2012-04-27, 11:20 | Link #102 |
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Chapter 584 thread has been started (early). Please move all relevant discussions to the new thread.
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2012-05-12, 19:47 | Link #103 | ||
The Ironman
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Performing thread necromancy here, better late than never right (or maybe not, whatever, don't care. :P)
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Technically, the chuunin exams are taking kids who barely reached puberty putting them into survival contest where it's likely at least a few won't survive, then pitting them each other in battle where even though killing isn't encouraged, it's completely possible with no penalty and maiming/torture/inflicting brutal injuries on opponents are all completely ok. Wait, not "technically". I meant "literally". Yeah, and no one has a problem with this. But yes. Danzou's actions are intolerably cruel. I wasn't "carefully" avoiding it. I don't see how it's relevant. What of it? Like you said many characters knew about it. If Danzou killing orphans was such common knowledge, how come Tsunade didn't have Danzou thrown out when she came into power? Don't recall Shikaku bringing up the fact that Danzou kill orphans and brainwash his men in the meeting when he was opposing Danzou as Hokage. If he did, it didn't seem to bother the daimyo much. Why is Sarutobi's character the only one called into question here? So my answer remains the same. There seems to be "common knowledge" that Danzou did these things, but how much of this actually sustainable fact as opposed to just "word is, this is what goes on in there" (from the perspective of the characters, I mean, we know all that to be true of course)? Danzou was a master at covering his tracks and keeping the worst of his crimes a secret. I already acknowledge that Sarutobi should've kept tighter reigns on Danzou. But I think the story is far from portraying him as Danzou's bitch, letting him get away with anything. If that was the case, Danzou would'nt have been so desperate to take his position. He could've easily used Sarutobi as his puppet.
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Last edited by Sabaku Kyu; 2012-05-12 at 20:05. |
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2012-05-12, 22:34 | Link #104 | |||||
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Join Date: May 2003
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Something like that? (chap399-400 about the quarantine and kill order respectively if you wonder) So yes it's pretty clear Sarutobi disagreed with everything Danzou and the Elders wanted but his voice mattered not and his opinion ended up being irrelevant. He wanted none of that and he failed. Quote:
And quotation marks, really? You think brainwashing is too strong a word to describe the fact that Danzou took young orphan and made them murder one another to raise them into emotionless drones living and dying at his whim? That to force them to slaughter their own comrades to make them more pliable to his orders wasn't butchery? I'm curious, what words would you use then? Enhanced education? Quote:
And that's without going into the fact that Konoha is consistently depainted into a much nicer place. Quote:
As far as I'm concerned Tsunade should have executed him after the Sai debacle. And yes sure Shikaku didn't talk about it, nor did Asuma I guess... Are we to list all the characters who didn't talk about it as if it somehow balanced those who did? Should we forget that Yamato explained it all to team 7 (hell he even told them matter-of-factly that Danzou might try a coup d'etat and end Konoha as they knew it, that's how much Danzou's schemes are common knowledge!) because another character didn't? His training method wasn't a secret and yet they let him be. Danzou should have been executed or assassinated a long time ago, every breath he took was a testament to the incompetence of Konoha's leaders. But I do agree with one thing here : your answer does remain the same... Because you still haven't answered my question! So here it is for the 3rd or 4th times, how do you reconcile Sarutobi's character with the fact that they knew what Danzou did to those kids? Do you think your theory about the lack of absolute proof is enough to explain their inaction? |
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2012-05-13, 02:07 | Link #105 | ||||
The Ironman
Join Date: Sep 2006
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The second, I have seen other translations, not stating he refused to accept what was going on, but simply that he tried to reach a truce. Regardless. Are you saying that what happened wasn't Sarutobi willingly setting aside his authority to acknowledge majority consensus when his own alternative failed, but instead just being too powerless,inept,weak--whatever you want to call it, to do anything? How's that more plausible? Obviously, Sandaime hated the idea, but everyone knew something had to be done. I don't see how you can interpret it as him simply being powerless to interfere. Quote:
Yes, what Danzou did was extreme by any standard. Monstrous. But let's call it what it is. These methods were Root's extremely strict conditioning. Danzou wanted perfectly loyal soldiers who could carry out missions without remorse or attachment. Quote:
As Kage's job is to run and protect their village. And from what we've seen, Sarutobi (and all the other Hokage) did this job to the best of their ability. But their job isn't to police their own allies. We saw that Root was an extremely convert and near autonomous organization. It's easy for such an organization's practices to become infamous without the group itself actually being exposed. I mean, some fraternities haze and it's "known" that they do but the way it's carried out makes it difficult to pin down. Or how about actual intelligence organizations issues with controversies such as waterboarding and such? Corruption is like a weed, it's not that simple to just hack it away. Yamato stated he knew about Root's practice of making its members kill each other only after he saw Sai's picture book. That makes it seem like he was using the book to confirm what he understood about Root rather than just stating pure fact
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Last edited by Sabaku Kyu; 2012-05-13 at 02:49. |
