Muv-Luv Franchise - Military Tactics, History, & Geo-Politics

[jin jin5000]

Originally Posted by novalysis

This poster for MST3K Mantra.

Seriously, the tech gap seems quite hopeless for humanity. Lasers break everything.

Lazers are hugely impractical in real life. Any of those smokescreen would have killed Lazers in real life no matter how strong it would have been. Lazers are only good under ideal circumstances. Any presence of gas or clouds like those metal dust they use would have nullified it even if it was that strong. Not to mention that if it was that powerful to ionize all the cloud, the BETA around the lux-tan would have been damaged too.

better would be those photon beam or some bullshit like that but Lazers sound awesome and deadly and we arent in physics class anyway

[Craxuan]

That's a pretty comprehensible read all and all - can do away with the fucks, but overall quite entertaining.

[encia]

Originally Posted by jin jin5000

Lazers are hugely impractical in real life. Any of those smokescreen would have killed Lazers in real life no matter how strong it would have been. Lazers are only good under ideal circumstances. Any presence of gas or clouds like those metal dust they use would have nullified it even if it was that strong. Not to mention that if it was that powerful to ionize all the cloud, the BETA around the lux-tan would have been damaged too.

better would be those photon beam or some bullshit like that but Lazers sound awesome and deadly and we arent in physics class anyway

There are workarounds for Laser's "blooming" issues. This is why R&D exist for complex laser weapons. US

Real life USA (via Office of Naval Research) is developing its own BETA Laser style defence. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWdGkb7r1iA

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by encia

There are workarounds for Laser's "blooming" issues. This is why R&D exist for complex laser weapons. US

Real life USA (via Office of Naval Research) is developing its own BETA Laser style defence. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWdGkb7r1iA

Except current doctrine and specs are just for burning out the electronic head of the missile, instead of chopping it up. The higher power lasers take longer and cause more damage to itself than the target over long usage.

[encia]

Originally Posted by grevierr

Except current doctrine and specs are just for burning out the electronic head of the missile, instead of chopping it up.

According to
http://defense-update.com/products/a/atl.htm
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/abl/
The other target is the missile's fuel tank.

Originally Posted by grevierr

The higher power lasers take longer and cause more damage to itself than the target over long usage.

Hence the word "developing" not "deploying". Durability issue is dependant on the laser generation type e.g. Free Electron Laser vs Chemical Laser vs Solid State Laser.

A collection of weaker lasers can be combined and focused on a single target.

Skyguard Laser Defense in Action. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V1pkTMCZ0M

Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-electron_laser

FEL technology is being evaluated by the US Navy as a good candidate for an anti aircraft and missile directed-energy weapon. Significant progress is being made in raising FEL power levels (the Thomas Jefferson National Accelerator Facility's FEL has demonstrated over 14 kW)[14] and it should be possible to build compact multi-megawatt class FEL weapons.[15] On June 9, 2009 the Office of Naval Research announced it had awarded Raytheon a contract to develop a 100 kW experimental FEL.[16] On March 18, 2010 Boeing Directed Energy Systems announced the completion of an initial design for U.S. Naval use.[17] A prototype FEL system has since been demonstrated with a full-power prototype scheduled by 2018

John Corlett describes a free electron laser (FEL) and how it differs from a conventional laser. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI7_5aqqXaw

[Von Himmel]

Originally Posted by Nyat

I'm not sure but...
Type-00 is a imperial guard TSF so it should have superior performance.
Raptor has stealth so it should win without any problems when in ranged combat. Maybe in melee there would be some problems but given the fact it performed well against F15 it shouldn't go bad.

Copy paste from novel discussion thread since I don't know whether that's the right place to ask this: Is Shiranui 2 a mass-produced TSF? Also, I've read that they also possess XM3 (from the wiki though. Can anyone give confirmation about this? ;_; )... wouldn't they be better or at least equal with Raptor with that OS?

