(L) Kamisama Dolls

[Tempester]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

EDIT: I see where your picking at me by. What I meant by dangerous was moral culpability, not anything else.

Oh, I see what you mean now.

[Guardian Enzo]

I don't think you can equate them either in terms of moral or practical culpability without a pretty heavy coat of cute girl character armor. Not only is Kirio a child who's been abused his whole life as opposed to a young adult from a life of privilege, but Kirio's sin was basically saying "Nyah, nyah!" enough to Utao (another child) to get her to attack him. They were certainly reckless in fighting in a public place, but if you look at that fight there's no point where either kid uses their kakashi to intentionally threaten any bystanders. Mahiru, OTOH, intentionally put Hibino in a life-threatening situation and used her kakashi to physically attack Koushirou and Hibino. It's a totally different situation, and Mahiru being a cute girl voiced by KanaHana doesn't change that fact.

[Reckoner]

Koushiro was threatening her and was demanding that she return to the village. They edged her on, and she bit back. Not saying she's right or anything, but it was not exactly like she started stuff from nothing.

I'm also sure that she didn't leave Hibino there so she could get raped, she was merely using her as a bait for Kyouhei. Not that she was being nice or anything.

They both took aggressive action in an immature way. Some harsh past doesn't change jack. It doesn't seem like anyone in the village exactly has a past filled with roses.

We should also factor in that we don't know how far Kirio was going to go had his doll not been destroyed by Kyouhei.

[Guardian Enzo]

This is starting to feel circular, so I'm going to leave it off here, but if I might make one final point... Even if you disagree with everything else I'm saying about the abuse and the nature of how dangerous their relative behavior is, well, I think that's wrong but fine - I just don't think you can equate the level of responsibility of a 12 year-old with that of a young adult of college age. Apples and oranges.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

This is starting to feel circular, so I'm going to leave it off here, but if I might make one final point... Even if you disagree with everything else I'm saying about the abuse and the nature of how dangerous their relative behavior is, well, I think that's wrong but fine - I just don't think you can equate the level of responsibility of a 12 year-old with that of a young adult of college age. Apples and oranges.

That's just age discrimination, I was perfectly able to compehrend the moral implications of my actions as a 12 year old and as a 19 year old. People will be irrational regardless of their age. Some of the older guys in this series have been even worst (Look at Aki's brother).

Clearly the characters are in a worst position right now than they were with Kirio, and clearly there is a threat presented by Mahiru's actions... I'm not disagreeing with that. My original purpose was simply to say that Mahiru shouldn't be painted as an outright evil antagonist. She's very immature and misguided, but I don't think she's evil. I don't think her actions have made her any more or less dangerous morally than Kirio did earlier (At least not by that drastic of a difference, minor at best). That's all I been saying.

EDIT: To the petty person who negged me, you've only encouraged me to post more to piss you off.

[thundrakkon]

This debate is beginning to feel like the one that went on with Shiki.

Spoiler for Shiki:

In Shiki, certain people kept defending Megumi, in essence, because she was pretty. They` went as far as blaming the victims because, well, in essence, they were not pretty.

Megumi brutally murdered people, plot revenge against those she finds "annoying" (not because they did her any harm), and schemed to get rid of all the people around the guy she likes.

Yet, people will claim she is a victim and defend her actions because, well, she is cute.

I guess a way to put things in perspective (although it does not always work with everyone) is to imagine Mahiru as a different character design. What if she was not pretty? Would the same actions be viewed differently? What if it was Kuga Atsushi (the guy who raped and killed Chihaya sensei) was the character design instead of Mahiru? Or what if they had Mahiru be a fat blobby princess with zits and freckles all over her face? Will she still get the same sympathy?

[Reckoner]

I don't see the need to point out her being a pretty girl as something that relevant. It is not the reason I hold my opinion.

There's a misconception going on here in the first place. There is no justification for her actions, and I and at least I don't think others as well have ever tried to justify her actions. There's no free pass to her character for any reason to do whatever she wants. If that's what people think I and I believe others are even saying here, then this conversation is certainly going nowhere because that is just false.

What I am saying is that she is not clear cut evil. Morally grey is what she is. I'll be shocked if she doesn't end up on the side of our protagonists when this all blows over.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

That's just age discrimination, I was perfectly able to compehrend the moral implications of my actions as a 12 year old and as a 19 year old.

And yet, the laws of many first world nations (including your own, I think) implicitly and strongly disagree with you here.

I myself strongly disagree with you here. I frankly think that its absolutely ridiculous to hold a 12 year old as morally culpable for his actions as you would a legal adult (all else being equal).

