AnimeSuki Forums

Chiibi · 2012-04-03, 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenjiharima

later they regret not paying attention to the good guy.

I've never read one that DID.

Besides, tsunderes ARE good guys!

NonExstX · 2012-04-03, 20:03

As others have said it mirrors reality for some people.
Not a hard and fast rule for everyone by any means but as far as a lot of the modern media fed mainstream and old school people with traditional gender roles it fits in some cases.

Women do not go for bad guys, they go for traits the bad guys possess.
Usually, charisma, skill at something, perseverance, daring, scathing wit, confidence, spontaneity, and style.
These keep a woman's heart and mind interested.

The self proclaimed nice guys are usually just doormats with an inferiority complex. They put women on pedestals. And although this is endearing, women realize that they can get all the benefirts from the nice guy without having to actually date him.

If the nice guy would adopt the attributes of the bad guy but with pure intentions, then he would be appealing to more ladies.

judasmartel · 2012-04-03, 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by NonExstX

Usually, charisma, skill at something, perseverance, daring, scathing wit, confidence, spontaneity, and style.
These keep a woman's heart and mind interested.

The self proclaimed nice guys are usually just doormats with an inferiority complex. They put women on pedestals. And although this is endearing, women realize that they can get all the benefirts from the nice guy without having to actually date him.

If the nice guy would adopt the attributes of the bad guy but with pure intentions, then he would be appealing to more ladies.

In other words, BADASSERY, not JERKASSERY. Which means nice guys can be more interesting if they can take levels in badass without throwing away their innate kindness. Thus, nice guys don't need to jerk up just to get their women. They just need to grow some backbone.

But then again, is it me or is being a badass without being a dick just that difficult?

Chiibi · 2012-04-03, 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by judasmartel

But then again, is it me or is being a badass without being a dick just that difficult?

For an anime character, no. For a real man.....well.....

You would have to do something really.....great.

judasmartel · 2012-04-03, 20:49

Hmm... I agree that badassery requires some amount of dick, but I would like to believe that to be manly means you just need to exude an aura that pretty much says, "Don't mess with me and I won't mess with you".

For non-action guys (so to speak), you just need to know how to defend yourself in case some scumbag wants to try something on you, like, "dude, don't push me, you won't like me when I'm pissed."

NonExstX · 2012-04-03, 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by judasmartel

In other words, BADASSERY, not JERKASSERY. Which means nice guys can be more interesting if they can take levels in badass without throwing away their innate kindness. Thus, nice guys don't need to jerk up just to get their women. They just need to grow some backbone.

But then again, is it me or is being a badass without being a dick just that difficult?

Some guys just have the right combination of aspects from experiences.
Other guys just have to develop it.
Sort of like martial science in a way.
Of course you can kill the opponent with your skill but you rather use it to either gently disable them or even your spirit to stop them from wanting to physically fight.

Hard to really explain in words though. Like walking on a tightrope. Just enough balance so it works.

Then again women vary so much that even a nice guy without the 'badassery' can get a girl by being just who he is.

Maybe a smaller pool of choices.

It is similar to the generally unattractive girl who has the great personality, intelligence, kindness, etc. Since she has less guys approaching her, she usually meets a guy through them connecting through work, friends, or hobbies.

Whereas the more attractive ladies have a ton of guys approaching even though their personality may not be as endearing.

judasmartel · 2012-04-03, 21:12

Heh, it's something called "the alpha phenomenon". It has been known that in the animal kingdom, the alpha male almost always gets laid by the females while the alpha female has a lot of males competing to get her laid. In other words, being a beta SUCKS.

Or at least that's what seduction training programs lead people to believe. But yes, if you want to get laid every single freaking night or to get to a nigh-unapproachable crush, you NEED to be an alpha or you will have the short end of the stick 99% OF THE GODDAMN TIME. No such BS as "Be yourself" if all you want is to have as many women as you like or if you want to get a REALLY stubborn woman to like you.

