To Aru Majutsu no Index - Light Novel - Power Level Discussion

[Pablete]

I doubt someone with good reflexes and strength could lose to him like a Saint.

[LevelSeven]

Originally Posted by Pablete

Im pretty sure spells like Grand quake and Cocytus Reversal screams end of the world.

are this spells of deinsleif-marian?
but the gods she summons arent on 100%, she can only use a fraction, and from what NT10 showed us, she can make spells on the scale of destroying a city
pendex's powers are also mountain-buster at most :/

^i had a long discussion with doom-paperclip about thor vs double-saint acqua, and at the end, i think the chances for acqua to win are maybe 35-65 (if not lesser :/ )

[Pablete]

Those are Index's.

[SimoHalo]

Originally Posted by Pablete

I doubt someone with good reflexes and strength could lose to him like a Saint.

I'm pretty sure he would curbstomp someone like Kanzaki, reflexes doesn't matter when the world teleports you into his attacks

[Pablete]

His attacks are on the level of a human fist fight.

Saints are like hitting a wall.

[SimoHalo]

Originally Posted by Pablete

His attacks are on the level of a human fist fight.

Saints are like hitting a wall.

He has superstrength with his belt and it's implied that he can also use his lightning blades while in Almighty mode

[Pablete]

He no longer can use the blades powered by Mjolnir.

And there is no such implications about Almighty mode using lightning. NT10 made clear he can switch the world and fist fight but making him unable to do more.

[SimoHalo]

Originally Posted by Pablete

He no longer can use the blades powered by Mjolnir.

And there is no such implications about Almighty mode using lightning. NT10 made clear he can switch the world and fist fight but making him unable to do more.

He says that he simply added the other things, like the belt and the lightning

“This is all I have. From beginning to end, it’s nothing but this. With Mjölnir’s support, I can add in the fusion blades and make it a little more acrobatic, but this is all I have now. To be blunt, this is your chance. You’ll never have a better opportunity.”

Even with that incomplete power, he had fought over one hundred Gremlin members and defeated them all unscathed. Even if he enjoyed attacking at his enemy’s weak points, he had still been taking on almost the entire organization that had caused so much chaos in the world.

There is no mention that he using his Almighty spell stops him from using his other gear, and since it's mentioned that him only using his Almighty mode is "incomplete" it's safe to deduce that with Mjolnir support and his other spiritual items he is "complete"

[Pablete]

It's in the text, with Mjolnir he adds the blades.

Without her he can't.

[SimoHalo]

Originally Posted by Pablete

It's in the text, with Mjolnir he adds the blades.

Without her he can't.

He still can use his superstrength, and in a battle of attrition he would win.

[allfictions]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

@allfictions
I dont think i read it wrong :/ , which spell allows Index to destroy the planet? (Yes, she didnt show her full powers, but she isnt a majin either), than, marian deinsleif seems to above gungnir-levinia and almighty-thor, how? Gungnir-Levinia should be on par with alm-thor or under him, since the best she will gain is a draw....

Furthermore, deinself-marian should be under gung-levinia and alm-thor, i would say that pendex and dein-marian are on par... (the gods are slow and instable (to some extent) (to be seen in NT10) )....

Oh, yeah, they placed dein-marian above majin othinus and majin ollerus -_-

Dude, you asked for planet busters, all three are:

1. Pendex has many advantages in her favour. One, as mentionned by Pablete, she probably has in store one, if not all, Grand Magic(s), certain spells that take effect on a world wide scale like Angel Fall: Earth Shaker, Phantom Hound, and Cocytus Replica. Two, she is freaking Pendex, she sure as hell going to analyze the shit out of Almighty Thor and find a counter to it.
2. Even if Thor doesn't have the same knowledge as Touma nad Othinus to make Fake Gungnir destroy the world, we are still talking about a lance that never fails to reach its target. Just by that Thor is already screwed.
3. For Marian, it's quite simple. Not only does she have the powers of her sword sheated (die from fear, black hole, etc), but, if she does not put a barrier once she unsheats it, it would create phenomenon similar Angel Fall or the power could have exceeded the limits of the world itself and destroy it. Seriously, you can't really argue against that, and this is also why she is als superior to Othinus 50/50, who needs Gungnir to cut away Phases.

