Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Tak

You know guys, I've always thought the opposite would occur. If Fllay had a brother, he wouldn't swear revenge on Kira, instead, it'd go something like this:

Fllay's bro: Kira, I am Fllay's brother, I am sure you remember me!

Kira: I... what happened to your sister was...

Fllay's bro: Say no more! You have done humanity a great favor!

Kira: NYUH!?

Fllay's bro: You have no idea how difficult it was to live with that psycho bitch!

Kira: Don't remind me...

Kira: Then again, I had a great sex with her.

Fllay’s bro: Yeah, me too.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Kira: Then again, I had a great sex with her.

Fllay’s bro: Yeah, me too.

Both paused for a good 10 seconds...

YOU WHAT!? Kira & Fllay's lil bro exclaimed.

THIS.IS.WAR!

- Tak

[Soaring Griffin]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

The one that every one claims "fixed" the series is SRW Z,

Can anyone give me the specifics on what that game did to "fix" Destiny?

[Aquaman OS]

Shinn develops into a proper Kamille type character as opposed to just a violent berserker and has more examples of his good side instead of just raging at people all the time.

Kira admits his way of doing things was probably out of line, although he is proven right in the end.

Stella can live, although that's optional.

Athrun doesn't get Savior destroyed until his "betrayal" so he's not just moping around and gets to play an active part in Berlin and Angel down.

Lunamaria is able to become a good pilot.

Heine's death is slightly more dignified.

Kira gets called out that his no killing policy is holding himself back and might get himself or a friend killed one day. On the flip side Shinn is called out for caring more about Stella (an enemy) than his allies and the city during the Berlin incident. He's also told that's he's too brutal in battle and while killing an enemy isn't wrong it's not something that should be done thoughtlessly either.

Assuming you fufilled a secret Shinn can decide not to side with Durandal in the end and he and Luna defect to the AA side (and you can later bring Rey and Talia over as well so they don't die).

And the dialogue is written by competent people, so its alot more meaningful than just saying names and making vague statements.

[aeriolewinters]

It doesn’t have to be 1:1. They could just kidnapped Lacus so that makes Kira determined instead of being EMO. Or, go with the 1:1 way and "kill" Lacus but make Kira realized that the Bro faked Lacus's death a lot sooner .

Kira's no detective, hell the closest one to a detective; Athrun isn't even a good one. Going by Kira's blaming Durandal immediately after he knew of Meer... isn't a strong indication he'd realize a fakeout.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Kira's no detective, hell the closest one to a detective; Athrun isn't even a good one. Going by Kira's blaming Durandal immediately after he knew of Meer... isn't a strong indication he'd realize a fakeout.

Maybe I should’ve added “somehow” in my comment, coz SEED aren’t really known for its solid logic. They can come up with anything for all I care . Just don’t make Kira going EMO for too long like you said.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Assuming you fufilled a secret Shinn can decide not to side with Durandal in the end and he and Luna defect to the AA side (and you can later bring Rey and Talia over as well so they don't die).

And the dialogue is written by competent people, so its alot more meaningful than just saying names and making vague statements.

This part is canon with SRW Z2 first and SRW Z2 second.

- Tak

[Destined_Fate]

Errr.. Shinn is on your side for Z2 Saga, though he starts out as an enemy in z2.2 due to seeking refuge with OZ based on Kamille's advice for the time, and doesn't need to defect as GSD plot was taken care of in Z1. Shinn even rationalizes how much he hates organizations like OZ because of his experiences with Durandal's manipulation during Z1.

Durandal is also a reason why the Z1 case are suspicious over the accusations thrown at Zero up to the path split.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

In Durandal's mind Kira wouldn't be able to do anything at all with Lacus gone. Even if he swore vengence and to follow Durandal to the ends of the earth to kill him his one man crusade wouldn't get very far in a Murasame by himself.

Same with Athrun. He was totally obvious that the attack ever happened until he met Kira that one day, which would not have happened had AA not interfered in that battle, which also wouldn't have happened if Kira didn't have his super MS and battleship still in storage.

And even if Athrun did turn on him, Durandal had a plan for that. It was called Shinn Asuka, who eliminated both Kira and Athrun when they turned on Durandal and required a Lacus Faction save to keep them alive and rearm them, which would not happen if Lacus was dead.

So really Durandal thinks he had everything covered. The only thing that really ruined his plans was Clyne Faction having all their stuff hidden and ready for use and Lacus moblizing an army against him.

Of course if Lacus died for real Kira would have taken Freedom and unleashed a swath of vengence against Zaft, and probably wouldn't have been quite so nice about it. But Durandal doesn't think he still has Freedom so it wasn't something he considered.

