2008-03-10, 04:14 | Link #861 |
Sword Wielding Penguin
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Trigger? FTW you smokkin'?
Trigger's a weak term I admit. But I was thinking more of an inherent propperty. Like the crystal lattice gel, significant force impact makes it 'solidify' and become rigid. I'm not saying BJs can't be defeated, I'm just trying to help find a function principle how say You can knock a person stupid with your bare hands one moment and cut the fabric on their jacket, and the next moment someone gets smashed from zero, up to several hundred MPH, in under less than half a second, hurtling through the roof of an office building through five floors to come to a stop almost as fast, with the same destructive force as a bunker buster bomb's penetration. Normal humans, even reinforced, being mostly water, would become a bloody smear on the roof concrete... or at least have their internal organs adequetly pulped from the accellerations, or be smeared all over the inside of their barrier. First Law of Thermodynamics, which magic has not violated, and that energy has to go SOMEWHERE. Where the FORK is it going? |
2008-03-10, 04:23 | Link #862 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Frankly, given that we saw little of what happened there, and your concession of the normal limitations of that BJ, wouldn't a simpler, more consistent explanation be active defense on Bardiche's part? After all, he had already fired off Defenser to ward off Signum's blow - is it too much to think he can aim that at the ground to protect Fate?
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2008-03-10, 04:26 | Link #863 |
Sword Wielding Penguin
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Not good enough, and I actually fired that one and it got shot down. Defensor is directional, and that doesn't remove the effects of going from 0 to 200+ in under a second and back down to 0 just as fast.
EDIT: See, the problem with a barrier is that it is expressly stated to be a 'shell' of sorts. The trouble with insane uncontrolled accellerations is that having something that's two feet in front of you won't really help it protect you from the other adverse effects of accelleration. Such as the desire for your body to go off in that direction while your internal organs desire to stay put. Newton calls that the second law of motion, I call it Sudden Prompt Local Accelleration Threshhold Syndrom. Or SPLAT! That is STILL a massive concern with uncontroleld events. Last edited by AdmiralTigerclaw; 2008-03-10 at 04:36. |
2008-03-10, 04:46 | Link #864 | ||||||
Adeptus Animus
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Okay, so I'll rephrase it: Chrono's Execution Shift moves as fast as bullets. Quote:
Defenser is a frontal defense, even if it was active it wouldn't have done Fate any good. |
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2008-03-10, 04:47 | Link #865 | ||
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Even if I grant the barrier jacket INFINITE strength, it isn't going to save Fate. The barrier jacket might be invulnerable, but Fate isn't. If that jacket hardens up in the fashion you suggest on impact, Fate's innards will be subject to even greater decelerative forces and become mincemeat even faster. Her best chance, in fact, is distance. "Give", as they call it. It provides precious extra milliseconds to decelerate, decreasing the deceleration to a more human number. Exactly the kind of thing the relatively far from skin Defensor will give that skintight BJ field / barrier complex won't... |
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2008-03-10, 04:56 | Link #866 | |
Adeptus Animus
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The Barrier Jacket's field, however, was. |
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2008-03-10, 05:04 | Link #867 | |
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Also, the GIVE isn't enough in the sequence. 200 to 0 in under a second will STILL Kill You Dead [/RAID!?] The jacket has to: 1 - Defend from physical/magical impact. (Field and Barrier) 2 - Defend from outragous accellerations. Especially concerning the external body components having accellerations != to internal organs. (???) 3 - Provide atmospheric filtering conditions. (Field) 4 - Provide basic comfort. (Fabric and Field) |
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2008-03-10, 05:38 | Link #868 | |||||||||