kanzaki

Kazakiri. And if you look carefully, she is actually a bit below Gabriel (and Marian), since she fought with it almost equally, which I think is what her position means on the chart. As an aside, Leivinia couldn't beat her with her Gungnir relying on someone's knowledge of the weapon, which someone from the Science Side probably don't know about.

white wing accel is above them (i like this part but i still dont understand why someone places whitewingaccel -who has little (VERY little) feats- above universe buster majin othinus and magic-side-solo'er ollerus :-/ )

Same argument as Kazakiri for White Winged Accel: his position compared to Archangel Gabriel. Also, it's not planet buster Othinus, it's 50/50 Othinus.

The part for aiwass: i said this because they place aleister on par with him and gungnir-othinus slightly under them and the other gods -_- shouldnt he be....... well, be the strongest?

To take your argument from earlier, you do realize Aiwass has actually shown few, very few feats, right? All we know is that:

1. It knocks everyone out when it appears.
2. No one from the Aeon of Osiris can defeat him (including Christian Angels).
3. Even after being destroyed, he can be reborn every few 10,000 to 100,000 years.

That's it. Compared to it, we know/have been shown that Aleister:

1. Was Aiwass' student and wrote the Book of the Law that might usher the Aeon of Horus, as such, there is no reason to not think Aleister is in the Aeon of Horus (further confirmed by his lecture to Fiamma).
2. Aleister was the one to bind Aiwass to his city's dispersions of AIM fields.
3. He is omnipresent.
4. He possesses a wand (Blasting Rod) that can apparently bypass the concept of an otherwise ultimate defense (Holy Right).
5. He can break and reach Phases (and even the Pure World beneath it all), and one inaccessible and unknown to Othinus with her Gungnir.
6. He can litterally create and destroy philosophical/psychological concepts of mankind's thought.

And then we have True Gremlin, who explicitely laugh at Aiwass being a failure, which I don't think beings inferior to it or not understanding it could do.

So no, Aiwass is not the strongest anymore, and since a long time. I am surprised you haven't realized this sooner.

Btw: if this isnt a who beats who chart, what does it show?

Everyone's own relative strenght in-universe, from street level to city buster to country buster to planet buster. That doesn't necessarily imply a relation between everyone's relative strenght compared to each others.

[LevelSeven]

Spoiler for allfictions:

Originally Posted by allfictions

Pendex has many advantages in her favour. One, as mentionned by Pablete, she probably has in store one, if not all, Grand Magic(s), certain spells that take effect on a world wide scale like Angel Fall: Earth Shaker, Phantom Hound, and Cocytus Replica. Two, she is freaking Pendex, she sure as hell going to analyze the shit out of Almighty Thor and find a counter to it.

i forgot the "analyze"-part true, she would find a weakness in his spell :/

Even if Thor doesn't have the same knowledge as Touma nad Othinus to make Fake Gungnir destroy the world, we are still talking about a lance that never fails to reach its target. Just by that Thor is already screwed.

and alimgthy thor can, from the wiki:
This magic moves the entire world around him to place him in a position where he can easily defeat his enemy or win.Indeed, even if his target is in the other side of the world, the ability allows him to move the target towards him.It operates automatically, adjusting position and distance such that none of the enemy's attacks can reach him and that he is in the ideal position to attack, such that a win or draw are the only outcomes.
so, going by the things which was stated from both powers, gungnir would never miss thor and thor would always dodge gungnir really paradox both are in a draw, yes, birdway would blow up the planet, both would die, so it would be a draw

For Marian, it's quite simple. Not only does she have the powers of her sword sheated (die from fear, black hole, etc), but, if she does not put a barrier once she unsheats it, it would create phenomenon similar Angel Fall or the power could have exceeded the limits of the world itself and destroy it. Seriously, you can't really argue against that, and this is also why she is als superior to Othinus 50/50, who needs Gungnir to cut away Phases.

if i remember correctly, othinus said that if she had her powrs she could blow up marian+deinsleif in a second :/ but im not sure if othinus meant her 50/50 mode or 100% mode
either way, (if i remember correctly) the text also said that she needed this space because she wouldnt be able to control deinsleif and that its powers was reduced so that a human could use it (which also resulted in the need of a special space and the weakened/super-nerfed+"instable" gods)...