The way I see it, Impulse was made to deal with Kira eventually. Durandal likely took into account the possibility that they restored the freedom. The Impulse is a good machine in it's own right but it's also a machine seemingly tailored to Kira's fighting style by giving it easily replacable pieces. Kill Lacus, have Shinn become skilled enough to deal with any backlash from Kira, when Kira and the Freedom are finally taken care of he gives Shinn the Destiny a much more powerful but not as suited to fighting Kira's style. Thats probably why he never gave Shinn the Destiny until AFTER the freedom was destroyed. Shinn was given the Destiny almost immediately afterwrds. so if it was such a powerful machine, why not give it to Shinn to face the Freedom? because Shinn would be much more likely to survive against Kira with the Impulse.

[aeriolewinters]

Impulse won't work if Kira was as bloodlusted as he was in Phase-50 of SEED (theoretically if Lacus dies).

[I Fail at Life]

It's not that Impulse was tailor made for Freedom, its "coincidentally" when Impulse shows up that Freedom losses its high performance and 99.9% of its attacks. Before Impulse arrives Freedom is its normal self, but when Impulse does arrive it moves like a brick...
All of this which is inconsistent with every episode before it, including SEED, and in the same episode.

[Soaring Griffin]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Shinn develops into a proper Kamille type character as opposed to just a violent berserker and has more examples of his good side instead of just raging at people all the time.

Kira admits his way of doing things was probably out of line, although he is proven right in the end.

Stella can live, although that's optional.

Athrun doesn't get Savior destroyed until his "betrayal" so he's not just moping around and gets to play an active part in Berlin and Angel down.

Lunamaria is able to become a good pilot.

Heine's death is slightly more dignified.

Kira gets called out that his no killing policy is holding himself back and might get himself or a friend killed one day. On the flip side Shinn is called out for caring more about Stella (an enemy) than his allies and the city during the Berlin incident. He's also told that's he's too brutal in battle and while killing an enemy isn't wrong it's not something that should be done thoughtlessly either.

Assuming you fufilled a secret Shinn can decide not to side with Durandal in the end and he and Luna defect to the AA side (and you can later bring Rey and Talia over as well so they don't die).

And the dialogue is written by competent people, so its alot more meaningful than just saying names and making vague statements.

Meh, doesn't sound like much of an improvement. I mean making Shinn into a "Kamille type character" instead of being the character he was supposed to be (a tragic anti-villain type character) just sounds like a lazy cop out. I also have to wonder if the guys who made the game really understood why Kira did what he did in the series. But that's just me.

[Skye629]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

That depends exactly which one you're looking for. The one that every one claims "fixed" the series is SRW Z, which is for PS2 (and region locked so you need a Japanese PS2) which goes through the entire story and makes more sense of it, and gives you an alternate route ending where Shinn decides not to support Durandal. It's also the longest and most detailed of the story arcs and has almost every unit including Saviour and Chaos and Abyss as enemy units. However a few characters are missing, or demoted to extremely minor NPCs because the game is voiced, and Cagalli's VA was still on the outs, and Heine's was too expensive, and Dearka's wasn't important enough to bring in for a handful of lines so they aren't really in it. Also if you like Kira you're kind of out of luck as it's a Shinn focused game.

It also has the Angel Down stage involve both halves of the cast fighting each other.

SRW K is for DS and region free so if you have any DS you can play it. But the game pretty much rushes through Destiny before the game is half over. You play 3 stages basically, Berlin Angel Down and finale. You play as Kira's side until after the finale, at which point Shinn and Luna join and overall the story is mostly ignored. But it has Cagalli, Heine, Dearka, Andy and Hilda as PC's which Z did not.
It also has Stargazer, but that plot is resolved in a single stage.

SRW L is also for DS and does the Destiny story, with the difference that Kira's side doesn't antagonise Shinn's so the friction between the casts is removed entirely. Instead Kira's side mostly hides out and Shinn's side gets the focus. Shinn again turns on Durandal and this time it happens by default. Like with K nearly all the characters are in. But because it uses K's sprites all the units that weren't in K aren't in L which means Athrun has no Saviour and has to use a spare Zaku till he gets IJ and Chaos and Abyss aren't in, so Sting is always in a Destroy and Auel never appears. The removal of the friction between casts kind of kills the tension of the story, and as it is alot of the plot is still skipped so it's not quite on the level of Z1.

Z2 for PSP (region free) and UX for 3ds (Not region free) also have Destiny, but the plot's finished before the game starts which means you only get Kira Athrun Shinn and Luna and they have no real plot.

Dammit so the best one is region locked? If only it wasn't as I have a PS2 (any computer emulated ones by any chance?)

I can play all the others as I have a DS and PSP

Are there any subs for the games?

