umineko. If you see it as a tale written by somebody about the Ushiromiyas then your idea can likely be true, if you see it as a tale depicting the struggle of Battler it's also possible....but I see it largely also as a depiction of Ange's struggle, and that story loses a lot if Ange's final decision is not an actual but a fictional one.

EDIT

Originally Posted by JotaDe

I didn't find information about when was the manga going to end or if there is something more to come. I have just read the part of the "Confessions", but I will like to know more about what is going to happen with the manga. I dont have the time to read it all now (studies and other things) but I would love to when I have free time. Is there any more changes on the manga a part from EP 8?

The manga is probably going to end next month (we will know a little more next Friday) and the final two volumes of EP8 will be released simultaneously in August. It is mainly EP8 which was largely editet for the manga to reveal the whole truth, though former Episodes got tiny make overs here and there (nothing big though).
The biggest changes can be found in EP8:
- Large additions to Ange's characterization and events sorrounding her
- Much more focus on the actual deconstruction of Beatrice's catbox during Erika's attack on the Golden Land (she solves EP5 and large parts of 6, her goats solve many of the locked rooms in the first 4 Episodes).
- More character development both during the Halloween party and after Ange rejoins the group in the Golden Land
- Confession of the Golden Witch, detailing the mindset of the culprit
- An editet version of the battle against Bern in the chamber of the key, going into more details regarding Ange's motivation
- Many small script-additions to make matters clearer

[LaputanAngel]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Well, actually that is a point where Bern's trickery is at work again. She confirms in Red that Ushiromiya Ange definitely dies in 1998, but she merely makes a snide remark at the bodyguards efforts, saying that something as frail as a safety net would never save a human, swearing as the Witch of Miracles that such a miracle is unlikely to occur. Still she keeps reminding us that even a "small pebble" like Battler or Ange could bring her gears to grinding halt and bring about a miracle.

Trickery can at most act as a play on words. It cannot directly oppose the truth.

Bern states, using the Red Truth, that Ange definitely dies in 1998. Even if you attempt the Kanon/Shannon personality trick here, and claim that Ange identified herself as something else, it doesn't work here.

As shown in the magic ending, even though Ange changed her name, she still identifies herself as Ange (Unlike Battler who identifies as Tohya).

As such, Ange did die, in one fashion or another, in 1998. The most logical of these is that she died when falling off the building in Ep. 8.

Originally Posted by haguruma

It's not really messed up, it's more like there being several different theories about Ange's fate as well. She is just as much a catbox as Rokkenjima.
Ange's story in EP4 is that of her going on her quest to find the truth, interviewing other people connected to the events and finally ending up on Rokkenjima where she is killed by Amakusa alongside Kasumi's extremist group.
Her story in EP6 is that of her meeting with Hachijô, finding out more about the meaning of forgeries and getting hints towards the true identity of Beatrice, but she still ends up going to Rokkenjima and is likely killed.
Her story in EP7 is that she went insane after hearing the truth of her parents, probably implying that the mere jump already killed Ange.
And EP8 implies 4 different pathes being possible: Ange dying by jumping, Ange dying by going the island without realizing the impact she has on her surroundings, Ange realizing the plan to murder her and taking revenge on the world, and finally Ange deciding to let Ushiromiya Ange die and graduating from an existence she herself said to be already dead for years.

Even if the "future" is a catbox, Ange does have a very definite end. She certainly cannot die twice. In other words, her jumping off the building and dying cannot occur in the same timeline as her getting killed on the island. Likewise, her killing Amakusa cannot occur in the same timeline as her dying on the island.

Of the possible endings, her dying upon jumping off the building makes the most sense logically and according the the Meta world. Even though people like to say that Bern is just trying to trick people at every step, I'm not sure this is actually true. She is the closest ally we have to figuring it out. She definitely comes the closest out of Umineko's cast of characters to revealing the truth behind the story.

Battler: Openly lied about what happened on island in Ep. 8
Clair: Severely distorted events or left out important chunks of information
Beatirce: forgeries

The one exception to this is Confessions in the manga.