Kazakiri. And if you look carefully, she is actually a bit below Gabriel (and Marian), since she fought with it almost equally, which I think is what her position means on the chart. As an aside, Leivinia couldn't beat her with her Gungnir relying on someone's knowledge of the weapon, which someone from the Science Side probably don't know about.

? i cant remember that kazakiri fought against birdway, or that cirdway fought against gabriel

Same argument as Kazakiri for White Winged Accel: his position compared to Archangel Gabriel. Also, it's not planet buster Othinus, it's 50/50 Othinus.

and, 50/50 othinus is strong enoughh to take on the entire world and win :/ (or lose :/ )

To take your argument from earlier, you do realize Aiwass has actually shown few, very few feats, right? All we know is that:

1. It knocks everyone out when it appears.
2. No one from the Aeon of Osiris can defeat him (including Christian Angels).
3. Even after being destroyed, he can be reborn every few 10,000 to 100,000 years.

true, he has very few feats

Was Aiwass' student and wrote the Book of the Law that might usher the Aeon of Horus, as such, there is no reason to not think Aleister is in the Aeon of Horus (further confirmed by his lecture to Fiamma).

only want to point out that if majin was able to hurt him (since they are osiris beings (mostlikely because of relying on megic/religion/etc) he mostlikely isnt in the aeon of horus, at least not now...

He possesses a wand (Blasting Rod) that can apparently bypass the concept of an otherwise ultimate defense (Holy Right).

to be fair, HR and fiamma havent been on their 100% unlike aleister...

He can break and reach Phases (and even the Pure World beneath it all), and one inaccessible and unknown to Othinus with her Gungnir.

- what was only possible because othinus first used her gungnir so that all phases vanished (if i understood aleisters explanation about the "how he managed to find them" correctly) :/

And then we have True Gremlin, who explicitely laugh at Aiwass being a failure, which I don't think beings inferior to it or not understanding it could do.

IF they actually know what aiwass truly is, certainly, he existed way before aleister was born and mostlikely he is older than all of the majns together....
btw, looking down on others cant really show how strong they are, awaki showed this in vol.6/7? or was it 8?, the part where he laughed at accel :/ yes, she understaminated him despite having the knowledge about him, the same for the gods

So no, Aiwass is not the strongest anymore, and since a long time. I am surprised you haven't realized this sooner.

not really, aleister was injured by majins, yes, we dont know if they are from horus or osiris, while i tend to say that they are mostlikely from the osiris aeon, the other way is still possible...
so, majins hurt aleister, aiwass stated that horus-beings cant lose to osiris-beings, conclusion, aleister isnt from the aeon of hhorus, of course, this is my speculation :/

Everyone's own relative strenght in-universe, from street level to city buster to country buster to planet buster. That doesn't necessarily imply a relation between everyone's relative strenght compared to each others.

thank you very much

[Miraluka]

Tho'r skill isn't 100% guaranteed.

Just like Norse's themes. There is no such thing as absolutes. Afterall even Odin's died with his spear and Thor with his hammer as well.

[allfictions]

Spoiler for @LevelSeven:

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

and alimgthy thor can, from the wiki:
This magic moves the entire world around him to place him in a position where he can easily defeat his enemy or win.Indeed, even if his target is in the other side of the world, the ability allows him to move the target towards him.It operates automatically, adjusting position and distance such that none of the enemy's attacks can reach him and that he is in the ideal position to attack, such that a win or draw are the only outcomes.
so, going by the things which was stated from both powers, gungnir would never miss thor and thor would always dodge gungnir really paradox both are in a draw, yes, birdway would blow up the planet, both would die, so it would be a draw

Yeah, it's like that Chinese tale about the spear and the shield

A man was trying to sell a spear and a shield. When asked how good his spear was, he said that his spear could pierce any shield. Then, when asked how good his shield was, he said that it could defend from all spear attacks. Then one person asked him what would happen if he were to take his spear to strike his shield; the seller could not answer.

if i remember correctly, othinus said that if she had her powrs she could blow up marian+deinsleif in a second :/ but im not sure if othinus meant her 50/50 mode or 100% mode

Need a quote on that If I'm proven wrong, I will concede.

either way, (if i remember correctly) the text also said that she needed this space because she wouldnt be able to control deinsleif and that its powers was reduced so that a human could use it

Wasn't that Leivinia?

