[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Renall

I'm just not seeing any sanity to doing it if the gold was initially fake. Might as well just leave the fake gold with a note taped to it: "Gold is mostly fake, but nobody knows that; have fun scamming people, love Grandpa."

Now, you're talking as if Kinzo trusted his children, or intended for one of them to solve the epitaph and get the gold. Take it that way.

Q: Why does the epitaph exists?
A: To make someone else the heir beside his children.

Q: Why does the gold exists?
A: To make it's owner the practical heir of the Ushiromiya, weither or not others accept him/her as the head or not.

That's basically what's being told to us since the start.

Mostly beaten by Chronotrig...

Edit : Going to add, I might have forgotten a scene or two I guess, but from everything I remember the only time Kinzo explicitely told someone they should try to solve the riddle was to Kanon, and never to anyone with his own blood.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Just by the existence of a nine-year-old's riddle book, this level of reasoning is possible.

What do you think, everyone!?

I was with you at first, but that second part seems a bit insane.

Also there's the problem of Erika using "you" in reference to Battler-as-victim, unless that was a translation flourish.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Renall

I was with you at first, but that second part seems a bit insane.

That's sort of the idea, yeah. It's got to be a trick that's utterly ridiculous, but not a complete asspull, and most importantly something that doesn't use the windows.

Originally Posted by Renall

Also there's the problem of Erika using "you" in reference to Battler-as-victim, unless that was a translation flourish.

Well, she's talking to Meta-Battler, and we already know that Battler and Meta-Battler are different people.

She could have meant "you" as in "the victim that the story presents as Battler", which in this theory isn't even our Battler.

[Renall]

So what you're saying is that instead of moving Kanon out of the room to the guestroom, she moved the guestroom in to Kanon? And inside the cousins' room is an entirely different room in which Battler is located?

How did Kanon disappear then? He can't leave.

[UsagiTenpura]

If we're to go into mostly absurd theories, the guest room wasn't a real closed room right? I think Dlanor said something about that. Only the seals are "closed".

So Kanon could've done something like removing the door but leave the chain attached and it wouldn't break any red. If we go into absurd theories it doesn't need to be one very long or complex.

[Jan-Poo]

Well Kaisos you certainly came up with an interesting theory but there are two main problems:

Kanon entered the guestroom
Only Battler left the guestroom

The first tells us that Kanon wasn't originally in the guestroom
the second tells us that Kanon never left the guestroom


the other problem with the crazy matrioska idea is Knox 8.
If Dlanor had a problem with Battler talking about multiple rooms in Kinzo's study, then what about this absolutely odd idea of a room inside a room?
If there is no hint about that, then it can't be possible.

[Renall]

The seals are metaphorical, so I would say removing the door from its hinges etc. constitute breaking the seal.

What Kaisos is suggesting is basically a rewrite of the story. That's perfectly valid, it just seems... to break the laws of physics.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Renall

How did Kanon disappear then? He can't leave.

Sure he can.

Jessica was in the guest room (inside the cousins' room) from the beginning, playing the role of the 'victim'. At some point, before Erika sealed the room (I believe there is a time interval for this, I have to check), Battler entered, and the two of them hid in the closet.

Later, Kanon rescued Battler by closing the chain lock behind him, and then Jessica rescued Kanon by closing the chain lock behind him.

In any case, the important bit of this is the cups and the coins part, not the exact mechanics behind how Battler and Kanon left the room. I say this because otherwise there's absolutely no reason to show that trick to us, and no reason to use it in a montage of closed rooms.

[Jan-Poo]

I think Renall meant to say that there's a red truth that claims that Kanon never left

[Renall]

How would this solution constitute the "key" to the other closed rooms and mysteries, per ryukishi's interview?

EDIT: More specifically, Jan-Poo, that only Battler left, which means no one but Battler can leave the "sub-room." So Kanon can't be rescued, he'd have to leave, which he cannot do.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

the other problem with the crazy matrioska idea is Knox 8.

The cups and the coins mentioned earlier satisfy Knox 8, I think.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Only Battler left the guestroom

Knew I forgot something. Well, there goes that theory. Wooosh.