As for Bern, she showed us what was a pretty accurate portrayal of the murders in ep. 7. As ep. 8 of the manga confirms, there was no GM for that game, and it was the truth. Because of this, I believe Bern's statement that Ange could not survive that fall and her Red Truth that "Ushiromiya Ange dies in 1998"

Originally Posted by haguruma

I wouldn't put the theory completely aside, since it is a question of perspective when it comes to reading Umineko. If you see it as a tale written by somebody about the Ushiromiyas then your idea can likely be true, if you see it as a tale depicting the struggle of Battler it's also possible....but I see it largely also as a depiction of Ange's struggle, and that story loses a lot if Ange's final decision is not an actual but a fictional one.

I agree that a lot of Umineko deals with Ange's struggles. That said, a lot of Umineko also deals with things not working out as expected.

1. Sayo planned countless means of killing everyone and one possibility where she didn't kill anyone. In the manga, it confirms in Ep. 8 that it was her desire that nobody would die that night. As we know though, even though her "miracle" possibility occurred, that being that she didn't kill anyone, everyone died anyways.

2. Much of the novel (ep. 1-7) deals with the rules of mystery. Different rules are constantly shoved down the readers' and characters' throats about what can and cannot happen. However, as shown in ep. 7 when Will fights Bern, these rules are pointless. Because reality isn't governed by the rules of fiction, the discussion was irrelevant and Will was brutally defeated.

3. Ange gives up everything for the possibility to either meet her family or learn the truth. She wanted more than anything for her parents not to be the killers. She accepted the Eva-culprit theory, ruined her ties with the only family she had, and ultimately threw herself off a building. End result: her parents were the culprits (as confirmed in game and manga) and she had ruined her own life for nothing.

As I see it, Ange's tragedy is very much in line with the rest of the novel.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by LaputanAngel

Trickery can at most act as a play on words. It cannot directly oppose the truth.

Bern states, using the Red Truth, that Ange definitely dies in 1998. Even if you attempt the Kanon/Shannon personality trick here, and claim that Ange identified herself as something else, it doesn't work here.

As shown in the magic ending, even though Ange changed her name, she still identifies herself as Ange (Unlike Battler who identifies as Tohya).

As such, Ange did die, in one fashion or another, in 1998. The most logical of these is that she died when falling off the building in Ep. 8.

Death in Umineko doesn't necessarily means death of the flesh.
Ange aknowledges herself as ANGE-Beatrice but not anymore as Ushiromiya Ange.
Both are called Ange but in Japanese Ange is written differently in ANGE-Beatrice compared to Ushiromya Ange.
(English translations try to deliver it by using capital letters but to us it just doesn't work the same).
Add to this that since Ushiromiya Ange disappeared, not only after 7 years she would be declared to be dead but Okonogi himself might have arranged so that she would be assumed to be dead in 1998 as she wanted to erase that identity.

We also learn in Umineko that since death doesn't mean death of the flesh, characters can be resurrected/revived in special conditions. Likely meeting Battler again was a trigger for Ushiromiya Ange's temporal resurrection and in her eyes Tohya was a resurrected Battler (though Tohya likely hardly felt that way). Ultimately though Ange let Ushiromiya Ange and Battler go and she and her brother go back on being Yukari and Tohya.

Originally Posted by LaputanAngel

Even if the "future" is a catbox, Ange does have a very definite end. She certainly cannot die twice. In other words, her jumping off the building and dying cannot occur in the same timeline as her getting killed on the island. Likewise, her killing Amakusa cannot occur in the same timeline as her dying on the island.

Of the possible endings, her dying upon jumping off the building makes the most sense logically and according the the Meta world. Even though people like to say that Bern is just trying to trick people at every step, I'm not sure this is actually true. She is the closest ally we have to figuring it out. She definitely comes the closest out of Umineko's cast of characters to revealing the truth behind the story.

Battler: Openly lied about what happened on island in Ep. 8
Clair: Severely distorted events or left out important chunks of information
Beatirce: forgeries

The one exception to this is Confessions in the manga.

As for Bern, she showed us what was a pretty accurate portrayal of the murders in ep. 7. As ep. 8 of the manga confirms, there was no GM for that game, and it was the truth. Because of this, I believe Bern's statement that Ange could not survive that fall and her Red Truth that "Ushiromiya Ange dies in 1998"

I wouldn't say Bern showed us an accurate portrayal. Ep 7 shows us merely Ange learning the truth in Eva's diary at which were added the worst speculations possible carefully depicting Rudolf and Kyrie as monsters who've fun killing people. Whose speculations might have been in Eva's diary as a way to fill in the things she didn't saw happening.

