AnimeSuki Forums

RampagingEvangelion · 2009-03-24, 10:49

Wow... all of this over one word...

Well, anyhow ON TOPIC

Part 1 was good. I can't say I'm feeling the same emotions as when I was waiting for the last chapter of Volume 03 to be translated, but it's still good.

Thanks a lot.

salv87 · 2009-03-24, 10:52

about the world platonic linking to Plato..
a few of my friends thought that platonic love is term meaning a relationship with tons of sex (without the higher cause), and didn't think think that it was connected to Plato, but rather just thought of it as it is, and one even made a connection to a russian work "плоть" which means flesh

I wouldn't call them ignorant, they're actually quite educated, can easily talk on any theme of hystory, politics, technics etc etc, just that they didn't study phylosophy..
I had phylosophy only for 1 semester during my 1 year, and as you finished a degree in it, you should know that you can't learn a LOT in half a year.. just jumping over heads.

Darknemo2000 · 2009-03-24, 12:10

Well, I do not say that it is exactly this or that persons fault for misusing word platonic, but rather a Christian philosophical interpretation tradition that reaches way beyond our times.

For me process is just as important, as the final result, since Plato himself discussed about the result admitting that there would be hard to find final result of his love in our world, as we are human and our recognition of eidos is polluted by our own bodies (note that this 'pollution' isn't bad as in Christian tradition, but rather a natural thing of being human). But thats what makes the physical part in his love interpretation more important, as it would always part of relationship. Result without process is impossible.

Maybe if we were angels who could see all those eidos through physical bodies then such instant result love would be possible, but since we are humans it is not really possible to reach such recognition without physical world.

Well maybe since Horo is god she could do that, but for Lawrence this is impossible.

Anyways, the Lawrence and Horo love is not platonic in its true (historical, if you want) meaning of the world as it doesn't have physical part in it . In fact, it looks more like flirting but not really a love yet.

RampagingEvangelion · 2009-03-24, 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Well maybe since Horo is god she could do that,

Horo isn't a god, she is simply Horo. hehehe I know what you mean though.

Dann of Thursday · 2009-03-24, 20:27

I wonder if there is ever going to be a moment where these two actually say something like "I love you" or at least admit something like that within there heads though there have been a few moments that to me almost seemed like that. This would probably would be one of those relationships where words wouldn't be needed though, I suppose.

Darknemo2000 · 2009-03-24, 21:11

Technically she isn't a god, but you know what I mean.

Dann of Thursday, I don't know if they feel love actually. Strong connection, affection and bind - sure, but love - I am not so sure about it.

Cinocard · 2009-03-24, 23:24

You are not so sure that they don't, or that they won't?

judgment26 · 2009-03-25, 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by RampagingEvangelion

Wow... all of this over one word...

Well, anyhow ON TOPIC

Part 1 was good. I can't say I'm feeling the same emotions as when I was waiting for the last chapter of Volume 03 to be translated, but it's still good.

Thanks a lot.

Spoiler for Vol. 4:

Darknemo2000 · 2009-03-25, 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cinocard

You are not so sure that they don't, or that they won't?

That they don't. No one can tell if they won't but the author. Sure it is human/non-human thing but it was hinted in the novels that such relationships are not completely impossible.

It would be painful to Horo though, unless she would be turned into human or Larence would be given immortality (or at least very long life continuum).

Cinocard · 2009-03-25, 00:30

Well, in stories like this, normally they will.

I believe that Horo will lose her immortality rather than Lawrence would gain it, though. It is more typical that way.

Darknemo2000 · 2009-03-25, 01:33

In western novels - of course they would - in Japanese, not always. There are a number of animes or novels that do not give a happy ending at all or no conclusion to a relationship (like SR).

Dann of Thursday · 2009-03-25, 07:36

Given Horo's nature, her losing her long life (I don't quite think she is immortal unless I read something wrong) is quite unlikely. That doesn't mean there can't be some sort of happiness and there are always ways where this could end on a positive note. And if they don't feel love for one another now, I have a feeling it could happen eventually. Time is all that is needed. They are already on the way there or at least to me they are. Or the subject could be left open without any clear ending. Or it will just stay where it is for the rest of story, they may eventually part, and everyone goes on with their lives.