Well, I can probably still make this work somehow. Kanon could have killed himself and Jessica need not be in the room at all. The important bit, again, is that Kanon never left the guesthouse.

Originally Posted by Renall

How would this solution constitute the "key" to the other closed rooms and mysteries, per ryukishi's interview?

Shkanon is the only other theory that makes any kind of (narrative, if not logical) sense and it really doesn't constitute much of a key either.

Still, maybe it could be something like "the rooms in question aren't in the locations they're presented to be"?

[Jan-Poo]

I guess you could still use some kind of preposterous logic and say that Kanon's real name is Battler. But I already hate the idea of arbitrary name swapping, I dislike even more the idea that a single name can refer to an unspecified number of persons with the same name.

[UsagiTenpura]

It does feel like we're being told "Kanon didn't leave but he stopped existing". Beside furniture death or real death is there any other ways to reason this out?
...Unless something like the room doesn't exist anymore, or the room left Kanon!

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I guess you could still use some kind of preposterous logic and say that Kanon's real name is Battler.

All people can only use their own names, so no, that doesn't work. Name switching doesn't work (in any game, as the text implies when this red is introduced) unless the two people in question are the same person.

[Renall]

"The rooms aren't the rooms they're believed to be" makes sense for a few rooms (ep1 Second Twilight), but not necessarily others.

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

It does feel like we're being told "Kanon didn't leave but he stopped existing". Beside furniture death or real death is there any other ways to reason this out?
...Unless something like the room doesn't exist anymore, or the room left Kanon!

"Kanon doesn't exist in the guestroom because there is no guestroom anymore" is a pretty dirty trick itself, but I guess it's the same logic...

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

It does feel like we're being told "Kanon didn't leave but he stopped existing". Beside furniture death or real death is there any other ways to reason this out?

Alternatively, if I want to keep my theory mostly intact, I could say that Jessica murdered Kanon, whether metaphorically or actually, thus rescuing him from the closed room without allowing him to leave.

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

...Unless something like the room doesn't exist anymore.

What defines a room? How would a room stop being a room, and become part of the outer room?

With the cups, you'd merely have to cut out the bottom. Did Gohda decide to break down the wall or something?

[Jan-Poo]

That's basically it Usagitempura. The witch's thesis is that Kanon magically disappeared.

Erika was pretty sure Kanon had to be inside the guestroom.

What we need to understand is how Kanon could disappear from the room. We have two different theories that can work, but none of them can be used to solve every other closed room so far. So either Ryuukishi was imprecise in his statements or there is another answer.

There is also Battler's comment "is this even mystery? Those people will complain" (something like that) so we need to expect something ridiculous.

"Kanon doesn't exist in the guestroom because there is no guestroom anymore" is a pretty dirty trick itself, but I guess it's the same logic...

The time was stopped so you can't explain it with the final explosion. Plus would it even be all right to say that the guestroom didn't exist anymore and the chainlock is set at the same time?

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

There is also Battler's comment "is this even mystery? Those people will complain" (something like that) so we need to expect something ridiculous.

That's why I brought up cups and coins. It's not a mystery, it's a riddle.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

What defines a room? How would a room stop being a room, and become part of the outer room?

With the cups, you'd merely have to cut out the bottom.

Did Gohda decide to break down the wall or something?

A "room" is essentially an abritrary distinction guided by physical construction. Battler and Dlanor discuss Kinzo's suite in ep5 as being more like a collection of rooms, and the guestroom in ep6 is itself comprised of smaller rooms (closet, bedroom, bathroom).

In theory, I suppose you could arbitrarily define an unbounded area as a "room," then later withdraw that definition. However, I see no particularly sensible reason for anyone to actually do so, nor any sensible way for Beatrice to get away with making such arbitrary declarations with no board logic to back them up.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Renall

In theory, I suppose you could arbitrarily define an unbounded area as a "room," then later withdraw that definition. However, I see no particularly sensible reason for anyone to actually do so, nor any sensible way for Beatrice to get away with making such arbitrary declarations with no board logic to back them up.

Hey, all Lambda says is that Beato's solution "doesn't contradict any red".