[Belgaesh]

Originally Posted by Von Himmel

Copy paste from novel discussion thread since I don't know whether that's the right place to ask this: Is Shiranui 2 a mass-produced TSF? Also, I've read that they also possess XM3 (from the wiki though. Can anyone give confirmation about this? ;_; )... wouldn't they be better or at least equal with Raptor with that OS?

The Shiranui is the mass produced unit used by the Japanese Imperial Army, while the Takemikazuchi is used solely by the Imperial Honor Guard.

The XM3 is a improved OS that was in developed late 2001(around november), but Total Eclipse begins earlier than this(July if I'm not mistaken). So at the beginning of TE, the XM3 wasn't even developed yet.

A unit with the XM3 has a performance roughfully 30% better than a unit with the old OS. But I don't know if with it a Shiranui can beat a Raptor.

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by Belgaesh

The Shiranui is the mass produced unit used by the Japanese Imperial Army, while the Takemikazuchi is used solely by the Imperial Honor Guard.

The XM3 is a improved OS that was in developed late 2001(around november), but Total Eclipse begins earlier than this(July if I'm not mistaken). So at the beginning of TE, the XM3 wasn't even developed yet.

A unit with the XM3 has a performance roughfully 30% better than a unit with the old OS. But I don't know if with it a Shiranui can beat a Raptor.

Spoiler for MLA:

At this time the time split has not occured yet, so the possibility of XM3 being developed is still uncertain.

[Belgaesh]

Originally Posted by grevierr

Spoiler for MLA:

At this time the time split has not occured yet, so the possibility of XM3 being developed is still uncertain.

Yeah, there still that to acount for. But I think it will, as it is Muv-Luv Alternative Total Eclipse.

Someone knows if there is some mention to the XM3 in the stories that deal with the future after Alternative?

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by Belgaesh

Yeah, there still that to acount for. But I think it will, as it is Muv-Luv Alternative Total Eclipse.

Someone knows if there is some mention to the XM3 in the stories that deal with the future after Alternative?

I was giving a non-spoiler answer but:

Spoiler for Post MLA:

Actually, since the XFJ project ends in producing the Shiranui 2, and the only stories so far that actually shows the Type-04 in action is post MLA ones, its more or less confirmed that TE leads to MLA.

At this point in the anime though, its still before Oct 2001, the pivotal point in the plot.

[DezoPenguin]

I nearly laughed my head off when I stumbled across this article, given what we're all discussing about the differences between U.S. and Japanese TSF combat philosophy:

http://news.yahoo.com/f-22-fighter-l...opstories.html

[galdr]

Originally Posted by DezoPenguin

I nearly laughed my head off when I stumbled across this article, given what we're all discussing about the differences between U.S. and Japanese TSF combat philosophy:

http://news.yahoo.com/f-22-fighter-l...opstories.html

Is this just a funny coincidence or Muv Luv creator did their homework very well?

[Von Himmel]

In case I wasn't clear enough about it before, I was talking about TSF-Type04/XFJ-01 Shiranui Second (不知火 弐型), the one that got trialed around 2003. To quote it from wiki :

n April 2003, the Shiranui Second is trialed by the Fuji School Brigade Urd Squadron during Operation Sledgehammer to capture the Cheorwon Hive, equipped with XM3

So.. if this thing really got mass-produced with XM3 (I wonder how Yuuko deal with the empire concerning the XM3 ), coupled with japanese pilot skills (which somehow tends to be pretty skilled), wouldn't they be better than Raptor?

...Of course Raptor has that stealth capability and great spec for Anti-TSF combat, so I guess we couldn't make sure of it

[YF19EX]

Off topic: Overall Stealth Technology is something the US has always for the most part had a monopoly in. Its probably one of the best kept secrets within the US Arsenal when there are leaks abound in every other part of the Gov. Although now within the last 2 or so years we have seen Russian and China dabble in current stealth aircraft. But even then these are still probably faux with limited stealth capabilities. That and Stealth Aircraft are expensive placing the US in the best position to not only produce the best stealth aircraft in addition of buying the most. I think China and Russian are probably looking into more stealth detection technology first.