? i cant remember that kazakiri fought against birdway, or that cirdway fought against gabriel

I expressed myself badly here, what I meant is that, in a hypothetical fight, Leivinia with fake Gungnir wouldn't be able to use it against Kazakiri as she lacks knowledge of the weapon (which Leivinia needs to use it as she doesn't know its true proprieties).

and, 50/50 othinus is strong enoughh to take on the entire world and win :/ (or lose :/ )

That's not what planet buster means. It means you can destroy the world, and willingly at that. Othinus can't, or she wouldn't need to be 100% to create Phases.

only want to point out that if majin was able to hurt him (since they are osiris beings (mostlikely because of relying on megic/religion/etc) he mostlikely isnt in the aeon of horus, at least not now...

Or another possibility is that the Magic Gods are in the Aeon of Horus themselves.

to be fair, HR and fiamma havent been on their 100% unlike aleister...

Even not complete, HR was set to make him win, using the correct force needed to win against the force used, and defended him from threats even him wasn't aware of.

- what was only possible because othinus first used her gungnir so that all phases vanished (if i understood aleisters explanation about the "how he managed to find them" correctly) :/

It doesn't mean he couldn't break through Phases anyway, since his Archetype Controller is somewhat similar to it too.

IF they actually know what aiwass truly is, certainly, he existed way before aleister was born and mostlikely he is older than all of the majns together....

*shrug* Who knows?

btw, looking down on others cant really show how strong they are, awaki showed this in vol.6/7? or was it 8?, the part where he laughed at accel :/ yes, she understaminated him despite having the knowledge about him, the same for the gods

I really doubt the Magic Gods are in the same situation. They predicted its failure after all.

so, majins hurt aleister, aiwass stated that horus-beings cant lose to osiris-beings, conclusion, aleister isnt from the aeon of hhorus, of course, this is my speculation :/

And beings from the Aeon of Horus fighting against one another?

Originally Posted by Miraluka

Tho'r skill isn't 100% guaranteed.

Just like Norse's themes. There is no such thing as absolutes. Afterall even Odin's died with his spear and Thor with his hammer as well.

It theorically wouldn't be that impossible, like someone pointed out in the ToAru threads a long time ago (I like archive binging):

Originally Posted by Marcus H

If only the ways to work around powerful weapons is the same as in Horizon:

Odin's Gungnir = Exploit the reaction times of the wielder and overwhelm her with attacks so many that at least one would hit.
Thor's Mjolnir = Reflect Attack! The incoming force would be much higher than the wielder's defense.
Freyr's Sword = Create a strategy wherein victory would be disadvantageous.

But yeah, as pointed out in the original myths, if Freyr hadn't given up his sword, he wouldn't be killed by Surtr during Ragnarok, and Surtr would have been defeated before he destroy everything.

[LevelSeven]

Spoiler for allfictions:

Originally Posted by allfictions

Yeah, it's like that Chinese tale about the spear and the shield

Need a quote on that If I'm proven wrong, I will concede.

Spoiler for nt10:

“A sword that closes the path to the power of the gods…no, the path to heaven,” muttered Othinus.

Before the battle even began, Marian had likely used the sword to cut through the surrounding space and create a sort of barrier around the area. If she had not, the appearance of the different mythical figures would have created a mysterious phenomenon much like Angel Fall. Or the power could have exceeded the limits of the world itself and everything would have shattered like glass.

Having destroyed the world herself, Othinus knew that was no exaggeration.

“That truly is an appropriate weapon for opposing a magic god.”

If Othinus had been at full strength, she could have crushed Marian in a single blow.

There would not even be a need to kill her. She could simply throw her into a world of happiness.