Bern doesn't show us an accurate portrayal. She's not the one revealing this tale, it's Clair the one doing it, Clair here being probably the personification of the diary (previously she likely was the personification of Confession).

What Bern will show us is the game in Ep 8, which she created, which is clearly a forgery and which has the worst outcome possible for Ange as well as a completely OC Battler.

What Bern showed us in Ep 7 Teaparty was Ushiromiya Lion's death, which didn't happen because Lion's world never came to be and Lion's world is actually just Yasu's fantasy.

Bern's game in Ep 7 isn't really a game, is just a setting with Will merely checking his theories and Confession being read by Clair, although in an embellished manner.

Lastly Ep 8 manga version clarified that Ep 8 ending can be considered sad or happy just the same because actually that's up to the reader's interpretation.

Ultimately Ange's family never went back home and her parents were involved in the murders. Battler survived but he doesn't acknowledge himself as Battler anymore and almost killed himself when he started remembering something. He doesn't really want to hang around Yukari/Ange and meets her out of a sense of obligation. Sayo won't get saved, she died in 1986, possibly by suicide. Ange will face many trials on her own and, even though in the end she has success as a writer, she's alone. All this can do for a sad ending.

But on the flip side, Ange grew and learnt to face the truth. She lived her life the best she could. Although Battler doesn't acknowledge himself as Battler anymore, he survived and still tried to meet her if only to give her some peace of mind and in return she probably managed to give him some peace of mind.
Sayo will be remembered and, even though she couldn't know this, Battler cared for her. Ange managed to understand everyone and accept them. All this can do for a happy ending.

But it's up to you to decide that the sad things outweight the happy things or not.

When Bern talk about the safety net not being enough to save Ange she's likely being metaphorical. That type of safety nets is purposely done to save people, if they're useless they wouldn't use it.

Who's not saving Ange is the guards, who can't avoid Ange from being hurt. Who's not saving Ange is Eva, as just hiding the truth isn't enough to spare her from harm.
Who's not saving Ange is pushing the blame on Eva as this also isn't enough to protect her.
Ange has reached a psychological breaking point, a point in which she can't continue to go on like that or it'll destroy her.
As Bern said she didn't have the resolve to stand tall against the truth, she needs some coping methods.
That's why Ange erases herself, so that the environment she lives in won't hurt her anymore. That's why Ange tries to change her style of life and her way of thinking, so that she won't anymore be a treath to Okonogi whom in turn will protect her, nor she'll lash out at people, pushing the blame on them for things that they might have not done (Eva wasn't the culprit, Kawabata might not have betrayed her). That's why Ange insists on her family being in the Golden Land.

If instead we've to assume Bern's words as truthful she implied that Ange died falling from the building... but she also said:

As the Witch of Miracles I, Bernkastel, assure you
that a miracle like that will certainly not occur.
Ushiromiya Ange definitely dies in 1998
As a result of Eva's death, Ushiromiya Ange takes off on a journey to learn the truth in '98
and the definitely dies in '98 as well.
Battler tried with so much effort to keep you from arriving at this unhappy future.
It was all just a useless struggle.

So for Bern Ange died on a journey to learn the truth in '98 (the manga showing us scenes of Ep 4), not jumping off the building.

I agree that a lot of Umineko deals with Ange's struggles. That said, a lot of Umineko also deals with things not working out as expected.

Ange ending in hell is also symbolic. For her knowing the truth and not being able to witstand it is "hell". Other characters will refer to their situation as them being in hell.

Truth to be told though, when the manga wasn't out yet people here speculated a lot also on your theory being true. But now the manga, which is confirmed to be Ryukishi's official answer, is pushing a lot in another direction (for example it presents the trick ending but implies it's just Ange speculating on how her life could end up, instead than placing it at the same level of the magic ending as in the VN).

Originally Posted by LaputanAngel

1. Sayo planned countless means of killing everyone and one possibility where she didn't kill anyone. In the manga, it confirms in Ep. 8 that it was her desire that nobody would die that night. As we know though, even though her "miracle" possibility occurred, that being that she didn't kill anyone, everyone died anyways.