I think it fits US doctrine quite well in the MuvLuv world to still keep your friends close and enemies closer and the BETA as far away from you as possible. I have learned in real life its always better to keep your adversary at distance no matter what. If you can attack at distance you will always have the advantage over any close in fighter. When you are up close, then its becomes the skill set of each individual. Fight dirty and never fight fair.

Even the Japanese in the opening 2 eps never fought close until the last second. You can see them opening up with missiles, artillery, tanks and battleship cannons. Every ounce of long range weaponry they could deploy against the BETA before absolutely sending the TSF in.

[potchip]

All these talk about anti TSF and anti BETA no-one defined the difference between the two and why certain focus gives the edge.

So Japanese focus on close combat and apparently they built their TSF to be anti-BETA - does that mean close combat is the most effective method to deal with BETA? (from the anime doesn't appear to be the case - or for that matter not enough forces are deployed to display the critical mass required to be effective - it's always BETA swarm vs a couple TSF which can only get surrounded and die - why is close combat effective again?)

The analogy of F-22 can only apply to TSF vs TSF - F-22 (the actual aircraft) should never ever end up in a situation that require dog fighting capabilities. It's all about sensor range (weapon), have enough speed to burn off opponents who give chase and stealth which creates a situation where the F-22 will never engage an enemy on unfavourable terms. I don't think the same applies to BETA? I'm assuming stealth does not matter vs BETA because otherwise everyone should have stealth as it gives a huge advantage and nullifies the laser class.

[YF19EX]

Well it comes down to the laser class again that nullifies all air superiority and long range attacks. Even supposedly supersonic cruise missiles and even high speed artillery can be shot down by the laser class totally nerfing any long range advantage.

Then it comes down to ground fighting. And when faced with a Zerg rush of BETA the size of buildings with armor thicker than a mountain and you have the unfortunately recipe for close in. Which makes me wonder how they are going to deploy that energy cannon (Eva style) that was brought up in Ep1. In fact I would think energy weapons would probably be the most favorable to use vs kinetic if you want to cook something and at range. Nothing like developing your own laser to match the enemy. If you can technological develop mecha, surely energy weapons should not be that far off.

[potchip]

Well laser class is only effective against 'explosive' type of projectile attacks but does not appear to be effective against bullets (or why the guns on TSFs?) Laser superheats sections causing structural failure in missiles or TSFs, no such problems for shells - themselves is the payload and Laser will not be able to vaporise metal or time to deal with masses of them. Basically you just need something that fires a lot of solid slugs at the same time. If BBs can fire outside range of BETA laser, then the same can be achieved with stationary turrets.

[encia]

Originally Posted by potchip

All these talk about anti TSF and anti BETA no-one defined the difference between the two and why certain focus gives the edge.

So Japanese focus on close combat and apparently they built their TSF to be anti-BETA - does that mean close combat is the most effective method to deal with BETA? (from the anime doesn't appear to be the case - or for that matter not enough forces are deployed to display the critical mass required to be effective - it's always BETA swarm vs a couple TSF which can only get surrounded and die - why is close combat effective again?)

The analogy of F-22 can only apply to TSF vs TSF - F-22 (the actual aircraft) should never ever end up in a situation that require dog fighting capabilities.

Well, RL F-22 can dog-fight at similar levels as near half priced RL Euro-fighter.
RL F-35 is like RL F-16 with 5th gen-features.

[DoomRavager]

The thing about close combat capability is that if you plan on actually holding some ground or pushing forward aggressively instead of running away to keep range, the sheer numbers of enemies are going to be piling up and forcing you into ultra close quarters eventually, if you don't run out of ammunition first.

