Character Discussion - Lelouch

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by ZeroSama

In my eyes i see Luluko and Suzaku shacked up leaving Euphie as the spare wheel. She might still be a friend of his but thats all.

Wow sudden urge to write my own ff.

Well, given Suzaku's nature, presenting him with a choice between two girls would be enough to make his head spin.

And... Euphie getting Lelouch to play with "girl stuff" when they were younger.

[Rising Dragon]

If you change Lelouch into a girl, it doesn't matter if Suzaku is a boy or a girl, you'd just need to change Nunnally and Rolo's genders.

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

If you change Lelouch isn't a girl, it doesn't matter if Suzaku is a boy or a girl, you'd just need to change Nunnally and Rolo's genders.

Well, Rolo gender-flipped will become someone out of Gunslinger Girls, but Nunnally as an Ill Boy...

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

It's probably just myself. But, if Lulu had been a girl, an interesting sub-plot could be the old "Suzaku-in-love-with-Lelouch" subplot.

Lelouch doesn't need to be a girl for such a subplot to be interesting

*flees*

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

Lelouch doesn't need to be a girl for such a subplot to be interesting

*flees*

Aye. But, somehow, Ho Yay is over-rated in my books.

[youngde]

Hmmm...the conversation in this thread has certainly taken a shift into the bizarre since I checked it last. I really don't know what to say. And here I thought that conversations centering around a show that w/ unexplained mystical powers and giant fighting robots couldn't get any weirder. (You would have thought I would have learned my lesson w/ Evangelion, but apparently not.)

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by youngde

Hmmm...the conversation in this thread has certainly taken a shift into the bizarre since I checked it last. I really don't know what to say. And here I thought that conversations centering around a show that w/ unexplained mystical powers and giant fighting robots couldn't get any weirder. (You would have thought I would have learned my lesson w/ Evangelion, but apparently not.)

Aye, it was my fault. I wish to blame the genderbending concept which the Suzumiya Haruhi fandom started.

But, seriously, it was Lelouch's Draco in Leather Pants reputation that had me thinking about having him as a girl. Also, there is just... something about a girl doing some of the stuff which he did in the series.

[Droplet]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

Aye, it was my fault. I wish to blame the genderbending concept which the Suzumiya Haruhi fandom started.

But, seriously, it was Lelouch's Draco in Leather Pants reputation that had me thinking about having him as a girl. Also, there is just... something about a girl doing some of the stuff which he did in the series.

Don't worry, only good can come out with your idea. Turn Lelouch into a girl and we might just get a version of Kannazuki no Miko that actually has a plot, aside from the romance.

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by Droplet

Don't worry, only good can come out with your idea. Turn Lelouch into a girl and we might just get a version of Kannazuki no Miko that actually has a plot, aside from the romance.

"Lelouch Vi Britannia, 1st Empress of Britannia." Sounds pretty cool to me.

[Sol Falling]

Hmm, I myself dislike Haruhi's genderbending.

I can certainly see the appeal of replacing Lelouch with a girl in reimaginings of individual scenes. I agree, I also get shiver's thinking of Zero's unmasking scene. However, I think this would be impossible to do cohesively for an entire story. The issue is: despite his physical delicacy, Lelouch's personality is distinctly male. Furthermore, Lelouch's personality is a principle part of Code Geass' plot. Therefore, I'd say that consistent characterization of Lelouch as a girl would basically require rehauling so much of the story that it'd be unrecognizable.

Ahh, I had so much more to say about this, but it's hard to get my thoughts down. Bweh.

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

Aye, it was my fault. I wish to blame the genderbending concept which the Suzumiya Haruhi fandom started.

I'd say the fault is on the show itself, for making the boys crossdress in both a Picture Drama and Lost Colors xD And making them look good as girls, too (...apart from Rivalz, that is.)

[Levy]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Despite his physical delicacy, Lelouch's personality is distinctly male. Furthermore, Lelouch's personality is a principle part of Code Geass' plot.

So true. I can't even bring myself to figure out what would be the personality of a female-Lelouch

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

I'd say the fault is on the show itself, for making the boys crossdress in both a Picture Drama and Lost Colors xD And making them look good as girls, too (...apart from Rivalz, that is.)