But that was no longer the case.

but i need to say that i think i was wrong with at 50/50, it seems like she really mentioned herself at 100% :/

Wasn't that Leivinia?

true, after rereading it i didnt find the part where the text said that deinsleif was weakened, only that it needed to hold back because it would crush the whole world if it wasnt restrained :/

I expressed myself badly here, what I meant is that, in a hypothetical fight, Leivinia with fake Gungnir wouldn't be able to use it against Kazakiri as she lacks knowledge of the weapon (which Leivinia needs to use it as she doesn't know its true proprieties).

if we allow Index, than yes, she would be able to do it...
if not, i doubt that birdway would have a chance,
and in both cases she would have a hard time if the magic-disruption-aim-field shows up too and injures her each time birdway tries to use a spell :/

That's not what planet buster means. It means you can destroy the world, and willingly at that. Othinus can't, or she wouldn't need to be 100% to create Phases.

i didnt know that this was part of it :/
btw, does accel count as one? the side effects which should have happened after he slowed down the earth (but it didnt...well, cant blame the author, nobody wants to end the story because if the outburst of one 16-yars old boy ) would have been really destuctive :/ and this was with 5 minutes of slowing down :/

Or another possibility is that the Magic Gods are in the Aeon of Horus themselves.

i know, this is why i tried to make clear that only IF the majins are osiris-beings, it would mean that aleister isnt from horus

Even not complete, HR was set to make him win, using the correct force needed to win against the force used, and defended him from threats even him wasn't aware of.

but isnt it a power which was instabl and had a cool-down-time-span? exsecially after he used so much energy in evolving into LSDAP and than re-evolving into a human again :/

It doesn't mean he couldn't break through Phases anyway, since his Archetype Controller is somewhat similar to it too.

as far as the story goes, he didnt do it on his own until now :/ well , i too, think he can do it, but this si speculative, and, we dont really know how his archtype-controller works... it could work via manipulating phases and reaching the desired goal or it could manipulate the minds of every single human on earth and destroy this "archetypes" from their subconscious....
at least, it seems like this is a possibility :/

*shrug* Who knows?

I really doubt the Magic Gods are in the same situation. They predicted its failure after all.

they have been human and than turned gods, aleister also fails (shiage), it wouldnt be so unbelievable that they understaminate beings which didnt show their full power, aiwass only showed up once, in vol.19, and than he only had a dialogue (or two) with aleister, nothing that would mean indicate for the majins that aiwass is a great danger for them... exspecially if you look at othinus, shhe also looked down on others, afterall, she was a god :/ and the true-gemlin-majins are even more powerful (but still human (somehow) )

And beings from the Aeon of Horus fighting against one another?

yeahh, but from what i understood how kamachi defines osiris and horus:
osiris:
is the thinking in two sides, like black and white, good, and bad, heaven and hell... this would include the magic gods scince magic is based on human history/legend/fairy tales/religion, most of the things, are based around the "yin-yang" concept...
horus:
i once saw a quote of aleister, from the LN (or real life :/ ), it said that, (i hope it comes close to the acual quote )
"the will should become the law of the world" (or something like that) (meaning (for me), that there isnt good/evil, yin/yang,darkness/light.... only the Will of a being to do what they want to do, nothing with morals or eithics.... )

if this is how kamachi/aleister defines the aeons, i dont see why/how a majin would reach the horus-aeon :/

[Hiromin]

Originally Posted by allfictions

Or another possibility is that the Magic Gods are in the Aeon of Horus themselves.

This would explain why they called Othinus a failure too. Failure here would mean that Othinus failed to reach the Aeon of Horus, unlike the other Magic Gods who did.


EDIT

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

this is how kamachi/aleister defines the aeons, i dont see why/how a majin would reach the horus-aeon :/

Unless they could actually have freed themselves from the set of laws that they were bound by previously, and have reached the state where they are only submitted to their own free will.
Also, about what Aleister said, I saw that somewhere too and I think you are right that Aeons are devided that way. But I forgot if it was To Aru's Aleister or the real one who said that

[Doom_Paperclip]

I have a few opinions on almost all the discussions that are currently ongoing here, so here's my two cents:

1) On Almighty Thor:

I believe that Almighty Thor is currently in the right spot on the chart. Being incredibly broken, he could wipe the floor with even Saint level characters, but at the same time he doesn't reach the levels of the absolute monsters like Fiamma, the Angels, the Magic Gods ect...