BUT, if you just want to experience true love, as what would alpha guys say, "settling for the scraps because you can't get the best ones", well, yeah, awesomeness is still a criterion, but at least you don't have to poison yourself with testosterone or whatever. You get to stay whoever you are, little to no change of character necessary.

blue_sora · 2012-04-04, 09:30

You know, this might me think that now even Western novels have shoujo-ish elements. Hunger Games and Twilight comes to mind as they both have prominent love triangle.

But then actually even in the West has lots of novels where the girl chooses the bad boy over the nice guy (sweeping off her feet) in the romance novels. So actually the West and East doesn't have much difference in this matter.

Fuyuno · 2012-04-08, 18:58

I have no idea what this thread's purpose except a whiny shounen/seinen fanboy complaining why "bad boys" stole the spotlight from the "nicer" ones. I hate that too but please look at other perspective. It just an escapism for teenage girls than anything else. Questioning why there are "bad boys" in shoujo mangas is much like questioning why there are explosions and sexy women in Michael Bay movies. The spent their hard-earned money to see something that they rarely see in real-life. Why bother seeing a nice guy if you can date with him in real-life.

Kameruka · 2012-04-09, 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuyuno

I have no idea what this thread's purpose except a whiny shounen/seinen fanboy complaining why "bad boys" stole the spotlight from the "nicer" ones. I hate that too but please look at other perspective. It just an escapism for teenage girls than anything else. Questioning why there are "bad boys" in shoujo mangas is much like questioning why there are explosions and sexy women in Michael Bay movies. The spent their hard-earned money to see something that they rarely see in real-life. Why bother seeing a nice guy if you can date with him in real-life.

Man I was offended. Nevermind since its true though. Anyway I only concerned with shoujo mangaka is telling "nice boys are crap" than anything else.

judasmartel · 2012-04-09, 06:34

That's not what Kimi no Todoke is saying, though.

Goty · 2012-04-09, 07:34

That is quite true for most shoujo, but not a general rule.
Anyway, it does annoy me sometimes, like in Bokura ga Ita. I can't stand Yano, although i can see why the target audience loves an indecisive prick like him, who always does as he please but gets away with it, simply because he has a charming smile and the skill to turn the tables, making people feel sorry for him (but very little to offer otherwise).

If you want more "realistic" views of romance and life, just try Jousei series.

Fuyuno · 2012-04-12, 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goty

That is quite true for most shoujo, but not a general rule.
Anyway, it does annoy me sometimes, like in Bokura ga Ita. I can't stand Yano, although i can see why the target audience loves an indecisive prick like him, who always does as he please but gets away with it, simply because he has a charming smile and the skill to turn the tables, making people feel sorry for him (but very little to offer otherwise).

I hate to say the same thing again but isn't that what those girls had paid for. They are not spending their hard-earned money to see something like that, cool bishies doing cool thing. They did thing we might consider "morally questionable" or anything like it and get away with it. That was no different any male-oriented shows which had cool femme-fatale who stab enemies(and sometime friends) at their backs and get away with it. Both are equally guilty when it come to escapist fantasies.

Vanguard · 2012-04-28, 05:17

why the girl ignores nice guys?
Simpel Awnsers girls have always been stupid when it comes to love.

judasmartel · 2012-04-28, 05:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanguard

why the girl ignores nice guys?
Simpel Awnsers girls have always been stupid when it comes to love.

Indeed. No wonder seduction programs for douchebags are making money nowadays.

MisaoFan · 2012-04-28, 05:38

Like in romance shounen titles where the idiotic male lead is attracted to the tsundere girl who always physically abuse him, in romance shoujo, the idiotic female lead is so abused by the tsundere boy. So the readers may relate the idiotic leads who falls in love with the tsunderes rather than the nice childhood friends, which may cause debate between the tsundere lovers and tsundere haters.

monsta666 · 2012-04-28, 05:43

I think a big reason is the entertainment factor. If a girl dated a mature, responsible guy that was outstanding the story wouldn't be interesting as their would be no drama. Better to introduce a bad guy that she eventually tames and show all the fallouts tribulations along the way. Also if the guy is made to be too perfect he will alienate the male viewers who watch the show. The writers know what they are doing and there is a reason for their character selections.

