[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[einhorn303]

Well, even if later episodes fail as a game, they'll still be incredibly interesting as a story.

[LyricalAura]

In the case that the door was always unlocked, you can draw some interesting conclusions from the presence of the gold bars. Either:

(A) the culprit left the gold bars alone because they don't care about money, or
(B) the bars were placed in the chapel after the culprit left, meaning that at least one person was fooled into thinking the victims were still alive.

[serverwolf]

if you take into consideration that 3 gold bars are 2 more gold bars then kruss know of.
then the 3 gold bars are actully from the golden land.
the only one who know about it (i guess it the -only- one) is 'beatrice' -the culrpit-

[AuraTwilight]

There's no guarantee that "Beatrice" is the only one who knows about the gold, and even if she was, it still wouldn't mean she was the culprit. The fact that Krauss has atleast one bar of gold proves that not all the gold is locked up with the rest; is there a Red saying that Krauss's bar is the only one released from Kinzo's cache?

[Will Wright]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

There's no guarantee that "Beatrice" is the only one who knows about the gold, and even if she was, it still wouldn't mean she was the culprit. The fact that Krauss has atleast one bar of gold proves that not all the gold is locked up with the rest; is there a Red saying that Krauss's bar is the only one released from Kinzo's cache?

If you want to go insane, might as well go all the way. Is there a red saying that Krauss' bar was release from Kinzo's cache at all?

Oh yes I went there.

[serverwolf]

well kinzo showed and gave 1 golden bar to what-his-name and that person's gold found itself in krauss hands. it was said in couple of episodes. its white text. there is no red about it, there is no guarante of it.
if you dont belive this white text... .... idk... nvm.

also, 'beatrice' is just a title used by the true culrpit. we all pretty much know that a witch named beatrice is an illusion.
also 'she' is obviusly the culrpit... that's what the game is about no? finding out who is 'beatrice'....

and finaly i said so my self, i have no idea if 'beatrice' is the only one who knows where the gold is. i guess its like that becuse every one there is pretty much need a huge amout of money, and quick.

[AuraTwilight]

I would've went there myself if the conversation progressed to that point. I'm under no illusions that Krauss necessarily found a gold ingot at ALL. Why the hell didn't he pawn that shit off to pay for his massive debts? Why has it never been mentioned after this point? Who has a room with literally nothing in it but a single table and an ingot with a cloth on it and absolutely no other furniture or decorum? I mean, what the fuck?

It's not the white text that's the problem, either. Did that guy test every bar? How do we know that guy wasn't a confidant of Kinzo's that lied for him?

Also, you're making a fallacy. Just because Beatrice takes credit for the murders doesn't mean the culprit is Beatrice; after all, Beatrice is also claiming to be a witch. How do we know she's not taking the fall for someone else through some martyr complex? How do we know someone isn't just using the Beatrice legend to do some murders, though they themselves do not claim to be Beatrice?

[delita-umw-]

If we're gonna go there, why not just ask is there even a red stating that Krauss really found a gold ingot at all? Can you really trust that scene!?

edit: Serverwolf, I don't know if you've been following any of the more recent theories, but there's a general understanding that it's almost impossible for whoever possesses the title of Beatrice to be the true culprit.

[AuraTwilight]

That's essentially what I'm questioning. That scene only exists to get the reader to accept that the gold exists early on in the story, but we have other scenes and reds now proving the existence of the gold. Whether or not that particular scene is true, though, can change the face on a bunch of very critical questions.

[serverwolf]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I would've went there myself if the conversation progressed to that point. I'm under no illusions that Krauss necessarily found a gold ingot at ALL. Why the hell didn't he pawn that shit off to pay for his massive debts? Why has it never been mentioned after this point? Who has a room with literally nothing in it but a single table and an ingot with a cloth on it and absolutely no other furniture or decorum? I mean, what the fuck?

It's not the white text that's the problem, either. Did that guy test every bar? How do we know that guy wasn't a confidant of Kinzo's that lied for him?

Also, you're making a fallacy. Just because Beatrice takes credit for the murders doesn't mean the culprit is Beatrice; after all, Beatrice is also claiming to be a witch. How do we know she's not taking the fall for someone else through some martyr complex? How do we know someone isn't just using the Beatrice legend to do some murders, though they themselves do not claim to be Beatrice?

well i have no idea why kruss didnt use that gold... maybe becuse it rais rumors? idk...

about the gold here lmbdadelta's red :This mountain of gold is the real thing. All of the ingots piled up here are real, pure gold! There are absolutely no tricks such as replicas or fakes!! of course she talk about the gold in the golden land and not the gold kruss have. but i dont think kinzo would make 1 bar of fake gold, give it to what-his-name so that more unknow years kruss will use his skills to get the fake gold...

about 'beatrice' i think you kinda overreacting here... i ment the killer, the culrpit.
the culrpit use beatrice name so i call him\her beatrice... O.O am i wrong?