I'm surprised Suzako doesn't get much attention, actually. He looked just as unnervingly natural as Lelouch.

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by Levy

So true. I can't even bring myself to figure out what would be the personality of a female-Lelouch

That is exactly why I thought of the implications of Lelouch being a teenage lady. No doubt, gender roles come into discussion. But, given how messed-up Lelouch's background was, I myself had no trouble seeing a girl wielding Lelouch's personality. That, too, is a contrast to every other female character in the series.

"Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned,
Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned"

Combined with Lelouch's intelligence, it might be more interesting.

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I'm surprised Suzako doesn't get much attention, actually. He looked just as unnervingly natural as Lelouch.

I've got a decent amount of Suzako fanart, but yeah, Luluko is way more popular. But that's to be expected, what with Lelouch's insane popularity and the fact that people usually like seeing their favorite characters acting all embarrassed and blushing Maybe Suzaku is just too...enthusiast at wearing girls clothes xD;

[youngde]

Gender bending has always creeped me out a bit. Don't get me wrong, guys dressing up like girls can be hilarious. Just watch 'Some Like It Hot.' It's when guys actually become girls (or vice versa) that things start getting a little weird.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

That is exactly why I thought of the implications of Lelouch being a teenage lady. No doubt, gender roles come into discussion. But, given how messed-up Lelouch's background was, I myself had no trouble seeing a girl wielding Lelouch's personality. That, too, is a contrast to every other female character in the series.

"Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned,
Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned"

Combined with Lelouch's intelligence, it might be more interesting.

On the other hand, I percieve Lelouch's personality as developed from a distinctly male experience of his background. But I suppose I shall define the gender distinction I'm working with here. The fundamental axis by which male and female differ, tentatively proposed by me after some deliberation, is 'autonomy' versus 'cooperation'. Biologically and culturally, females are generally heavily disposed towards the support, mediation, and intuitive understanding of others. They possess an 'other' centered perspective of the universe, in that they (again, generally) accrue knowledge in terms of synthetic experience. Males, conversely, are more focused towards their direct ability to affect reality. Comparatively lacking in interpersonal understanding, males are rather compelled towards autonomy in terms of the self and competition/protectiveness in terms of others. I describe a 'self' centered perspective of the universe as male, in that their understanding of the world is expanded through the discovery of absolute laws derived from analytical knowledge. That is, males see the universe as an objective truth governed by laws of causality and equivalence, and percieve the subjective experiences of others as phenomena within that objective world. Females alternatively percieve the universe as a subjective experience; they gain knowledge through understanding the subjective knowledge of others, and are able to comprehend the 'truths' of others' experience without subscribing to those laws themselves.

This isn't quite a binary distinction. All humans possess the capacity to aggregate both synthetic and analytic knowledge; to understand objectively and subjectively. The question is which dominates the other, and to what degree, and certainly environmental affects can upset a genetic bias. Individuals who step outside of their culturally and biologically defined behaviour will nevertheless be 'masculine' (in the case of a female) or 'feminine' (in the case of a male) representations of their gender.

To bring this back to Lelouch. I want to point out that Lelouch doesn't merely possess extraordinary analytical aptitude. Lelouch also demonstrates great empathetic capacity as well. The point I want to get at here, is that Lelouch's intuitive understanding of others is utterly dominated by his internal system of universal truths. Once they are demonstrated to him, Lelouch very much understands and is moved by the emotional duress of Shirley, Kallen, C.C., Nunally, Suzaku, Rolo. However, rather than move to allieve it in accordance to their own (whether subjective or objective) perspective of the world, Lelouch rather always opts to act on his own understanding (objective, as it is percieved by him). However, also realize that on these not infrequent occasions Lelouch's motivation becomes entirely characterized by this empathy with others. Combined with Lelouch's inability to achieve this empathy with others unless their reality is explicitly shoved in his face, this shows that Lelouch's synthetic capacity is both powerful and underdeveloped.

