To Aru Kagaku no Railgun S - Episode 14 Discussion / Poll

[SeventhNight]

Originally Posted by ninryu

Because that won't bring out the message that even the strongest, most independent female characters need to sit on their asses and let the man save everyone and be the hero. Because every girl is just waiting to be swoon off her legs by prince-charming who will take her to his castle and will do everything for her.

...That's kinda ignoring the first part of Railgun where Mikoto essentially solved a major issue almost entirely by herself. The first half of this season where Mikoto single-handedly took down several lab facilities and fought off a mercenary team by herself.

The point of this arc was that Mikoto met a force that she wasn't strong enough to take down by herself (Accelerator) but still tried to act alone anyway. Is it really so big a deal that the person she got help from was a guy? That the person she relied on in her time of need was someone she already knew and trusted... who happens to be a guy?

Also Touma does get development (sure its really slow but he does get some) just not a lot here in Railgun, because this is in the end Mikoto's story.

[Miraluka]

Originally Posted by Sackett

On the other hand, Touma has not had a lot of character development himself. He always tries to get people to rely on him, but he won't rely on others. Touma ought to be moving in a similar arc towards realizing that he needs a heroine in his life who is matched well with him and can save him when he needs saving. (This is one of the reasons a lot of fanfiction has Touma actually call Mikoto and ask her for help with some problem, the fans instinctively realize that this is the important next step for Touma to develop properly).

Part of this is driven by the author's need to make Touma a semi-harem protagonist with multiple potential heroines, and Touma's resulting obliviousness to romance. As far as I can tell Mikoto is the only one that has been properly setup to truly play the other half role in a character development arc for Touma, (which is why Mikoto x Touma is the most popular pairing). The problem is that Touma is developing at glacier speed. Which always leaves open the possibility that one of the other heroines could shift into the romantic other half role.

This is why Railgun's Sisters Arcs is better then the Index version. In Railgun Mikoto is the main character and we see her development much better then Touma in Index. Additionally it's made more clear in Railgun that Touma needs Mikoto's help too. (See the next episode).
__________________

Actually, Touma had a lot of charater development, starting with his right hand that he hated for being useless for his life.

He always tries? No, he is involved by accident on those problems, he just acepts them instead of taking a step aside and let the things go. Thats why he doesn't needs some "heroine" (haha) what he needs is someone who can make him prove to himself his power isn't useless when his will is enough for him. The pairing are delusional fans, even if the author outright says it, people will go in denial as usual :S.

What Touma needs develop is to not be involved and led by other's schemes but willing to search for the causes before the consequences are too big to handle.

Better? From a partial pov, yes. From Touma in Index, and Mikoto and Accelerator in Railgun, no.

Originally Posted by SeventhNight

Also Touma does get development (sure its really slow but he does get some) just not a lot here in Railgun, because this is in the end Mikoto's story.

Indeed, to Mikoto, Touma is the same person, its just she doesn't knows the truth thus being unable to understand him at all.

[Kotohono]

<rant incoming warning>
His speech to Misaka in ep this, is just so painfully stupid to me.

Misaka asks if he has any ideas or plans.

Does Touma do the rational thing, and tell her that he'll fight accelerator? NO

Does he explain Misaka that his power might give him a chance vs accelerator? NOPE

Does he answer her question if he's ok with letting the clones die? NOPE

Does he ask to team up with him to try to defeat accelerator? NO

Does he just stand there spewing his ideals and looking like a moron? YUP.

Does he wait until Misaka attacks to say he is against the experiments? YES

Does he stand there until she attacks him all out to then explain things? YES

Does he treat her like a helpless child and leave her instead of asking her to help him? YUP

Did doing so waste time, and potentially have let Accelerator kill the clone for that day and miss his chance to fight him because his 'ideals' are more important? APPARENTLY.

That one scene made wish Misaka would have killed him, because it makes him look so stupid and arrogant.

No seriously can anyone give me a single good reason, why Touma waited until Misaka went full out on him to make him pass out to explain what he was thinking?

If that one scene hadn't been handled so completely idiotically, I could have been more or less ok with Touma's involvement in the arc, but it wasn't.