[The American Average]

So i kinda had a weird thought, you know how Cagalli kinda falls to peer pressure and lets Orb fall into Seiran's hands. With all the peer pressure, the no friends from Seed (AA,TSA,people from there)or Orb Military, like Kisaka, to help her through this hard time, Would Lacus have fallen into peer pressure like Cagalli if she was in a similar situation?

So an example, lets say at the end of Seed Lacus just went to be Chairman instead of Durandal. So the situation is Earth Forces really hit the one of the Plants with a Nuke killing millions of people inside. So pretty much everyone in the Plants and ZAFT want blood for blood. So Kira goes to Orb to help Cagalli because of the whole Junis 7 and helps Orb with Aid on the nation and isn't coming back, A la Athrun did to Cagalli during the real Destiny show. There is no AA, TSA or big supporters of the Clyne faction crew, in the Plants because they are to busy doing something important as well like aiding the Junis 7 crash sites, stuff like that.

In the ZAFT Supreme Council all of the members were good friends with Siegel and Patrick Zala, and there is also Durandal member of the court. So the members twist and turn everything Lacus father and Patrick said to justify a retaliation attack on the Earth Forces. Durandal, would be like the Yuna for this story, pretending to be the helpful hand when really just meeting his own ends I'll say that his goal is still to make the Destiny plan but first he has to take out Lacus to do this to get the power he needs to move things along.

The Public won't be calmed easily, because of the Nuke attack, so no little Music video to get them to listen. Of course the public can be calmed, but it would have to be a good reason showing what the Council is doing to help. special aid and stuff like that.

So what do you think, do you think Lacus would fall to that sort of peer pressure Cagalli did if she was faced by a similar situation? I think yes, if Lacus had been in a situation like this with no friends around, with everyone in the Supreme Council going against her, with Durandal helping, she would have fell.
(if anyone could make up a better scenario than mine be my guest)

[Admiral Larsen]

Originally Posted by The American Average

So i kinda had a weird thought, you know how Cagalli kinda falls to peer pressure and lets Orb fall into Seiran's hands. With all the peer pressure, the no friends from Seed (AA,TSA,people from there)or Orb Military, like Kisaka, to help her through this hard time, Would Lacus have fallen into peer pressure like Cagalli if she was in a similar situation?

So an example, lets say at the end of Seed Lacus just went to be Chairman instead of Durandal. So the situation is Earth Forces really hit the one of the Plants with a Nuke killing millions of people inside. So pretty much everyone in the Plants and ZAFT want blood for blood. So Kira goes to Orb to help Cagalli because of the whole Junis 7 and helps Orb with Aid on the nation and isn't coming back, A la Athrun did to Cagalli during the real Destiny show. There is no AA, TSA or big supporters of the Clyne faction crew, in the Plants because they are to busy doing something important as well like aiding the Junis 7 crash sites, stuff like that.

In the ZAFT Supreme Council all of the members were good friends with Siegel and Patrick Zala, and there is also Durandal member of the court. So the members twist and turn everything Lacus father and Patrick said to justify a retaliation attack on the Earth Forces. Durandal, would be like the Yuna for this story, pretending to be the helpful hand when really just meeting his own ends I'll say that his goal is still to make the Destiny plan but first he has to take out Lacus to do this to get the power he needs to move things along.

The Public won't be calmed easily, because of the Nuke attack, so no little Music video to get them to listen. Of course the public can be calmed, but it would have to be a good reason showing what the Council is doing to help. special aid and stuff like that.

So what do you think, do you think Lacus would fall to that sort of peer pressure Cagalli did if she was faced by a similar situation? I think yes, if Lacus had been in a situation like this with no friends around, with everyone in the Supreme Council going against her, with Durandal helping, she would have fell.
(if anyone could make up a better scenario than mine be my guest)

I would have loved to have seen that. Cagalli should not have been the one to go through that madness, it should have been Lacus mainly due to having pretty bad character development and her actions in SEED. For her, it was time to pay the piper for her actions. Of course all of that was impossible due to the main scriptwriter, aka Fukuda's wife.

[Skye629]

Originally Posted by The American Average

So i kinda had a weird thought, you know how Cagalli kinda falls to peer pressure and lets Orb fall into Seiran's hands. With all the peer pressure, the no friends from Seed (AA,TSA,people from there)or Orb Military, like Kisaka, to help her through this hard time, Would Lacus have fallen into peer pressure like Cagalli if she was in a similar situation?

So an example, lets say at the end of Seed Lacus just went to be Chairman instead of Durandal. So the situation is Earth Forces really hit the one of the Plants with a Nuke killing millions of people inside. So pretty much everyone in the Plants and ZAFT want blood for blood. So Kira goes to Orb to help Cagalli because of the whole Junis 7 and helps Orb with Aid on the nation and isn't coming back, A la Athrun did to Cagalli during the real Destiny show. There is no AA, TSA or big supporters of the Clyne faction crew, in the Plants because they are to busy doing something important as well like aiding the Junis 7 crash sites, stuff like that.