You could argue that this constant bombardment of bad guys going with girls has a bad effect on society as it gives the impression to guys that they need to be mean to get a girl while the girl will think that she can tame a bad boy. Both ideas are not true and if people attempt such things for real it is unlikely they will be in a happy relationship (but it could be filled with drama).

judasmartel · 2012-04-28, 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisaoFan

Like in romance shounen titles where the idiotic male lead is attracted to the tsundere girl who always physically abuse him, in romance shoujo, the idiotic female lead is so abused by the tsundere boy. So the readers may relate the idiotic leads who falls in love with the tsunderes rather than the nice childhood friends, which may cause debate between the tsundere lovers and tsundere haters.

The "Tsunderes Always Win" effect, huh...

Well, one research shows that tsunderes always win because their behaviors reflect how people in real life track their relationships with other people. Someone you just met would be reserved towards you, but as you get to know each other better, s/he will show some bits of hir character to you, and that includes her berserk buttons and cooldown buttons, both of which are the most visible in tsunderes.

Kuuderes are so subtle that determining these two buttons is much harder than dealing with a tsundere in general. Shy people are, well, distressed all the time and that's annoying too.

The researcher asked if which of these people they prefer to be with:

- One who's angry all the time
- One who's calm at first, then goes angry
- One who's calm all the time
- One who's angry at first, then goes calm

You pick and you shall see.

Quote:

Originally Posted by monsta666

I think a big reason is the entertainment factor. If a girl dated a mature, responsible guy that was outstanding the story wouldn't be interesting as their would be no drama. Better to introduce a bad guy that she eventually tames and show all the fallouts tribulations along the way. Also if the guy is made to be too perfect he will alienate the male viewers who watch the show. The writers know what they are doing and there is a reason for their character selections.

You could argue that this constant bombardment of bad guys going with girls has a bad effect on society as it gives the impression to guys that they need to be mean to get a girl while the girl will think that she can tame a bad boy. Both ideas are not true and if people attempt such things for real it is unlikely they will be in a happy relationship (but it could be filled with drama).

After all, what's life without a little drama? Too bad a lot of people assume love works that way and oddly enough, they got what they wish for: a bunch of wrecks in their relationships which are too much for them to handle.

warita · 2012-04-28, 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by monsta666

I

You could argue that this constant bombardment of bad guys going with girls has a bad effect on society as it gives the impression to guys that they need to be mean to get a girl while the girl will think that she can tame a bad boy. Both ideas are not true and if people attempt such things for real it is unlikely they will be in a happy relationship (but it could be filled with drama).

I think this is very true!!!

Nightbat® · 2012-04-28, 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by monsta666

You could argue that this constant bombardment of bad guys going with girls has a bad effect on society as it gives the impression to guys that they need to be mean to get a girl while the girl will think that she can tame a bad boy. Both ideas are not true and if people attempt such things for real it is unlikely they will be in a happy relationship (but it could be filled with drama).

Well, I'm unsure about the bad effect on society, but I've been around long enough to see that "Bad boys get the girl" (though the sexes are interchangable to some degree)
and the problem isn't creating a happy relation, it's to get the prize, once you have it, it's a lot easier

2012-04-03, 20:03	Link #82
NonExstX Sub Human Reject Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: USA	As others have said it mirrors reality for some people. Not a hard and fast rule for everyone by any means but as far as a lot of the modern media fed mainstream and old school people with traditional gender roles it fits in some cases. Women do not go for bad guys, they go for traits the bad guys possess. Usually, charisma, skill at something, perseverance, daring, scathing wit, confidence, spontaneity, and style. These keep a woman's heart and mind interested. The self proclaimed nice guys are usually just doormats with an inferiority complex. They put women on pedestals. And although this is endearing, women realize that they can get all the benefirts from the nice guy without having to actually date him. If the nice guy would adopt the attributes of the bad guy but with pure intentions, then he would be appealing to more ladies. __________________ "I don't want anything. I don't want anybody. That's the worst part. When the want goes, that's bad." (Doug Stanhope as Eddie on Louie)