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2012-05-25, 23:12 | Link #106 | |||||
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I've already proven my point with that : Sarutobi's wishes could be -and were- overuled by the rest of the Elders who saw their own decision applied. That put Sarutobi in a weak position as a leader by definition. Your own interpretation of Sarutobi grudgingly letting this happen for lack of better option is not evidenced by anything in the manga, there is litteraly not a single line even remotely implying that this is the case. The manga doesn't show the Elders helping Sarutobi to take a distasteful decision, they show them overuling him to do what they thought best. Quote:
I don't find that colorful, merely accurate except for the last part : this doesn't make them monsters. Very brutal yes but I wouldn't say monstruous. And if you were to re-read the speech Sarutobi made after the 2nd part of the Chuunin exam he aknowledges as much, those are brutal people living in a brutal world, that's one of the main point of the story... And irrelevant because what we're talking about is beyond brutal by several orders of magnitude. All those examples you make to try to put in perspective Danzou's actions fall short, they don't even come close. Quote:
And yes the fact that he couldn't change the way the Hyuga behaves also shows weakness though it's more logical considering the feudal-like universe they live in. Quote:
Of course it's a leader's job to police his own men -and not just allies- Root are Konoha ninja they are supposed to be his men. The very fact that Root was autonomous is proof of weakness, it's amazing that you can't see that. Waterboarding? It was authorized at the highest level of governement, it wasn't corruption it was orders and it goes against your very argument : its use did smear the administration who allowed it -as it should be since they were the ones responsible. Quote:
Last edited by Hunter; 2012-05-25 at 23:22. |
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2012-05-29, 00:11 | Link #107 | |||||
The Ironman
Join Date: Sep 2006
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First, thanks for replying. Everyone else has long since tired of this. But I'll give it one more go. This will probably be my last reply, but I'm still interested in seeing what you have to say if you got anything.
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You're saying Sarutobi was powerless to stop Danzou and the elders from having the Uchiha killed, but for some reason the same people were unable to kill the last remaining Uchiha in the village, a mere boy. What was stopping them?? Offer your explanation of how Itachi's request that Sarutobi protect Sasuke from Danzou meshes with the concept that Sarutobi had no authority over him regarding the lives of the Uchiha and I'll be satisfied (well, at least i won't argue over it ) Quote:
Keep in mind I'm not trying to justify Danzou's actions here. I'm just pointing out that even the acceptable practices in Konoha can be very Spartan and brutal. With that in mind, it's not really all that shocking to me that a covert cell could exist where the recruits pitted each other in fight to the death and that it wouldn't illicit the same level of response you'd expect in a normal world. Even if it is considered heinous by the characters. Quote:
I mean has his character perceived always been perceived as weak or was Danzou just the straw that broke the camel's back? Totally agree, mentally breaking the kids and forcing them to fight each other.. that's taking it to another level. Still, there's nothing saying Sarutobi for a fact knew it was happening. It's just assumed because Yamato confront Sai about it. And I admit, if Yamato knew it's completely logical to say that Sarutobi must've known, but that doesn't really agree with the notion that Danzou tries so hard to keep everything in Root secret. If his methods are so well-known, why all the secrecy like the sealed tongues (yes, I realize that's a retcon dince Sai blabs freely about Danzou early in Pt II) Still, it's obvious Danzou wasn't brazen about his operation. He obviously strived for secrecy. Why would that even matter if everything he does is established fact in Konoha? Quote:
Like I said before. After Danzou pulled his stunt against Sasuke and Sai spoke out about Danzou's motives, it's ridiculous he was taken into any kind of custody. But before that, it doesn't seem so outrageous to me. Quote:
Point is, he waits until he confronts Sai to say anything then tells him that he deduced the meaning of the story before explaining about Root. That implies to me he was awaiting for some kind of confirmation (or rejection as the case may be) from Sai. If there's a strong common held belief that a kid's dad is abusive, and then the kid draws a picture of his dad hitting his mom, I'd go right ahead and tell the kid his dad is abusive. Because then it's just blatantly obvious. Yamato states the information like a fact. But he was also about state Sakura's feelings about Naruto like a fact. Is it because he "knows" that? He can get inside Sakura's head? Or is it because he just pieced something together that's become obvious to him.
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Last edited by Sabaku Kyu; 2012-05-29 at 00:36. |
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2012-05-29, 09:37 | Link #108 | ||||||
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And as you say it's a pointless argument anyway because it doesn't relativise Danzou's actions which do illicit the same level of response in out world and their. Quote:
Look I will try to summarize the Danzou problem in 3 points. Danzou ran an autonomous praetorian black ops operation made of brainwashed war orphans so either Sarutobi
Hell, just to highlight how the Kage position in general looks powerless in front of Danzou : after the man was destituted and Root disbanded it changed nothing and they knows it. The man can simply walk in the Kage and the Elders, have one of his own man officially part of a mission whereas he's not supposed ro run anything anymore and commit treason as he sees fit with absolute impunity which is such common knowledge that Yamato flatly told team 7 about it at the beginning of the mission. Quote:
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