And for being saying it's a gender thing regardless of that treating a person as a helpless child and going solo against someone like Accelerator alone is simply arrogance and ego showing, it's not like she was physical injured or had something else stopping her from helping. (It makes sense given how events of index might have boosted Touma's ego, but it's no excuse to think himself invincible). And treating her as a helpless child tramples on all her effort to stop it herself, imo.

That scene on the bridge made it without a doubt the worst episode in all of railgun to me, and it was worse watching it again.
</rant>

[Ilidsor]

No seriously can anyone give me a single good reason, why Touma waited until Misaka went full out on him to make him pass out to explain what he was thinking?

He didn't have his plan yet. He stopped Misaka from moving because he knew that she would be committing suicide. Stopping her, even when he didn't have a plan to stop the experiments yet, might not have been the most rational choice but it was the only one he could emotionally accept.

After he got beaten up by her he realized his plan and how he could stop it without her having to die. Before that he was just trying to stop a girl from killing herself.

Does he treat her like a helpless child and leave her instead of asking her to help him? YUP

He did this for incredibly obvious reasons that were literally just explained in this episode. He needs to stop Accelerator without her help because otherwise the scientists will assume that she beat Accel and not him. The entire point is to make the scientists think that Accelerator is so useless he would lose to a level 0. Losing to a level 5 would not make the scientists decide he was worthless.

going solo against someone like Accelerator alone is simply arrogance and ego showing

You say that like he wasn't terrified. He was. He was just more angry.

[Kotohono]

Originally Posted by Ilidsor

He didn't have his plan yet. He stopped Misaka from moving because he knew that she would be committing suicide. Stopping her, even when he didn't have a plan to stop the experiments yet, might not have been the most rational choice but it was the only one he could emotionally accept.

After he got beaten up by her he realized his plan and how he could stop it without her having to die. Before that he was just trying to stop a girl from killing herself.

I am sorry you mean to tell me Touma couldn't think of his incredibly simple plan of punching Accelerator prior to nearly being shocked to death? Thank for proving my point of how stupid he was during this episode.

And if he needed time to think of a plan, why didn't he just block Misaka's attacks? Instead of almost dying and putting himself in worse state to fight Accelerator.

He did this for incredibly obvious reasons that were literally just explained in this episode. He needs to stop Accelerator without her help because otherwise the scientists will assume that she beat Accel and not him. The entire point is to make the scientists think that Accelerator is so useless he would lose to a level 0. Losing to a level 5 would not make the scientists decide he was worthless.

He ends using her help anyways, and if Misaka was credited with defeating him it would still a bring an end to the experiments. Since the tree diagram deemed it impossible for her to defeat him, so sorry I just see that as excuse by poor writing to try to justify his treating her like a helpless child.

You say that like he wasn't terrified. He was. He was just more angry.

If he was afraid, he would have asked for help, oh sorry if he was intelligent and afraid he would have asked for help.

[SeventhNight]

Originally Posted by Konakaga

<rant incoming warning>
His speech to Misaka in ep this, is just so painfully stupid to me.

Misaka asks if he has any ideas or plans.

Does Touma do the rational thing, and tell her that he'll fight accelerator? NO

Does he explain Misaka that his power might give him a chance vs accelerator? NOPE

Does he answer her question if he's ok with letting the clones die? NOPE

Does he ask to team up with him to try to defeat accelerator? NO

Does he just stand there spewing his ideals and looking like a moron? YUP.

Does he wait until Misaka attacks to say he is against the experiments? YES

Does he stand there until she attacks him all out to then explain things? YES

Does he treat her like a helpless child and leave her instead of asking her to help him? YUP

Did doing so waste time, and potentially have let Accelerator kill the clone for that day and miss his chance to fight him because his 'ideals' are more important? APPARENTLY.

That one scene made wish Misaka would have killed him, because it makes him look so stupid and arrogant.

No seriously can anyone give me a single good reason, why Touma waited until Misaka went full out on him to make him pass out to explain what he was thinking?

You mean answer her excuses as for why she should go to the test site and let her commit suicide? Yes that's exactly what he should have done. Mikoto wasn't entirely rational here and Touma was trying to snap her out of it. Also Touma didn't want to fight her, blocking her attacks would have been the same as trying to fight her.