So being able to survive in close quarters is quite handy for BETA combat. That's not to say that you shouldn't do your damnedest to try engaging at distance out of the reach of Grapplers, Tanks, Destroyers etc., it's just a fact that BETA fights have a chance of devolving into close-up dust ups. Meanwhile high mobility long distance engagement works just fine for humans, except for that whole YF-22 versus YF-23 thing where stealth versus stealth ended up with them stumbling into each other at close range since they couldn't track each other, then ended up with YF-23 victories in melee.

At least, that's how I see it, I could be wrong.

[Angrypokstick]

Originally Posted by Von Himmel

In case I wasn't clear enough about it before, I was talking about TSF-Type04/XFJ-01 Shiranui Second (不知火 弐型), the one that got trialed around 2003. To quote it from wiki :

(

OH wow,for this to be asked at a time like this. Truly a coincidence.

The Story you refer to was translated by a anon on 4 chan /m posted less than 30 minutes ago from when i m writing this.

go read it now. its the second story posted in that thread.
http://archive.foolz.us/m/thread/8053137/#8055003

or fuck it i will just post it here

Spoiler for size:

#26 Heritage of Valkyries
Roaring engines ripped through the darkness. It has been 766 seconds since the Hive "Gate" was breached. the 12 TSFs of this particular squadron to brave the unknown darkness are still all accounted for and operational, Speeding down one of the Hives's many drifts.
The Drift walls eerily reflected the lights coming from the TSFs, the green of the hive walls becoming a blur to the pilots as they cruised at high speeds.
"I can't believe i m actually considering to calling this place as something beautiful........"
As if stars shining in the sky on a cloudless night, the HIVE wall in this section of the drifts could be considered by many to be beautiful in its own way were it not for the Grotesque forms of the BETA that currently inhabits it.
As beautiful as the sights were, the pilot have to remain focused and alert. This is no JIVE simulation. This is as real as it gets, for they are in the very bowels of Hive 20.
In the years of past, countless pilots like themselves have sacrificed their lives in an attempt to seize or destroy the hive reactor in a hive just like this one. Despite the many precedence's examples of the dangers that are most likely facing them ahead, the nervousness that one would find on pilots of the old days in this situation cannot be found on the these pilots of today.
"The Valkyrie data is truly amazing......"
"the BETA really haven't changed that much have they....."
In the many hours now that the UN forces have been engaging the BETA of hive 20, the predicted BETA numbers on the surface, their rate of reinforcements and general movement of the BETA through the surface layers of the HIVE have all been predicted with surprising accuracy. Even now ,12 minutes since breaching the "GATE". Nothing they have seen in Hive 20 have been able to surprise them so far, other than some extra branches of tunnel structure here and there, everything is going according to the simulations.
Flying in open formation at maximum cruising speeds. These machines are equipped with High Thrust output engines of the type previously never found any Japanese TSF. The new high thrust General electronic Fe-140 turbofan engine combined with it aggressively contoured control surfaces and vector thrusting waist boosters have made these units nearly impossible to pilot effectively without a Skilled and experienced veteran at its controls. But at the hands of such pilots who are able to bring out the true performance of these untamed horses, They become an unmatched force of nature of nearly unstoppable proportions. Even now these 12 TSFs continue to fly gracefully through the tight winding corners of this drift with not a single wasted movement, not slowing down in the least even when dispatching the BETAs who would attempt to hinder their advance.
"Man.....why did we pick the safe route? there are nowhere near enough BETA here to pose a challenge to me. And we even finally got the XM3 installed for this assault. "
The TSFs of this squadron embodies almost all the concepts of a true 3rd gen TSF in terms of speed and mobility . When combined with the operating system XM3, all simulation trial results would have exceeded the original TSF designer's wildest expectations. And today would be the first time for this Squadron to engage in Live combat with the XM3 installed in these new model machines.
"Skuld 1 to Skuld 5, seeing as we are most likely going to the Reactor room at some point during this Op and seeing as how you seem to have so much energy to talk crap, when we get to the reactor room I m ordering you to breach and secure the Reactor by yourself while everyone else is going to sit back ,watch and then laugh at how much the BETA is kicking your ass."
With an voice and tone people would normally never associate with the Squadron leader of such a veteran squadron . The voice continue to chew out her subordinate and a couple of suppressed chuckles can be heard coming from the rest of the squadron.
"hmmph, Skuld 1 to all units, we are almost there. Confirm your remaining fuel and ammo, we are not going to be resupplied for awhile, and even if we were ,you all know very well of my policy on wasting ammo."
"Roger!"
Indeed. this squadron is nowhere near any of the main forces and for that matter there are no other Human forces within these hive tunnels anywhere. For this single squadron right now, the main shaft is not their main objective nor is the Reactor room. at 800+ seconds since breaching into the hive tunnels the unit have flown through a series of winding tunnels and at the present they are directly 9000+ meters of their point of entry. Shortly and they will be going through the Main shaft itself and then exiting it in a straight line across and continue on their prescribed route into a new drift. The current objective of this squadron is something that have never been attempted on any previous hive assaults.
"I see it now, we will break through there!!!"