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1) Even if I accept time manipulation, why isn't the far view a candidate for speeding up? This is actually more likely, since the far views at least have little noise, while the close view have them clashing, calling out attack names ... etc. Any time you have sounds (much less voices), there are real crimps as to how much the time can be compressed or dilated before all the sound goes to h*ll. 2) Why can't they just have changed the mode of engagement from fast skirmish to more determined grind. Quote:
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Compared to the problems of the Barrier Jacket field, a little extra ability on Bardiche's part is nothing. Further, maybe they had rotated during the fall and just happened to be in the right position, for all you know - as I said, we saw almost nothing. Quote:
Even 200m/s to 0 in a second is just 20Gs. An ejection seat is 20Gs - again, entirely survivable. If the event is brief enough, even several hundred Gs is survivable. The brain supposedly can take up to 300Gs transient without real damage. There's no need to dream up some Star Wars like inertial compensator. Actually, it'll be pretty funny if some kind of inertial compensator was around. Those things work fine on a ship. But in this case, here's what would happen: 1) Fate hits rock, suffers deceleration. 2) The deceleration has to be neutralized to save Fate from being turned into mincemeat, so Inertial Compensation fires off to accelerate her, so her net deceleration is reduced to a more tolerable level. 3) Fate literally gets shoved through rock by her BJ's inertial compensator. 4) Hits second layer of rock. 5) Cycle repeats. OUCH! |
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2008-03-10, 06:07 | Link #869 | ||||
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200 MPH +
(Emphasis mine) She's got to be hitting that building at above Terminal. Quote:
Fate's tough for her age, but she's still a child. Quote:
But I think this would be up your alley really. It's A's episode 2. I believe it will be perfect for your measurements so long as we know the average height of a given story on most buildings. (Standard height right?) Since the blow and impact are all in one scene, and verticle, it's a same-plane calc. Just what you need. Quote:
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2008-03-10, 06:18 | Link #870 | ||||||||
Adeptus Animus
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Her being a combat veteran for one. I can understand she is shocked, but to the point where she doesn't even bother to dodge the attack? No. The only way that makes sense is if she couldn't. Quote:
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Anyway, Chrono created a large amount of projectiles, which fired at a snail's pace during the 'effect scene' It takes a full 3 seconds for only a handfull of the projectiles to cross a close up view. As soon as Zafira puts up a barrier, we see a hail of those projecties hit the barrier, the entire bombardement of projectiles is over in only two seconds, each individual projectile hit the barrier under even 1 second. Quote:
Ironic that suddenly Bardiche gets a lot of credit when it is in your favor, since a few quotes ago you were questioning his abillity to calculate such things. Last edited by Keroko; 2008-03-10 at 06:47. |
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2008-03-10, 06:29 | Link #871 |
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Join Date: Jun 2007
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If it was only a reduction of, say 20%, I don't think it would impact ammo production significantly. He'd still a factory for the job. Also, it looks like he preferred more drones over better drones, so he could send them to more places to find "interesting stuff" for him. So a cheaper approach was acceptable.
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2008-03-10, 07:20 | Link #872 |
Wild card
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Location: Finland
Age: 39
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Just a side note here, did any of the parties who are arguing about the radical deceleration involved in the part where someone is thrown through a wall and stops at the next wall consider that the first wall IS still there, and has to slow the person down quite a bit when they crash through it?
I mean, if the velocity remained the same, wouldn't that person just keep on going through the NEXT wall as well? So the actual G's involved in the whole stopping process would be radically smaller than what they would be if they went from 200m/s to 0m/s instantaneously...