2) On 50/50 Othinus:

50/50 Othinus, on the other hand, seems to be ranked too low to me. Keep in mind that, her ultimate Gungnir and Crossbow attacks aside, 50/50 Othinus has every bit as much power as Othinus with Gungnir or the Fairy Spell. Those two do nothing to increase Othinus' power, they just help her to control the power she already has. As such, anything Othinus can do with Gungnir, she can do without it. That includes breaking the world and manipulating phases. It's just that, as long as she remained burdened with her 50/50 flaw, even rewriting the world wouldn't help her, as a calamity would soon befall her in order to balance her success.

3) On Almighty Thor vs 50/50 Othinus:

Almighty Thor is certainly amazing, but I don't believe he could stand up to Othinus, even with the 50/50 flaw. Keep in mind that Othinus has also shown the ability to move the world and, unlike Almighty Thor, she can move the heavens too via her Bone Boat spell. Granted, Almighty Thor's power acts automatically, whereas the Bone Boat does not, but Othinus should be able to negate Almighty Thor's power by forcefully twisting the power of the Bone Boat in order to hold the world still, much like she was able to forcefully twist the Fairy Spell in order to control her powers instead of losing them or how she and Ollerus can forcefully twist the Hliðskjálf spell, which ought to have no offensive power, into a mysterious attack that cannot be understood.

4) On Gungnir Birdway:

Does she even deserve to be on this chart? She can't actually use the Gungnir attack against anyone except Touma or Othinus, since her imitation Gungnir needs to extract the memories of the real Gungnir's attack in order to reproduce it.

In any case, assuming she can use it, Gungnir would certainly place her above Almighty Thor. Almighty Thor moves the world, but Gungnir first breaks the world and then breaks you by bashing you with its remains. By the time it is thrown, Almighty Thor would have no world to move. Not that Birdway would have any means of enjoying her victory, since she would either be broken apart together with the world or, in the best case scenario, stranded in the Black World with no hope of salvation.

5) On Dainsleif Marian:

She doesn't deserve to be above 50/50 Othinus. The only reason she ranks so high, if I understood correctly, is because Dainsleif can potentially destroy the world, but 50/50 Othinus can do that too.

World destroying aside, Marian summoned calamities are only imitations of the real things, pieces of phases shaped through people's fears rather than the genuine article, so they lack the power of entities like Gabriel and are beneath Saint level. The Vishnu Avatara attack would be quite deadly, but due to the limitations of Dainsleif, we do not know how powerful it is exactly. We do know, however, that it only lasted long enough to destroy the Marian's summons before dissipating. A Saint level opponent might be able to endure it long enough to survive.

6) On Pendex:

I won't argue her position on the chart. However, I doubt she can actually destroy a planet. She probably has knowledge on how to construct a spell to destroy a planet, but all spells of that scale, like Angel Fall or the Brahmastra, seem to require preparations for anyone who isn't on the level of an Archangel or above. I doubt even the 103000 grimoires would let her waive those requirements. She probably wouldn't be able to use one of them on the fly.

7) On Aiwass and the Aeons:

We currently lack enough information to produce accurate speculation. That doesn't mean we cannot speculate away and have a blast whilst doing it. Just don't expect to get within 1 light year of the truth.

[Inept Forum User]

Just wondering, how much would you say indirect effects and potential consequences of powers are included into calculating positions on the pyramid?

[LevelSeven]

Originally Posted by Inept Forum User

Just wondering, how much would you say indirect effects and potential consequences of powers are included into calculating positions on the pyramid?

i would say: none!

aleister is depicted as one of the most powerful beings, this would mean that he has powers at top-tier, the problem is that at least one power (archetype-thhing) is messing around with phases and history and mankind and whatnot...

if he needed to kill the majins, maybe he would need to use this controller and erase thheir respective "religions", which would change the whole mankind....

or aiwass, the one time he showed up almost killed LO (and mostlikely the sisters) :/

or, othiinus, ahh, a good example is gabriel... one of his attacks would destroy 50% of the world, which COULD influence the moon and completly destroy the magical system which created him :/

and othher one-shot powers, like gungnir-birdway :/ exspecially since it can ONLY be used agaisnt othinus (touma didnt matter) and only with the help of Index :/

[dark44]

how is the accadamy rank system work strenght or time of reaching lvl 5 i mean if it is strength that mean misaki is stronger than lvl 6 and 7 or her mental power work on them but not the frist four?