2003 april 10th, local time 1201. the current assault on the surface of Hive 20 is continuing smoothly. The sky is saturated with heavy metal cloud, and on the ground the very sounds of war shook the earth with every discharge from tools made solely for the purpose of relentless destruction.
The UN forces deployed on the ground are still engaged in a battle of dominance with the BETA, on all fronts in an attempt to suppress the BETA presence above ground in the preparation for the actual breaching of a Hive Gate for the main force to go through.
"Joker 1 to HQ! 3rd wave of BETA reinforcement coming from Gate SE41. Estimated to be brigade size or larger and they got lasers with them, size and composition unknown. Requesting immediate artillery support and reinforcements."
"HQ to Joker 1 , at the present time we cannot direct any reinforcements your way, all forward artillery batteries have priority targets to engage at the moment. Elements of the Unites States pacific fleet have acknowledged your call for fire but their battleships are currently engaged as well and will not be able to support you for another 20 minutes.----------Hold! Joker 1, more to follow shortly......................."
"Joker 1 roger.......... Fuck ! this is bullshit...."
From Joker 1's view, the situation is grim. Even though there are naval assets on both sides of the korean peninsula. However, Joker 1 and all battalions under his command have been dropped virtually next to cheorwon hive a couple kilometer south to secure this side of the BETA Advance, which means he is almost dead center middle on the Korean peninsula landmass with a minimum of 110miles to the sea on both sides. At such ranges the only weapons those ships can bring to bear would be their Tomahawk cruise missiles. Even assuming those missiles get here under the cover of the heavy Metal cloud. At 550miles/h it will still take roughly 10 minutes or more for them to get here from where they will be fired from and not to mention the supposed 20 minute delay before they can even fire on Joker 1's targets.
In the face of direct laser threats from beyond his own effective engagement range, the various Battalions here under his command faced the very real possibility of total annihilation without effective fire support. Even though humanity have learned much on how to better defeat the BETA since Operation Ouka, the BETA's Numerical advantage and laser classes continue to pose a grave threat.
As the situation becomes rapidly more dire by the second. Joker 1 cannot afford to wait for HQ's delayed response any longer.
"Joker 1 to HQ, the Lasers are getting closer now, I can't wait any longer. I can either order a assault to take out the lasers on my own or I will have to pull my forces-------------"
" joker 1 this HQ, I have IJA(imperial Japanese army) assets in this region willing to provide assistance, they say you can expected 2 salvos of long range support fire before they will attempt a link up with your forces. Forwarding their projected arcs of fire now..... Your point of contact with them will be with their call sign Skuld 1. Here is their frequency......"
(...IJA in this area? where are they coming from?")
Looking at his map and the forwarded data received from HQ, Joker 1's expression went from puzzled to almost jaw dropping shock.
(these coordinates.....bearing 304....North West......... They are coming in from inside the Hive?!?!)
The unit designator on his map came closer and closer, before registering themselves on his HUD as the 11th Tactical Surface fighter Squadron of the Mt.Fuji Instructional Corp.
Minutes earlier.....
Off in the distance, 12 XFJ-01 Shiranui Second -phase 2-- Emerged at maximum thrust from a hive Gate.
" Skuld 1to HQ, we have successfully exited the Hive from Gate SE03.All units 'fully operational, remaining Fuel and ammunition within acceptable mission parameters. Ready for further combat orders."
"HQ to Skuld 1, I confirm your units signal. data link reestablished.......Congratulations, you guys are the first Humans to ever attempt and complete such a journey within a hive , not to mention the first single unit to breach 2 different Hive gates in one operation, with the 2nd gate being breached from the inside no less.
"Skuld 1 to HQ, Thank you for the Compliments, but we could not have done it without the Valkyrie Data.......humanity have finally reached this point...."