The vast majority of 12 year old children are not as mature as most adults, and hence have a less developed sense of right/wrong than adults. To Kirio, squabbling and "play fighting" with his sister to vent his feelings of envy towards her is no big deal. An adult would likely know better, as s/he'd likely have a better sense of the "collateral damage" that fights like this can cause, and of just how dangerous fights like this can be.

And the concept of "age discrimination" only goes so far. Like it or not, kids and adults are not treated the same. 12 year olds can't legally drive cars, can't legally consume alcohol, can't legally sign up to join the military in most (all?) first world nations, etc... whereas adults can legally do all these things.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

What I am saying is that she is not clear cut evil.

Who on this thread is arguing that she is? Some people (including myself) have simply argued that, so far at least, she's an antagonist. The term "antagonist" is being used instead of the term "villain" for a reason.

There's no rule saying that antagonists have to be "clear cut evil".

I'll be shocked if she doesn't end up on the side of our protagonists when this all blows over.

Character alignments can legitimately change over time, and I don't see anybody on this thread disputing that.

Clear-cut example: Vegeta from DBZ

But just because Vegeta ended up an anti-hero/protagonist doesn't mean he wasn't initially an antagonist. He very much was an antagonist during the first DBZ arc that he was in.

[Reckoner]

OK. My argument is getting lost here, so I'm going to restate myself so as to clarify my position instead of getting picked apart by rather insignificant side points to this discussion.

Many people here are trying to position Mahiru here as a clear cut antagonist. She may be the antagonist in a way now because her character is immature and impulsive, but I do not think she will be in the future (I mean Vegeta from DBZ was an antagonist turned good later, but I don't think Mahiru even comes close to him in that extreme). Because she is morally grey, I fully expect her to not be the antagonist for long. I don't think she's been much more of an antagonist than Kirio was. Because her position as a real antagonist in this story is very weak at the moment, I don't even find it that appropriate to label her as such.

The real antagonists in this story are nowhere to be seen at this very moment, but the conflicts surrounding the village system and the family feuds is what is the central conflict to Kyouhei. Sure you can label her as a kind of "secondary antagonist," and sure you can do that. But that distinction is important to make since the role of the "antagonist" in a story normally carries a far bigger role than what Mahiru is being given.

In the end this is just a semantics debate, and it's not even worth having so I'll stop here. We all agree that she has to be overcome now as some sort of conflicting force, and that is all that matters.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And yet, the laws of many first world nations (including your own, I think) implicitly and strongly disagree with you here.

I myself strongly disagree with you here. I frankly think that its absolutely ridiculous to hold a 12 year old as morally culpable for his actions as you would a legal adult (all else being equal).

The vast majority of 12 year old children are not as mature as most adults, and hence have a less developed sense of right/wrong than adults. To Kirio, squabbling and "play fighting" with his sister to vent his feelings of envy towards her is no big deal. An adult would likely know better, as s/he'd likely have a better sense of the "collateral damage" that fights like this can cause, and of just how dangerous fights like this can be.

And the concept of "age discrimination" only goes so far. Like it or not, kids and adults are not treated the same. 12 year olds can't legally drive cars, can't legally consume alcohol, can't legally sign up to join the military in most (all?) first world nations, etc... whereas adults can legally do all these things.

There's also the minor point that 12 year olds havent even finished developing, mentally or biologically. For most of them, puberty hasn't even started, and lord only knows how how much that fucks with people's minds and ability to think until it finishes.

That's ignoring such things as 'experience,' including the 'in my experience, doing this sort of thing can get people hurt.'

Character alignments can legitimately change over time, and I don't see anybody on this thread disputing that.

Clear-cut example: Vegeta from DBZ

But just because Vegeta ended up an anti-hero/protagonist doesn't mean he wasn't initially an antagonist. He very much was an antagonist during the first DBZ arc that he was in.

And a few of the others as well. In the Gundam 00 series, Soma Peries and Sergei Smirnov were two such characters: they were opposed to Celestial Being at the start, and more or less aligned by the end.

The antagonist-to-protagonist also works in reverse in traitor characters, people who started on the Hero's side but later abandoned it. Sometimes it's temporary ('help I'm being controlled'), sometimes not.

And if you really want to get wonky, Gundam Seed Destiny switched the protagnists with their antagonists and made the antagonists the end-story protagonists.

[Sol Falling]

As far as the apparent age and end of puberty for Mahiru goes, where has it been established that she's 19 anyway? I thought she looked a couple years younger than Kyouhei and Aki in the flashback and Kyouhei himself is likely only 19-20 being in his first few years at university.