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2008-03-10, 07:34 | Link #873 | ||||||||||||||
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Anyway, why am I required to do all calculations to disprove everyone's dreams? Quote:
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Further, this computation is much simpler. Defensor. Direction: Approximately down. Distance: Maximum extension. Power: Max (of course) Fire. Further, the same can be said of you. One post ago, you were willing to say Bardiche can calculate trajectories and set up defenses in 1/3rd of a second. Now, he can't even re-activate the Auto-Guard in what according to you is a second? |
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2008-03-10, 08:01 | Link #874 | ||||||||
Adeptus Animus
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Now you're just in senslesly denying. The scene was 'clash clash from a distance' shift to 'clash up close, slowed down for effect' to say that there is 'an unknown time skip' between those two scenes is pure denial. Which, even if true, does not change the fact that they hit at the speed of bullets. Quote:
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I yielded that point to you, if you recall. However, you are contradicting yourself at the moment. |
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2008-03-10, 08:59 | Link #875 | |||||||||||
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But at least it shows, certainly, that not all "fields" are created equal. Quote:
Fine. Panzergeist is a field. Now justify your belief that all fields allow mobility. Quote:
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By the way, I've analyzed the sequence. Fate took from Frame 12859 (loss of flash) to Frame 12894 to fall into the building (smoke pillar). That's about 35 frames. The distance ... i frame 12858 (last frame with a light point to allow a distance fix), the distance between building and point is ~291px. A window is about 5px tall. Figuring they are about 2m tall, the scale is 2.5px=m. So 291/2.5=116.4m, and that over 35 frames = 99.77m/s, so the average speed was about 100m/s. Quote:
It is only kind of funny there, but had this happened on a solid piece of ground, not an elevated floor, this might have happened: 1) Fate hits ground, decelerates. 2) Compensator fires to accelerate Fate so deceleration won't be fatal. 3) Ground continues to resist, creating greater decelerative force. Compensator accelerates harder. 4) Steps 2 and 3 begin to recycle rapidly (as in microseconds). The forces and pressure surges. Suddenly, the compensator gives out because it overreached its limit and Fate dies from deceleration. Another possible fate: 1) Fate hits ground, decelerates. 2) Compensator fires to accelerate Fate. 3) Ground yields. Fate is plunged into the Earth by massive accelerative forces from the compensator. 4) Fate is trapped inside Earth, asphyxiates. |
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2008-03-10, 12:07 | Link #876 |
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
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I want to point out something.
Vice shot at a range beyond 100 meters. Nanoha is said to be able to outrange Vice. Logically, Nanoha thus can shoot beyond 100 meters. Also, all these claims of surviving impacts and stuff at 400 MPH... if this is so, why do cars going at 60-80KMH KILL people with the impacts? *yawns*
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2008-03-10, 12:20 | Link #877 |
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Hah? When was it said that Nanoha can outrange Vice? This little statement must have missed me in flight.
And what does it mean by "outrange"? Does it mean Nanoha's beam can hold itself together for a longer distance? That's very possible because Nanoha is so much higher in power. Or does it mean the ability to get real hits at particular distances? Ergonomics here... even counting that most Blasters are unchoked shotgun blasts. For your second question, it is partially because impacts involves a lot of vagaries. Which part hit? Where? Which angle? ... etc. There are also many mechanisms of death, such as being crushed by your own car, something a little different. However, given their stated decelerations, it is certainly possible to live through. For all we know, if Signum blasted Fate down the same way again, she wouldn't be so lucky. Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-03-10 at 12:32. |
2008-03-10, 12:35 | Link #878 |
Truth Martyr
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I think you were the one who said Nanoha outranged Vice. Or something. I'm too tired.
I wanna point out something on stocks: they help the accuraccy but you don't really need them for sniping if you have a good bipod. Carlost Hathcock's 2,200 meter kill was with a scoped M2 machine gun with no stock. SEALs train with the MP5N's stock retracted.
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2008-03-10, 12:37 | Link #879 | ||
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2008-03-10, 12:42 | Link #880 |
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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Well, we've seen that Mid mages have a method of cushioning ground impacts - Yuuno used it to save Nanoha from falling early in S1, and Chrono managed to brake right at ground level in A's after getting walloped by Mask. (But the first was an active-type defense - RH didn't do it on its own - and the second may have just been Chrono's flight spell recovering...)
We know Fate is just plain quick; obviously if she's using Sonic Move, that's a significant amount of acceleration that she's being cushioned against. So it's at least not beyond the ability of a mage to survive that kind of acceleration in other circumstances (and, indeed, she did survive it.) Actually, here's a good question - how often do we see a character sustain an injury through the barrier jacket? That would give us an idea of what it takes to penetrate the jackets, and the sorts of things it protects poorly against. Hm... Season 1, we don't see a lot of this. Chrono got a head wound in the Garden somewhere, and Yuuno's taping up Nanoha's ankle, but we don't see either injury happen. (Let's discount the outliers, like Fate grabbing on to an unsealed Jewel Seed, or Fate's mom going through her jacket like hot butter.) Fate's jacket takes a lot of damage from Nanoha's Divine Buster and then Starlight Breaker, but Fate doesn't actually sustain much in the way of damage (even though she had an uncontrolled fall into water at the end.) A's, however, is full of this sort of thing... |
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