Darknemo2000 · 2009-03-25, 11:57

Yeah she isn't immortal, but from human perspective it is as good as immortality. Or maybe Horo could make Lawrence living longer, after all she already tried in a sense (though not in an official story).

Dann of Thursday · 2009-03-25, 12:51

I can't think of any way that could be done honestly (haven't heard this unofficial bit before) and it might seem a bit cheap if that sort of thing just happened. Or maybe not depending on how it was all handled. Best case scenario barring that for them would probably be that they simply stay with one another for the rest of Lawrence's life, though there are some aspects of that which could be sad.

LKK · 2009-03-25, 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

Best case scenario barring that for them would probably be that they simply stay with one another for the rest of Lawrence's life, though there are some aspects of that which could be sad.

Setting aside the possibility of divorce, that's what all married couples do. They remain together until one partner dies. In that respect, Lawrence and Horo's relationship would be no different than any other marriage.

Vexx · 2009-03-25, 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

In western novels - of course they would - in Japanese, not always. There are a number of animes or novels that do not give a happy ending at all or no conclusion to a relationship (like SR).

aye... "happy ever after" is a western fantasy. Horo and Lawrence may have a short happy time together (over some decades) but eventually one party dies and the other either chooses to go on to start a new life or end it for themselves -- that's a typical eastern literature scenario.

I've said this before but there's a real deep feeling in eastern literature that scares many Western eyes. That sense of "everything is impermanent; everything changes; live and enjoy the now because that's all you ever have". Don't avoid a relationship because it might be short (i.e. that short series about the terminally ill girl and the boy who loves her - series name escapes me).

Anh_Minh · 2009-03-25, 13:54

Hanbun no Tsuki ga Noboru Sora

0utf0xZer0 · 2009-03-25, 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Hanbun no Tsuki ga Noboru Sora

Beat me to it. I remembered the first half but decided to leave looking up the second half until after I'd had breakfast.

I'm not sure that Spice and Wolf will necessary take the Hanbun no Tsuki route though. I haven't seen a lot of anime do the happily ever after routine, but I've seen some pretty differing amounts of emphasis on the fact one partner will outlive the other. Some of them put so little emphasis on it as to come across as something approximating a happily ever after to western audiences.

(And damn it, now I'm thinking about how the whole "everything is temporary" thing applies to Chihiro's story in EF (particularly what I've heard about the game version of her story) when I should be working on my Kashmir paper so that I can go out with friends tomorrow night.)

seaghyn16 · 2009-03-30, 00:17

What about this idea...?

Horo eventually gets captured by the Church, and a host of exorcists try whatever, etc etc, but eventually somehow, they are able to exercise the wolf part of Horo out, leaving her as herself, a normal girl now, just with centuries of memories and experience. Now they're both "normal," and can live their lives to the happiness of the end when they die and move on together, or something like that...O_o?

Anh_Minh · 2009-03-30, 00:54

It would be so crippling for Horo. That's not particularly happy either.

2009-03-24, 20:27	Link #625
Dann of Thursday WHERE'S...MY...COW???? Join Date: Dec 2007 Age: 33	I wonder if there is ever going to be a moment where these two actually say something like "I love you" or at least admit something like that within there heads though there have been a few moments that to me almost seemed like that. This would probably would be one of those relationships where words wouldn't be needed though, I suppose. __________________ By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes. "Nearly all men can stand adversity, if you want to test a man's character give him power." - Abraham Lincoln

2009-03-25, 07:36	Link #632
Dann of Thursday WHERE'S...MY...COW???? Join Date: Dec 2007 Age: 33	Given Horo's nature, her losing her long life (I don't quite think she is immortal unless I read something wrong) is quite unlikely. That doesn't mean there can't be some sort of happiness and there are always ways where this could end on a positive note. And if they don't feel love for one another now, I have a feeling it could happen eventually. Time is all that is needed. They are already on the way there or at least to me they are. Or the subject could be left open without any clear ending. Or it will just stay where it is for the rest of story, they may eventually part, and everyone goes on with their lives. __________________ By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes. "Nearly all men can stand adversity, if you want to test a man's character give him power." - Abraham Lincoln