If puberty can be said to fuck with people's ability to make decisions, I'd think it would make much more sense to apply that to Mahiru, who is still near that age, than to Kirio, if he's at an age where it hasn't even started.

[Triple_R]

One thing I'll say here is that I viewed Kirio himself as an antagonist for an episode or two.

I view "antagonist" more as a current role that a character plays rather than a commentary on their character as a whole.

It is true, of course, that some characters are "just" an antagonist, and that this really does define them to a degree. That this is the only role that they ever really serve (think of Jake Martinez in Tiger and Bunny, for example).


But as Dean_the_Young points out, it's hardly unheard of for characters to shift back and forth between protagonist and antagonist in anime (don't get me started on Gundam Seed Destiny, lol ).

When I wrote that Mahiru is a superb antagonist, I meant that this is what she is right now in my view. Her character may well shift to other roles over time.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

In the end this is just a semantics debate, and it's not even worth having so I'll stop here. We all agree that she has to be overcome now as some sort of conflicting force, and that is all that matters.

Semantically speaking, she is (or IMO was) definitely an antagonist. I think what you're actually debating is whether she's a villain - AKA evil. And yeah, while I think Mahiru is selfish, violent, dangerous, and emotionally immature, I don't think she's supposed to be an evil character. That, to me, implies a level of rationality to one's choices that I don't think Mahiru exhibits.

I'd also say that the show has been foreshadowing that she'll either change sides or at the very least soften up a bit. She's essentially driven by emotion and a belief in her own superiority. I don't think her attitude or at the very least the most contemptuous of her behavior can survive being decisively humbled - which is what the show appears intent on doing to her with her defeat and subsequent lose of control over her kakeshi. And without the kakeshi she's just a bitter teenage girl with emotional issues - hardly villian material. The direction her character is taken later in this franchise is going to be interesting.

Or maybe I'm just thinking she'll get redeemed because I don't think this show as the balls to kill off a cute character.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

As far as the apparent age and end of puberty for Mahiru goes, where has it been established that she's 19 anyway? I thought she looked a couple years younger than Kyouhei and Aki in the flashback and Kyouhei himself is likely only 19-20 being in his first few years at university.

If puberty can be said to fuck with people's ability to make decisions, I'd think it would make much more sense to apply that to Mahiru, who is still near that age, than to Kirio, if he's at an age where it hasn't even started.

I've been wondering about that too. I certainly never thought she was as old as Kyouhei, Aki, Hibino, or Kuuko.

[LKK]

Mahiru shows up wearing a school uniform which college students do not wear. Therefore, she still must be at least in high school. The odds are she's no older than 17.

[Serp]

Its not some much that she is going to team up...I don't believe they were ever on opposite sides. Everyone has something they want but the village still unites them and that is Kyohei's problem. So, no clear antagonist has shown up yet.

By the definition used here the following are antagonists:
Utao's twin
Aki
Mahiru
Investigator
The Village
Kyohei's father
Akatsuki

I think that definition is flawed since most of the characters here have some type of dependency problem. The only true opposing factor for this season is the village. Mahiru just so happens to be the catalyst that is progressing the story the furthest and I believe that is confusing some of the viewers. Kirio had like 3 episodes when he was a threat but a resolution was found or about to be. Same with Mahiru...the way the story is paced makes it seem like this are antagonists but no.

[serenade_beta]

*watches first DVD bonus*
Uooooooooh! Kukuri is happy toooooooooooooooo!

Aki's command menu...

[kk2extreme]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Heh. I was just talking to a fried about how Kamisama Dolls seemed like a low-budget version of Evangelion. In-show low budget, that is.

"We wanted to use the power of God to blow up Tokyo, but couldn't afford to keep rebuilding an entire city. So we had to settle for some damage to apartment buildings."

"We couldn't afford 30 meter giant robots made of flesh and metal... so we made them about ten feet tall and made out of wood."

"First Contact was supposed to nuke Antarctica... but we had to settle with a forest fire out in the country side."

"We couldn't afford an actor who could pose as a menacing, emotionally abusive father to act as a looming antagonist... so we found some kid-beater geezer."

"Teenage angst and music players cost too much, so we got a little girl and cake."

LOL, funny but true when you think about it

[Kakkou]

Originally Posted by serenade_beta

Aki's command menu...

I had to double take when it showed up. Yup, I think it sums up Aki rather well.

[Lexxus]

Still no episode 13? Will it be delay?

[Sides]

Originally Posted by Lexxus

Still no episode 13? Will it be delay?

I don't think it has be aired yet. Should be airing tonight/tomorrow morning, 25:30/01:30 JST i think it is.