Thus I believe a female transposition of Lelouch is impossible. For a female, synthetic processing of experiences is almost guaranteed to be more developed; even if their genetic predisposition is weak (evolutionarily unlikely), the cultural bias will enforce it. So in order for a female character to express an analytic dominance as developed as Lelouch's, the only possibility would be if she had rejected the inclination to empathise with (synthesize the experiences of) others. This would bring a twofold inconsistency in Lelouch's motivation, and require major revision to the story: not only would the emotions of Shirley, Kallen, C.C., Nunally, Suzaku, Rolo fail to move him; he would have long intuited them, such that the feigning of surprise upon their revelation would be utterly inappropriate.

To summarize in a manner. When a woman is kind, her focus is on the object of her kindness. When a man is kind (at the very least, Lelouch's kind of man; the average one), his focus is on the meaning of kindness. The only reason Lelouch's initial betrayal of his friends and sister is consistent is because of his undeveloped empathetic sense; the only reason it is so undeveloped is because of the dominance of his analytic mode of thought. In a woman this would not be possible. For any woman: the decision to soil your hands with the blood of your family in your sister's name; the decision to erase a dear friends memory; the decision to violate a half-sister's genuine compassion; these would all be an undeniably intentional cruelty.

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

To summarize in a manner. When a woman is kind, her focus is on the object of her kindness. When a man is kind (at the very least, Lelouch's kind of man; the average one), his focus is on the meaning of kindness. The only reason Lelouch's initial betrayal of his friends and sister is consistent is because of his undeveloped empathetic sense; the only reason it is so undeveloped is because of the dominance of his analytic mode of thought. In a woman this would not be possible. For any woman: the decision to soil your hands with the blood of your family in your sister's name; the decision to erase a dear friends memory; the decision to violate a half-sister's genuine compassion; these would all be an undeniably intentional cruelty.

That is exactly what I'm looking for. In a female Lelouch, I must admit that I was influenced by Lailah from Angel Sanctuary, a female angel who repressed herself to obtain power and rule as a male.

I guess a female Lelouch will have a lot more self-doubt about her actions, and to see her soldering on despite what her heart tells her....
I need to see a shrink.

[Droplet]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

On the other hand, I percieve Lelouch's personality as developed from a distinctly male experience of his background. But I suppose I shall define the gender distinction I'm working with here. The fundamental axis by which male and female differ, tentatively proposed by me after some deliberation, is 'autonomy' versus 'cooperation'. Biologically and culturally, females are generally heavily disposed towards the support, mediation, and intuitive understanding of others. They possess an 'other' centered perspective of the universe, in that they (again, generally) accrue knowledge in terms of synthetic experience. Males, conversely, are more focused towards their direct ability to affect reality. Comparatively lacking in interpersonal understanding, males are rather compelled towards autonomy in terms of the self and competition/protectiveness in terms of others. I describe a 'self' centered perspective of the universe as male, in that their understanding of the world is expanded through the discovery of absolute laws derived from analytical knowledge. That is, males see the universe as an objective truth governed by laws of causality and equivalence, and percieve the subjective experiences of others as phenomena within that objective world. Females alternatively percieve the universe as a subjective experience; they gain knowledge through understanding the subjective knowledge of others, and are able to comprehend the 'truths' of others' experience without subscribing to those laws themselves.

Basically, what you're saying is that females are more passionate but males are more reasonable with how
they regard reality, and that males tend to be more selfish while females are more selfless. And because of this distinction, you think that Lelouch is more suited to be leader as a male? That if he were female, it would seem unnatural for the viewers?

Sigh, I'd like to disagree with you, but it's hard to shake off that deep rooted notion that men are looked at as superior to women in leadership. However, I'll at least say that this isn't always the case.

I'm glad that you included that second paragraph to state your reservations about the first one. If you didn't, someone would've probably viewed your post as slightly sexist.

Upon reading your fourth paragraph, I think that I'll have to disagree.

So in order for a female character to express an analytic dominance as developed as Lelouch's, the only possibility would be if she had rejected the inclination to empathise with (synthesize the experiences of) others.