The true "miracle" she wanted was for her to be stopped, understood and accepted by Battler.
Umineko clarified that the term "miracle" is often used in game as 'a possibility with chances of success very close to 0'. The adults solving the epitaph is a "miracle" as she believed they had low chances of success but it's not the miracle in which she was hoping for, merely one of the possible outcomes.
Confession made really clear that the miracle she wanted was for her to be forgiven and allowed to smile with that person (Battler) when the seagulls cry (which implies after the storm).

If we consider that it's implied that before dying Sayo had the chance to be with Battler, be accepted by him and smile with him, her miracle came to be even if she died just the same and it probably wasn't in the form she has assumed.

Originally Posted by LaputanAngel

2. Much of the novel (ep. 1-7) deals with the rules of mystery. Different rules are constantly shoved down the readers' and characters' throats about what can and cannot happen. However, as shown in ep. 7 when Will fights Bern, these rules are pointless. Because reality isn't governed by the rules of fiction, the discussion was irrelevant and Will was brutally defeated.

Actually we don't know how Will was defeated. However Will's line of defence is that there weren't any clues as the island blew up and that this was why the TeaParty had to be labelled as fantasy.
But Will might not know about the diary.
If the diary exists though we have a clue, which is basically Eva's testimony.
Confession is also a clue that provide the setting.
And Tohya might also hand out a partial testimony as he remembers something, though not all.
And there could be other clues which are known in 1998 (for example in 1998 people know about Rudolf switching babies and about Kinzo having died in 1984, they might have discovered Rudolf received Yasu's money).
In short we can have plenty of clues, which survived to Rokkenjima's destruction.

After all Ryukishi himself told that even before the manga confirmed the truth it was completely possible to partially work out the truth just with the VN, making Prime a mystery as well.

Originally Posted by LaputanAngel

3. Ange gives up everything for the possibility to either meet her family or learn the truth. She wanted more than anything for her parents not to be the killers. She accepted the Eva-culprit theory, ruined her ties with the only family she had, and ultimately threw herself off a building. End result: her parents were the culprits (as confirmed in game and manga) and she had ruined her own life for nothing.

As I see it, Ange's tragedy is very much in line with the rest of the novel.

The point that the VN didn't portray very well but that the manga portrayed splendidly was not that Ange had to follow in the steps of Beato, ruin her life and die but that Ange has to learn from it and continue her how life.

I agree though that if you don't have read the manga yet this might seem a little blurry as the VN didn't really portray it clearly but one of the main points of the story is to trace a parallel between Beato and Ange with Ange managing to do what all her family failed to do, break the chain of hate and do not live tied to the past but move toward the future.

The manga implied it well in chap 25/26 and in chap 33 and onward.

Your intepretation can work with the VN because in it Ryukishi didn't make things clear enough but the manga really makes obvious his intended message.
It's not a message of the inevitability of failure but of learning by mistakes and moving forward.

I hope this helps!

[Mali]

^^^^
Though I appreciate this theory about Ange you would definitely add Eva's "warning" and her sneering in school (I don't know if the goat students scene could apply to her real school life).
The "then I know"-scene from Ep5 shows Ange...I presume that Ange's death won't occur on Rok. because Ange's journey are hints which had been written in Ep4. So timelines about her are only happening in forgeries, most likely tabloids, after disappearing.

[LaputanAngel]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Death in Umineko doesn't necessarily means death of the flesh.
Ange aknowledges herself as ANGE-Beatrice but not anymore as Ushiromiya Ange.
Both are called Ange but in Japanese Ange is written differently in ANGE-Beatrice compared to Ushiromya Ange.
(English translations try to deliver it by using capital letters but to us it just doesn't work the same).
Add to this that since Ushiromiya Ange disappeared, not only after 7 years she would be declared to be dead but Okonogi himself might have arranged so that she would be assumed to be dead in 1998 as she wanted to erase that identity.

The problem here is Ange DOES aknowledge herself as Ushiromiya Ange. During her discussion with Tohya, the following exchange occurs:

Tohya:
"I came in her today...thinking that you might be a certain person. Her name is Ushiromiya Ange."

Ange:
"That's right. How long it's been since I last used that name. My true name is Ushiromiya Ange."