2009-03-25, 12:51	Link #634
Dann of Thursday WHERE'S...MY...COW???? Join Date: Dec 2007 Age: 33	I can't think of any way that could be done honestly (haven't heard this unofficial bit before) and it might seem a bit cheap if that sort of thing just happened. Or maybe not depending on how it was all handled. Best case scenario barring that for them would probably be that they simply stay with one another for the rest of Lawrence's life, though there are some aspects of that which could be sad. __________________ By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes. "Nearly all men can stand adversity, if you want to test a man's character give him power." - Abraham Lincoln

2009-03-30, 00:17	Link #639
seaghyn16 Translator Level 4/10 Join Date: Feb 2008	What about this idea...? Horo eventually gets captured by the Church, and a host of exorcists try whatever, etc etc, but eventually somehow, they are able to exercise the wolf part of Horo out, leaving her as herself, a normal girl now, just with centuries of memories and experience. Now they're both "normal," and can live their lives to the happiness of the end when they die and move on together, or something like that...O_o? __________________ Rain: Warrior Born on a Rainy Day - novels translation site.

2009-03-24, 10:49	Link #621
RampagingEvangelion Asuka, Asuna, and Horo Join Date: Feb 2008	Wow... all of this over one word... Well, anyhow ON TOPIC Part 1 was good. I can't say I'm feeling the same emotions as when I was waiting for the last chapter of Volume 03 to be translated, but it's still good. Thanks a lot.

2009-03-24, 10:52	Link #622
salv87 Can't think of a title^_^ Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Lithuania Age: 36	about the world platonic linking to Plato.. a few of my friends thought that platonic love is term meaning a relationship with tons of sex (without the higher cause), and didn't think think that it was connected to Plato, but rather just thought of it as it is, and one even made a connection to a russian work "плоть" which means flesh I wouldn't call them ignorant, they're actually quite educated, can easily talk on any theme of hystory, politics, technics etc etc, just that they didn't study phylosophy.. I had phylosophy only for 1 semester during my 1 year, and as you finished a degree in it, you should know that you can't learn a LOT in half a year.. just jumping over heads.

2009-03-24, 12:10	Link #623
Darknemo2000 Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Lithuania Age: 39	Well, I do not say that it is exactly this or that persons fault for misusing word platonic, but rather a Christian philosophical interpretation tradition that reaches way beyond our times. For me process is just as important, as the final result, since Plato himself discussed about the result admitting that there would be hard to find final result of his love in our world, as we are human and our recognition of eidos is polluted by our own bodies (note that this 'pollution' isn't bad as in Christian tradition, but rather a natural thing of being human). But thats what makes the physical part in his love interpretation more important, as it would always part of relationship. Result without process is impossible. Maybe if we were angels who could see all those eidos through physical bodies then such instant result love would be possible, but since we are humans it is not really possible to reach such recognition without physical world. Well maybe since Horo is god she could do that, but for Lawrence this is impossible. Anyways, the Lawrence and Horo love is not platonic in its true (historical, if you want) meaning of the world as it doesn't have physical part in it . In fact, it looks more like flirting but not really a love yet.

2009-03-24, 21:11	Link #626
Darknemo2000 Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Lithuania Age: 39	Technically she isn't a god, but you know what I mean. Dann of Thursday, I don't know if they feel love actually. Strong connection, affection and bind - sure, but love - I am not so sure about it.

2009-03-24, 23:24	Link #627
Cinocard Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	You are not so sure that they don't, or that they won't?

2009-03-25, 00:30	Link #630
Cinocard Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	Well, in stories like this, normally they will. I believe that Horo will lose her immortality rather than Lawrence would gain it, though. It is more typical that way.

2009-03-25, 01:33	Link #631
Darknemo2000 Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Lithuania Age: 39	In western novels - of course they would - in Japanese, not always. There are a number of animes or novels that do not give a happy ending at all or no conclusion to a relationship (like SR).

2009-03-25, 11:57	Link #633
Darknemo2000 Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Lithuania Age: 39	Yeah she isn't immortal, but from human perspective it is as good as immortality. Or maybe Horo could make Lawrence living longer, after all she already tried in a sense (though not in an official story).

2009-03-25, 13:54	Link #637
Anh_Minh I disagree with you all. Join Date: Dec 2005	Hanbun no Tsuki ga Noboru Sora

2009-03-30, 00:54	Link #640
Anh_Minh I disagree with you all. Join Date: Dec 2005	It would be so crippling for Horo. That's not particularly happy either.