The entire point of Touma fighting Accelerator was to make Accelerator seem vulnerable enough that he could lose to someone powerless like a lvl 0, if Mikoto helped then it would seem like she beat Accelerator and not Touma which wouldn't have been much of a big deal since she is the third strongest in the city. It may not have been the smart thing to do, but its not like there was no chance for Touma to win since he can bypass Accelerator's vector shield.

[Goldzero]

Originally Posted by greensoulreaper

What surprises me the most is how not much is being said about Accelerator, even though he gives you a ton of solid reasons to hate him.

oh their has been allot of hate for accelerator around the web while touma has been lacking quite a bit this season of Railgun S.

[Ilidsor]

Originally Posted by Konakaga

I am sorry you mean to tell me Touma couldn't think of his incredibly simple plan of punching Accelerator prior to nearly being shocked to death? Thank for proving my point of how stupid he was during this episode.

It's not that simple. Originally he had no idea that him beating up Accelerator would change anything. As far as he knew Accelerator would just turn around and do it again the next day if he did that. Then he got the idea from Misaka of trying to mess with what the researchers think of Accelerator.

I'd like to see how rational your thinking would be after seeing somebody killed and then learning about a conspiracy that's killing thousands more. Yes he was panicked and didn't immediately realize what he needed to do, but that's just because he's human

And if he needed time to think of a plan, why didn't he just block Misaka's attacks? Instead of almost dying and putting himself in worse state to fight Accelerator.

Misaka was freaking out and he was trying to let her calm down by using him as a punching bag. Again, he didn't know he was going to have to immediately go fight Accelerator. Hindsight is 20/20 and all that.

He ends using her help anyways, and if Misaka was credited with defeating him it would still a bring an end to the experiments. Since the tree diagram deemed it impossible for her to defeat him, so sorry I just see that as excuse by poor writing to try to justify his treating her like a helpless child.

As Misaka said, if she defeated Accelerator the researchers would decide that was within the acceptable margin of error. A level 5 losing to another level 5 wouldn't be seen as a big deal. A level 5 losing at a level 0 is.

Spoiler for Episode 15:

He didn't end up using her help he ended up using the sisters help. Note that at no point did Mikoto attack Accelerator.

If he was afraid, he would have asked for help, oh sorry if he was intelligent and afraid he would have asked for help.

Yes the intelligent thing to do would have been to through away the entire plan and the only reason it would have worked.

[Kotohono]

Originally Posted by Ilidsor

It's not that simple. Originally he had no idea that him beating up Accelerator would change anything. As far as he knew Accelerator would just turn around and do it again the next day if he did that. Then he got the idea from Misaka of trying to mess with what the researchers think of Accelerator.

I'd like to see how rational your thinking would be after seeing somebody killed and then learning about a conspiracy that's killing thousands more. Yes he was panicked and didn't immediately realize what he needed to do, but that's just because he's human

He had that info long before he let Misaka attack him, and he could have said he'd think of something instead of pulling you won't pass method to provoke her...

And

Spoiler for ep 15:

Touma is clearly good at thinking on his feet with how he handled his fights in the past and how thought of how to use power to move faster off Accelerator's power. So I trouble believing it took him that long to think of it. Which points to poor writing due inconsistency in his character.

Misaka was freaking out and he was trying to let her calm down by using him as a punching bag. Again, he didn't know he was going to have to immediately go fight Accelerator. Hindsight is 20/20 and all that.

Misaka freaked out because of his attitude, because he was stopping to stop her with literally nothing but ideals and not giving real thought or reason.

Originally Posted by Ilidsor

As Misaka said, if she defeated Accelerator the researchers would decide that was within the acceptable margin of error. A level 5 losing to another level 5 wouldn't be seen as a big deal. A level 5 losing at a level 0 is.

Spoiler for Episode 15:

He didn't end up using her help he ended up using the sisters help. Note that at no point did Mikoto attack Accelerator.

Spoiler for ep 15:

Misaka was the one who thought of how to stop Accelerator's plasma, if she hadn't Touma was dead, how was that not help from her?

And sorry I just don't buy that when the whole experiment is based around the assumption Accelerator is the strongest losing to anyone would upset their calculations, as according to the clones if he had fought and killed Misaka seriously it would have upset the calculation enough to be beyond correction, so I can only assume that her being part of defeating him would also greatly upset their calculation.

So again I see it as excuse for Touma to go solo and be the "hero" to justify his ego to treat Misaka as a helpless child, when even just defensively her power could helped Touma defeat Accelerator easier.