In the ZAFT Supreme Council all of the members were good friends with Siegel and Patrick Zala, and there is also Durandal member of the court. So the members twist and turn everything Lacus father and Patrick said to justify a retaliation attack on the Earth Forces. Durandal, would be like the Yuna for this story, pretending to be the helpful hand when really just meeting his own ends I'll say that his goal is still to make the Destiny plan but first he has to take out Lacus to do this to get the power he needs to move things along.

The Public won't be calmed easily, because of the Nuke attack, so no little Music video to get them to listen. Of course the public can be calmed, but it would have to be a good reason showing what the Council is doing to help. special aid and stuff like that.

So what do you think, do you think Lacus would fall to that sort of peer pressure Cagalli did if she was faced by a similar situation? I think yes, if Lacus had been in a situation like this with no friends around, with everyone in the Supreme Council going against her, with Durandal helping, she would have fell.
(if anyone could make up a better scenario than mine be my guest)

All theoretical, but I would say probably not for the peer pressure, Lacus stuck to her guns through all of SEED and DESTINY despite the odds. I would though say that she will take some form of action as a counter measure, though the extent would highly depend on how much the situation escalates (as in continued attacks following the nuke as opposed to the nuke shot being a warning/threat to surrender first before any large scale conflicts)

But she will give in if the shitty directors nerf her as they did to Cagalli in DESTINY :P

[Aquaman OS]

Unlikely. The problem is that basically everyone in Orb was against Cagalli. They were afraid of being burned again, and since Orb, though "neutral" was still largely pro natural (and many coordinators had since left) allying with the EA was the logical choice over allying with Zaft. Especially since the Seiran's largely had control and wanted to ally with EA because of Logos connections. Yuna says Cagalli can't associate with coordinators anymore which means that no coordinators are in any high positions in Orb.

Plus Cagalli has a massive emotional weakness. She's still haunted by Orb's destruction last time, as well as the revealation that not everyone thinks Uzumi's policy was the greatest thing ever after talking with Shinn. Mention that, and Cagalli basically collapses emotionally. Look how easily she caved to Shinn's angry ranting just because the jist of it was Uzumi wasn't a messiah. Yuna knows this, so he can control her with this.

In comparison not only does Lacus not have an obvious emotional vulnerabilty like that, but the Zaft council in Destiny pretty much is entirely subserviant to the chairman. They didn't argue with a single thing Durandal did, and they certainly wouldn't do so for Lacus. Durandal might, but everyone else would go with Lacus.

[Gundamx]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Lacus was pretty much the boss of the whole Terminal organization (after a few eps of hesitation just hanging out on AA). That's pretty independent I'd say. Kira was essentially working for her, not the other way around.

Kira was Orb Admiral in Destiny not Terminal
(So it's more like he is working for Cagalli than Lacus)

So i kinda had a weird thought, you know how Cagalli kinda falls to peer pressure and lets Orb fall into Seiran's hands. With all the peer pressure, the no friends from Seed (AA,TSA,people from there)or Orb Military, like Kisaka, to help her through this hard time, Would Lacus have fallen into peer pressure like Cagalli if she was in a similar situation?

1- She is not alone ( unlike Cagalli father faction = 99% dead >>> Lacus father faction (clyne faction) = 90% alive)

2- She doesn't 't show her emotion like cagalli ( act like idiot idol > than strike like ice queen when she is ready)

[The American Average]

Originally Posted by Gundamx

1- She is not alone ( unlike Cagalli father faction = 99% dead >>> Lacus father faction (clyne faction) = 90% alive)

2- She doesn't 't show her emotion like cagalli ( act like idiot idol > than strike like ice queen when she is ready)

I said in the scenario, that all/most Lacus supporters went down to earth, for the Junius 7 disaster to help with aid and aren't coming back for sometime

Lacus may not be emotional but she would have to deal with Durandal and its not like he'd let her get away with the ice queen trick.

the point of this was what if in a scenario, like Cagalli, no support from friends/groups, all head leaders against her.

[Gundamx]

Originally Posted by The American Average

I said in the scenario, that all/most Lacus supporters went down to earth, for the Junius 7 disaster to help with aid and aren't coming back for sometime

Lacus may not be emotional but she would have to deal with Durandal and its not like he'd let her get away with the ice queen trick.

the point of this was what if in a scenario, like Cagalli, no support from friends/groups, all head leaders against her.

than we will have idol Lacus sending whisper here and there to some people like shin (are you sure what you are doing is the right thing), Rey(your future is your own and not anyone else) ....etc
and next BAAM
Shin, Rey, Lunamaria, Minerva... and every ace pilots/ships has joined together to from new Clyn alliance under the lead of ice queen