2012-04-09, 07:34	Link #92
Goty Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005	That is quite true for most shoujo, but not a general rule. Anyway, it does annoy me sometimes, like in Bokura ga Ita. I can't stand Yano, although i can see why the target audience loves an indecisive prick like him, who always does as he please but gets away with it, simply because he has a charming smile and the skill to turn the tables, making people feel sorry for him (but very little to offer otherwise). If you want more "realistic" views of romance and life, just try Jousei series. Last edited by Goty; 2012-04-09 at 13:56.

2012-04-03, 20:49	Link #85
judasmartel Senior Member Author Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Cainta, Rizal, Philippines	Hmm... I agree that badassery requires some amount of dick, but I would like to believe that to be manly means you just need to exude an aura that pretty much says, "Don't mess with me and I won't mess with you". For non-action guys (so to speak), you just need to know how to defend yourself in case some scumbag wants to try something on you, like, "dude, don't push me, you won't like me when I'm pissed."

2012-04-03, 21:12	Link #87
judasmartel Senior Member Author Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Cainta, Rizal, Philippines	Heh, it's something called "the alpha phenomenon". It has been known that in the animal kingdom, the alpha male almost always gets laid by the females while the alpha female has a lot of males competing to get her laid. In other words, being a beta SUCKS. Or at least that's what seduction training programs lead people to believe. But yes, if you want to get laid every single freaking night or to get to a nigh-unapproachable crush, you NEED to be an alpha or you will have the short end of the stick 99% OF THE GODDAMN TIME. No such BS as "Be yourself" if all you want is to have as many women as you like or if you want to get a REALLY stubborn woman to like you. BUT, if you just want to experience true love, as what would alpha guys say, "settling for the scraps because you can't get the best ones", well, yeah, awesomeness is still a criterion, but at least you don't have to poison yourself with testosterone or whatever. You get to stay whoever you are, little to no change of character necessary.

2012-04-04, 09:30	Link #88
blue_sora Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011	You know, this might me think that now even Western novels have shoujo-ish elements. Hunger Games and Twilight comes to mind as they both have prominent love triangle. But then actually even in the West has lots of novels where the girl chooses the bad boy over the nice guy (sweeping off her feet) in the romance novels. So actually the West and East doesn't have much difference in this matter.

2012-04-08, 18:58	Link #89
Fuyuno Banned Join Date: Oct 2011	I have no idea what this thread's purpose except a whiny shounen/seinen fanboy complaining why "bad boys" stole the spotlight from the "nicer" ones. I hate that too but please look at other perspective. It just an escapism for teenage girls than anything else. Questioning why there are "bad boys" in shoujo mangas is much like questioning why there are explosions and sexy women in Michael Bay movies. The spent their hard-earned money to see something that they rarely see in real-life. Why bother seeing a nice guy if you can date with him in real-life.

2012-04-09, 06:34	Link #91
judasmartel Senior Member Author Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Cainta, Rizal, Philippines	That's not what Kimi no Todoke is saying, though.

2012-04-28, 05:17	Link #94
Vanguard Member Join Date: Oct 2011	why the girl ignores nice guys? Simpel Awnsers girls have always been stupid when it comes to love.

2012-04-28, 05:43	Link #97
monsta666 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: London, England Age: 37	I think a big reason is the entertainment factor. If a girl dated a mature, responsible guy that was outstanding the story wouldn't be interesting as their would be no drama. Better to introduce a bad guy that she eventually tames and show all the fallouts tribulations along the way. Also if the guy is made to be too perfect he will alienate the male viewers who watch the show. The writers know what they are doing and there is a reason for their character selections. You could argue that this constant bombardment of bad guys going with girls has a bad effect on society as it gives the impression to guys that they need to be mean to get a girl while the girl will think that she can tame a bad boy. Both ideas are not true and if people attempt such things for real it is unlikely they will be in a happy relationship (but it could be filled with drama).