And lastly I don't hate Touma, so much as the Author for how poorly this part was written.

[SeventhNight]

Originally Posted by Konakaga

And sorry I just don't buy that when the whole experiment is based around the assumption Accelerator is the strongest losing to anyone would upset their calculations, as according to the clones if he had fought and killed Misaka seriously it would have upset the calculation enough to be beyond correction, so I can only assume that her being part of defeating him would also greatly upset their calculation.

So again I see it as excuse for Touma to go solo and be the "hero" to justify his ego to treat Misaka as a helpless child, when even just defensively her power could helped Touma defeat Accelerator easier.

And lastly I don't hate Touma, so much as the Author for how poorly this part was written.

If Mikoto defeated Accelerator it would have disrupted the calculations to an 'acceptable range' since a lot of calculations were done around Mikoto herself (and other lvl 5s as well), if he lost to someone whose power is completely unknown to most in the city and is considered 'powerless' that would be a different issue. If Mikoto beat Accelerator it could be attributed to unexpected growth on her part that couldn't be accounted for due to Tree Diagram's destruction but in the end it would be because she's also a lvl 5.

I also want to comment on other things you've said but that would delve into spoilers for the novel series if you want to know PM me.

[Ilidsor]

Originally Posted by Konakaga

He had that info long before he let Misaka attack him, and he could have said he'd think of something instead of pulling you won't pass method to provoke her...

You're assuming he's some sort of perfect person. He's not. He has flaws. That doesn't make him an idiot. It makes him human.

The fact of the matter is that humans don't think well under that kind of pressure and terror. Remember how Misaka could only blindly attack and then collapse into panic when she first found out about the experiment?

And

Spoiler for ep 15:

Touma is clearly good at thinking on his feet with how he handled his fights in the past and how thought of how to use power to move faster off Accelerator's power. So I trouble believing it took him that long to think of it. Which points to poor writing due inconsistency in his character.

There's a big difference between thinking on your feet in a fight and figuring out the most rational way to end this experiment immediately.

Misaka freaked out because of his attitude, because he was stopping to stop her with literally nothing but ideals and not giving real thought or reason.

Yes, because again it was all he could think to do. You're acting like he did this on purpose but he wasn't. He was under a lot of panic and trying his best. Sure he could have done it better but again hindsight is 20/20/

Spoiler for ep 15:

Misaka was the one who thought of how to stop Accelerator's plasma, if she hadn't Touma was dead, how was that not help from her?

Spoiler for Episode 15:

Because she didn't use her power. Yes she saved his life but she did so by getting the sisters to act. If she had used her power it would have had a different ending. Without her power she's just a middle school student after all.

so I can only assume that her being part of defeating him would also greatly upset their calculation.

It's not that simple. The sisters thought that Accelerator killing Misaka might make Accelerator grow so much that they would have to recalculate the experiment, and it might be impossible. However nowhere does it say that this is a fact, and that it was anything more than the sisters being careful. There's no evidence that the scientists would stop the experiment because of that.

[Chaos2Frozen]

I can summarized all this by clearing up one of the misconception that Konakaga- The assumption that Kamijou had his plan before confronting her.

This isn't true of course but I guess from an Anime-only perspective people could make that mistake.

[Kotohono]

Originally Posted by Ilidsor

It's not that simple. The sisters thought that Accelerator killing Misaka might make Accelerator grow so much that they would have to recalculate the experiment, and it might be impossible. However nowhere does it say that this is a fact, and that it was anything more than the sisters being careful. There's no evidence that the scientists would stop the experiment because of that.

"For those scientist, predictions made the Tree Diagram are absolute." - Misaka

Even if Misaka was to help and receive credit it disproves the Tree Diagram's predictions being perfect and call the basis for the whole experiment into question. It being proved wrong on a fight it viewed Misaka having near zero chance, is still a big deal.

Touma just calls it into question more, which is used as an excuse to let him be the solo hero and justify his stance towards Misaka.