Much of the accuracy for the prediction of BETA movement and Hive infrastructure of this Operation all owe its thanks to the still Classified "Valkyrie data" that was obtained by analyzing the data of the infiltration forces during all the Hive assaults during Operation Ouka ,including the assault of the Primary Objective. Due to the nature of certain sensitive information that is part of the Valkyrie data, much of it still remain highly classified , nevertheless the bulk of the Valkyrie data have proven invaluable to the UN forces planning any hive assaults. due to its more comprehensive and up to date information on BETA hives it will most likely replace the aging Volk data during pilot JIVE training for all hive assaults in the future.
(1st Lt Hayase.......Captain Isumi........Onee-chan........Chizuru......everyone-----......I have finally arrived at this point....)
Skuld 1---1st Lt Suzumiya Akane, the youngest Squadron leader and ace pilot of the Fuji instructional corp, once again offered her prayers to the names of friends, family and comrades who have stood and fought by her side through the darkest times of human history.
(No, not just me, everyone of Isumi's Valkyries have arrived here with me!)
Within Imperial Japan, and indeed the world, few would recognize and truly realize the importance behind the personal marking that now adorned one of her TSF's shoulder Plating.
It is a rare symbol and the number of pilots in this world that still carried it can be numbered on one hand. She is the only one in her squadron to carry the unit patch of "Valkyrie". A unit that have been shrouded in mystery and secrecy since the days of its inception, even nowadays ,legends, rumors, gossips and supposed eye witness accounts of the mysterious squadron and the inhuman skills of their pilots can still be found here and there around the frontlines of the world.
"HQ to Skuld Leader, we will save more of your congratulations for later, UN forces in the region require immediate assistance, forwarding the data now... Command believes that this will be a good opportunity to try out some new tactics with those new weapons, They expect favorable results. Your point of Contact with the UN forces will be Joker 1, Good hunting Skuld leader."
Receiving her orders, Lt Suzumiya put her game face on.
"Skuld 1 rogers! Alright you fucking lazy bums , time to earn your pay and booze. BUT NO ONE here is partying until that Reactor room wall is painted in BETA blood to my satisfactions! All units prepare to commence long range support fire. These will be our targets...."
Saying things that a teenage girls really shouldn't be saying, the squadron obeyed nonetheless.12 type-02 Squad Support Guns(SSG) were deployed simultaneously. Better known with its European designation as the Mk57 SSG.
Taking advantage of the Valkyrie data showing which drifts and Gate the BETA prefer to use during a hive assault, Military planners are able to plot a fast and safe route through a BETA Hive to Exit directly behind the BETA formation, where the Laser class are mostly positioned perfect for a long range kill using the type-02 SSG. This is but one of many Proposed new anti-BETA tactic during a hive assault to be tested by the members of Fuji-instructional corp.
"Skuld 1 to all units. These bastards's backsides are completely vulnerable, Victory is ours! You have your targets, Commence Firing!"
"Roger!!"
2003 april 10th, local time 1234. objective 20''s assault "operation Sladgehammer" continues overall according to plan. Several Gates have now been secured and the next phase of infiltrating the main hive shaft will begin shortly.