Going by a pseudonym does not constitute dying, even in the Umineko universe. What matters is that unlike Tohya (who no longer saw himself as Battler), Ange still identified as herself, even if using an alias for other reasons.

Again, the "figurative" death doesn't work with Ange. Her death, as confirmed in the red, is probably physical (aka she actually died).

Originally Posted by jjblue1

We also learn in Umineko that since death doesn't mean death of the flesh, characters can be resurrected/revived in special conditions. Likely meeting Battler again was a trigger for Ushiromiya Ange's temporal resurrection and in her eyes Tohya was a resurrected Battler (though Tohya likely hardly felt that way). Ultimately though Ange let Ushiromiya Ange and Battler go and she and her brother go back on being Yukari and Tohya.

The thing is, she never identified as somebody at any point in time. The entire reason she used the name "Sakutarou's Adventure" was under the marginal possibility that a family member would catch the reference. Likewise, her first thought when she heard about the second author was that it was Battler.

There can be no revival if there was never a death. Again, there is no evidence that Ange suffered a "figurative" death. That said, plenty of evidence points to a physical death.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

I wouldn't say Bern showed us an accurate portrayal. Ep 7 shows us merely Ange learning the truth in Eva's diary at which were added the worst speculations possible carefully depicting Rudolf and Kyrie as monsters who've fun killing people. Whose speculations might have been in Eva's diary as a way to fill in the things she didn't saw happening.

While we do not know the actual reasons for the murders, we do know that Kyrie and Rudolf committed the murders. This is confirmed. Even if there are distortions in the events as played out in Ep.7, it is the closest thing we as the reader get to the truth. I also do not think Bern "tampered" with the events, and that her statement that there is no GM, is accurate.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Bern doesn't show us an accurate portrayal. She's not the one revealing this tale, it's Clair the one doing it, Clair here being probably the personification of the diary (previously she likely was the personification of Confession).

I'm curious as to why you say this portrayal was not accurate.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

What Bern will show us is the game in Ep 8, which she created, which is clearly a forgery and which has the worst outcome possible for Ange as well as a completely OC Battler.

Even Bern acknowledges Ep. 8 as a game though and makes no attempt to pass it off as fake. All parties involved (Ange, Battler, Beatrice) are aware of this. I can hardly see how this constitutes deception.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Lastly Ep 8 manga version clarified that Ep 8 ending can be considered sad or happy just the same because actually that's up to the reader's interpretation.

As far as I'm aware, the manga has yet to finish till Aug.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

When Bern talk about the safety net not being enough to save Ange she's likely being metaphorical. That type of safety nets is purposely done to save people, if they're useless they wouldn't use it.

This is a valid point. However, the scene severely implies that Bern was referring to physical survival. This is shown by the references to the actual height of the jump and the inability to survive from it.

You also need to remember that suicide nets only work up to a certain height. Besides not extending very far off the building (Ange probably missed it all together when she splatted into the ground), they can be made from materials such as steel. Even if she did land in it, a strong likelihood exist that she would have died.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

As Bern said she didn't have the resolve to stand tall against the truth, she needs some coping methods.

As a side note, I think Bern truly hated Ange for her lack of resolve. Here Bern is having undergone the horror that is Higurashi, and then there is Ange who wants to kill herself when she finds out her family was a bunch of murderers.

Not saying this dynamic is there, but given Bern's reaction to the jump and various interactions with Ange throughout the story, I think there was more here than just trying to screw with a random person.


------------------

With that I appreciate the commentary so far on this theory.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by LaputanAngel

Again, the "figurative" death doesn't work with Ange. Her death, as confirmed in the red, is probably physical (aka she actually died).

Quoting the EP8 manga chapter 35 "Beyond the door is - a Trick - and then...":

Bern(memory):
Ushiromiya Ange definitely dies in 1998

Ange:
Yes, "Ushiromiya Ange" who is stuck in the past needs to die.
Ushiromiya Ange...
fell off this roof and died just now.
All in order for the new "me" to better her life from now on.
The me right here is the witch ANGE...
and I will live as a White Witch.

The sentence that Ange just fell off the roof and died was told to Okonogi, as a remark that this is how things would be told to the public. So they probably faked her death and made it seem like Ushiromiya Ange died.