[The Green One]

The fact still remains that Misaka was trying to sacrifice her life on a "maybe" that MIGHT stop the experiment. Touma's motivation is he wants to stop the experiment without senselessly sacrificing the lifes of people he knows. (If only he took half as good care of himself but that's something else entirely.) Misaka was grasping at straws in desperation as she was backed into a corner with no other foreseeable option short of going on a murderous killing spree of the scientist community which I don't think she has it in her to do it. Plus the intense guilt and pain over feeling responsible for 10,000 clones of herself getting butchered was making her suicidal, she wanted to save her sisters but deep down she wanted her own pain to stop as she just couldn't bear it anymore.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Konakaga

"For those scientist, predictions made the Tree Diagram are absolute." - Misaka

Even if Misaka was to help and receive credit it disproves the Tree Diagram's predictions being perfect and call the basis for the whole experiment into question. It being proved wrong on a fight it viewed Misaka having near zero chance, is still a big deal.

Touma just calls it into question more, which is used as an excuse to let him be the solo hero and justify his stance towards Misaka.

The prediction was that Misaka would lose in 185 steps. In order for this to work, she has to either defeat him before 185 moves, or survive after that number.

Misaka herself said that she's not confident in being able to defeat him, heck the whole round about way of destroying the facilities is because she doesn't want to face him. So her only option is to survive pass that number, but even if she did go 186 and the experiment was some how stopped- it doesn't mean she would survive it.

If Misaka had help from someone else, it doesn't contradict the prediction which was base on a 1v1 scenario.

[Triple_R]

Thanks to Pocari_Sweat's recommendation, I recently picked up Railgun S in spite of having dropped both the original Railgun and Index early on. So know that I'm that exceptionally rare anime-only viewer for this show that has seen very little Raildex material (in any format) prior to it. Now that I'm only 3 episodes behind being caught up, I felt compelled to comment a bit on Railgun S.

First of all, I'm surprised at the level of consternation this episode has caused for ninryu and Konakaga. I could understand their issues if Mikoto hadn't spent the better part of this anime doing one helluva John McClane impersonation. She's basically been an insane one-girl army causing likely billions of dollars in property damage with an intense single-minded drive that's on par with some of the most badass and manliest of action heroes. She single-handedly defeated Item, a group with two Level 5s on it, one of which is only one rank below Mikoto herself. I mean... what more can you possibly ask for?

But Mikoto's strength here also shows us a glaring weakness. It shows that she too quickly and readily takes the whole world on her shoulders, and absolutely refuses to try to get help when she so unmistakeably needs it.

There's an old saying that's very applicable here - "No man is an island". If men and women are equals, then doesn't it also stand to reason that no woman is an island? So why would Mikoto's fans want her to be an island, a person who does absolutely everything all on her own and never realizes that sometimes situations are beyond you and its time to trust in friends and loved ones? This isn't a gender issue, it's a common sense issue.

Watching Mikoto in this anime has been like watching Madoka Magica's Sayaka Miki in super-slow mo. In both cases, the eventual cost of feeling isolated from the rest of the world is becoming clear. Mikoto was about to throw her life away in an incredibly dumb and self-destructive plan. Thankfully, her Kamijo is a hero, and it's good that he had what it took to stop Mikoto from pointlessly throwing her life away.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

She single-handedly defeated Item, a group with two Level 5s on it, once of which is only one rank below Mikoto herself.

... Mugino's the only Level 5 in ITEM, Triple. Saiai and Rikou are Level 4s, and Frenda a Level 0.

[GreyZone]

two lvl5s in ITEM? I think you are mistaken. There should be only one lvl5 in ITEM. That girl with the detection ability is lvl4 as far as I know.


EDIT: too late

[Triple_R]

Sorry, I misremembered a piece of narration in Episode 9. I remembered Frenda calling them the great Level 5 duo, but upon rechecking Episode 9, I see that Frenda called them the great Level 5-Level 4 duo.

Still, it doesn't take much away from Mikoto's victory over Item. She defeated "the great Level 5-Level 4 duo", and that was right after a grueling victory over Frenda.


Edit: One thing I wanted to add is that I think it makes perfect sense that Touma went after Accelerator alone. There's certain situations you don't bring suicidal people into until that person has recovered from being suicidal.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Thanks to Pocari_Sweat's recommendation, I recently picked up Railgun S in spite of having dropped both the original Railgun and Index early on..

Triple R, you have no idea how much you are driving me insane right now. Is there any way to convince you to watch the first season of Railgun from episodes 4 to 14? (Feel free to skip episode 13)