In general, analytic dominance shouldn't be bothered by the capability to emphatize; be it male or female. But if you were meaning to say on certain occasions, then I can agree with that.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

That is exactly what I'm looking for. In a female Lelouch, I must admit that I was influenced by Lailah from Angel Sanctuary, a female angel who repressed herself to obtain power and rule as a male.

I guess a female Lelouch will have a lot more self-doubt about her actions, and to see her soldering on despite what her heart tells her....
I need to see a shrink.

My point is that a female Lelouch who repressed her empathy to obtain power would be inconsistent with the Lelouch of the show, who by the end of the series is entirely motivated by empathy (but still chooses his actions on the basis of an analytic understanding of the world).

Originally Posted by Droplet

Basically, what you're saying is that females are more passionate but males are more reasonable with how
they regard reality, and that males tend to be more selfish while females are more selfless. And because of this distinction, you think that Lelouch is more suited to be leader as a male? That if he were female, it would seem unnatural for the viewers?

:P I said nothing to do with Lelouch as a leader. Actually, I think Lelouch's maleness, his analytic emphasis over his synthetic one, is the direct cause of many tragedies in Code Geass. Which makes him a bad leader. Notice that with Lelouch's greatest and most meaningful act, Zero Requiem, he isn't leading anyone at all.

Anyway I wasn't talking about passion or reason at all. Actually, it might be said that my analysis is prejudiced towards females in that it is mainly formulated on my percieved deficiency in males in terms of intuitively empathizing with other people (based on body language, voice tone, etc. Non-verbal, even verbal, communication). Girls are much better at that stuff: they can much more easily percieve how another is feeling than a guy. As a result of their understanding of what others are thinking, they don't treat their reality, perceptions, and thoughts as objective, absolute truth. They also treat other people's perceptions of objective truths as subjective ones, are able to consider their own perceptions as subjective ones, and thus are able to cooperate and compromise to achieve a goal. Guys, alternatively, lacking this interpersonal perceptiveness, consider their own reality the objective one. They then treat interacting with other people the same way they treat natural phenomena: as a predetermined chain of causality which can be analyzed to produce an idealized truth. Thus is a male wants to convince someone to do something, they will consult their analysis of the general motivations of people such as the one they want to convince, and attempt to apply it. Speaking specifically about interactions between people.

The distinction here is between the abstract and the concrete, the real and the ideal. Application and theory. Objectivity and subjectivity, which are two sides of the same coin. Males intuit truth from the abstract relationships between words and definitions in their mind. Females intuit truth from their concrete observations of the emotions and perceptions of others. Generally. I'm just stating the kind of thinking males and females are naturally inclined towards.

Sigh, I'd like to disagree with you, but it's hard to shake off that deep rooted notion that men are looked at as superior to women in leadership. However, I'll at least say that this isn't always the case.

I'm glad that you included that second paragraph to state your reservations about the first one. If you didn't, someone would've probably viewed your post as slightly sexist.

:P Sexist only in the implications you read into it. In terms of the axis I chose, Autonomy versus Cooperation (i.e. the ability to get things done yourself versus the ability to get others to get things done together), both extremes are valuable for leadership.

Upon reading your fourth paragraph, I think that I'll have to disagree.

In general, analytic dominance shouldn't be bothered by the capability to emphatize; be it male or female. But if you were meaning to say on certain occasions, then I can agree with that.

My point is that, girls are just infinately better at understanding other people than guys. Lelouch's analytic dominance is characterized by both his strict adherence to absolute mental principles (Shoot and be shot, Evil to overcome evil, Don't trample the weak, etc) and his empathetic incompetence. The only way for a girl to attain Lelouch's level of both analytic ability and emotional callousness would be if she heavily rejected her inherent aptitude in understanding other people. However then, since she's consciously rejecting her empathy, there is no way to reproduce the moments when Lelouch finally gains a flash of empathetic insight, which eventually becomes his core motivation. Code Geass is a story about Lelouch learning that 'people strive for tomorrow', that 'love is power', that 'every human just wants a little piece of happiness'. However, a girl of Lelouch's age, experience, and intelligence would already know that, because of her inherent intuitive understanding of others.