-edit- btw i think in EP5 kruss gold showed up again. not sure...

[Will Wright]

I was implying that Krauss' gold was the real gold. As in 'HE ALREADY FOUND THE GOLD NOW HE IS KILLING EVERYONE SO HE CAN HAVE IT FOR HIMSELF' which would make zero sense. But it would be something worth watching.

[delita-umw-]

@serverwolf: But the one who claims to be Beatrice pretty much has no motivation to be the killer. Theres the entire scene with Virgillia and Battler to back that up. So what we can draw from this is either "Beatrice" is at best an accomplice/someone drawn into the plot to murder or is trying to cover up for someone else. If you're referring to the true culprit who is most likely manipulating "Beatrice" or otherwise using the legend of Beatrice, why not just call them the culprit?

@aura: I was actually just joking about not being able to trust that scene, but you raise a fair point, in the same sense that I don't think Shannon and George actually meet up every game to talk about their lovely future together. If so though, what are you suggesting takes place? I have enough trust in Ryukishi to believe that a meeting between Natsuhi and Krauss takes place, but if its not for the gold ingot, then what?

I guess it could be a scene using the gold as a metaphor for a strategy meeting on how they will deceive the rest of the family could work. Any other thoughts?

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Will Wright

I was implying that Krauss' gold was the real gold. As in 'HE ALREADY FOUND THE GOLD NOW HE IS KILLING EVERYONE SO HE CAN HAVE IT FOR HIMSELF' which would make zero sense. But it would be something worth watching.

I just don't get why you like Krauss Culprit so much. I've never seen anything substantial come from it at all. In fact he dies just about as often as Natsuhi does.

But as a comedy theory...

[delita-umw-]

Krauss secretly finds the gold and kill everyone in order to fulfill his ultimate fantasy....MAID-IN-HEAVEN!!!

[AuraTwilight]

i dont think kinzo would make 1 bar of fake gold, give it to what-his-name so that more unknow years kruss will use his skills to get the fake gold...

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that we can't discount the possibility that neither events actually happened, at all.

about 'beatrice' i think you kinda overreacting here... i ment the killer, the culrpit.
the culrpit use beatrice name so i call him\her beatrice... O.O am i wrong?

It'd probably be best to just say "The Culprit", since Beatrice is not necessarily the Culprit and we have too many goddamn Beatrices running around in this series as it is.

@aura: I was actually just joking about not being able to trust that scene, but you raise a fair point, in the same sense that I don't think Shannon and George actually meet up every game to talk about their lovely future together. If so though, what are you suggesting takes place? I have enough trust in Ryukishi to believe that a meeting between Natsuhi and Krauss takes place, but if its not for the gold ingot, then what?

Well, assuming Krauss and Natsuhi did meet (and I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, I don't necessarily doubt that Krauss's ingot exists), they could've been talking about all sort of shit. "Hey, we need to dump the body" or "hey, what happens if the siblings ask" or "Ever notice that we've never seen Shannon or Kanon at the same time?" or "so i herd u like OVA DA CLIFFs..." etc...

Also the Golden Land is the moon, you dolts. The sweetfish river is obviously THE MILKY WAY.

[Cao Ni Ma]

That whole scene was fake because the gold bar was inside a hidden room hth.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

It'd probably be best to just say "The Culprit", since Beatrice is not necessarily the Culprit and we have too many goddamn Beatrices running around in this series as it is.

Ah yes, I can see it now. A flabbergasted Battler standing before 17 blonde-wig wearers, exasperated and exclaiming:

"Wait wait wait, is anybody here not Beatrice?"

[AuraTwilight]

"Battler-kuuuun~!"

"....George. That better not be your hand on my ass, I swear to fucking god."

[Pikumin]

About the Krauss gold bar thing, what if it was given to him by Yasu? In the second game when "Beatrice" approaches Rosa in the rose garden, she states that "It could have been any of the siblings" that she approached. Based on this, it can be assumed that Yasu tries to enlist the help of one of the siblings(and maybe the rest of the adults later) in each game, in order to help her carry out her plan.

I propose that in the first game, Yasu approached Krauss, and convinced him to play along by offering him the gold, giving him one ingot to prove that they exist.

[AuraTwilight]

But he dies in the First Twilight. What did he help with?