Even Bern acknowledges Ep. 8 as a game though and makes no attempt to pass it off as fake. All parties involved (Ange, Battler, Beatrice) are aware of this. I can hardly see how this constitutes deception.

Here I think you need to look closer.
Bern's game on the EP8 gameboard is considered a game by all the meta-characters except Ange. Ange is left alone while this fact is communicated and then lured by Bern into this part of the gameboard. When Ange is rescued by Erika she first has to be told that this is a game constructed from public opinion.

Then there is Battler's game on the gameboard and different characters have very different perceptions of it:
Battler sees it as a way to protect his sister and give her a reason to live.
Bern sees its weakpoints and points them out to Ange to break her trust.
Ange is caught between Battler's presentation of absolute good and Bern's presentation of absolute evil on the same gameboard.
Erika is disgusted by how the truth is wrapped up in lies.
and so on...

As a side note, I think Bern truly hated Ange for her lack of resolve. Here Bern is having undergone the horror that is Higurashi, and then there is Ange who wants to kill herself when she finds out her family was a bunch of murderers.

I don't really think that this is her motivation. I would rather go with what is implied in the Tea Party (or respectively chapter 36 of the manga), that Bern simply played the role of the villain. Battler says she is a reaper who flashed the truth in fron of Ange not to help her, but to break her and then give her a final push with the book of truth. I'd like to believe that she played this role and has no actual emotional attachment beyond her feverish want to win.

[GreyZone]

The problem is the red truth itself though. No matter what an objective undeniable proof is not possible. Red truth only works in fictions (e.g. forgeries) within Umineko, but in Prime it's nothing but speculation that may or may not be supported by (circumstancial) evidence. If someone claims that his/her red truth is absolute you will get something like Battler trying to use the red truth he was given regarding Natsuhi's innocence, it will simply be denied, because NONE of the characters are "the author of reality".

[LaputanAngel]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

The problem is the red truth itself though. No matter what an objective undeniable proof is not possible. Red truth only works in fictions (e.g. forgeries) within Umineko, but in Prime it's nothing but speculation that may or may not be supported by (circumstancial) evidence. If someone claims that his/her red truth is absolute you will get something like Battler trying to use the red truth he was given regarding Natsuhi's innocence, it will simply be denied, because NONE of the characters are "the author of reality".

What?

The entire point of the red truth is that it is an objective undeniable proof. While it may be "open to interpretation" the words themselves must be true in some fashion.

In the world of Umineko, the red truth is not just "speculation". It is a guarantee that we as the reader wouldn't have otherwise.

[Mali]

Red truth are the words of witches who are fictive. But it may be true that the author hid the truth in one of many forgeries where Eva + Battler survived/could survived (3,5,6,7 TP, 8 Bern's game). So why not both?

[LaputanAngel]

Originally Posted by Mali

Red truth are the words of witches who are fictive. But it may be true that the author hid the truth in one of many forgeries where Eva + Battler survived/could survived (3,5,6,7 TP, 8 Bern's game). So why not both?

When reading Umineko, I was (as still am) under the impression that Lambda, Bern, and Aurora are just as real as any other character in the story. Despite Higurashi having been on the TV, I still see Umineko as a Part 2 for Bern and Lambda from their Higurashi adventures.

[Levani]

Despite Higurashi having been on the TV

As far as I'm concerned, DEEN is not canon.

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by LaputanAngel

What?

The entire point of the red truth is that it is an objective undeniable proof. While it may be "open to interpretation" the words themselves must be true in some fashion.

In the world of Umineko, the red truth is not just "speculation". It is a guarantee that we as the reader wouldn't have otherwise.

His point is that Red Truth can only exist in a (meta-)fictional context. Beatrice can only use Red Truth about her stories because she wrote them and controls all facts, but those Red Truths can't be extrapolated to apply to Rokkenjima Prime because none of them are accurate enough for the base assumptions to be trustworthy.

We can't even trust that Battler is anything like how he appears in Umineko because Toya doesn't remember, Ange's memory isn't objective, and the actual character we follow for most of the series is a fictional construct based on what Yasu knew of his six year old self.

Only Witches can use Red Truth because it's magic. Humans can only have access to Blue Truth because that's the reality humans live in.