2012-11-14, 06:07 | Link #581 | |
Tin Can
Join Date: Nov 2009
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1) Kill the innocent, oppressor race couple who just saved you 2) Kill every soldier sent against you in a fight YOU picked with the State 3) Kill every state alchemist regardless of their own culpability in the "crime" against your people (Iron Blood Alchemist is the best example, so is his targeting of Armstrong) 4) Hate every one who is of the oppressor race. 5) Demand stronger, more violent action against the oppressor race. 6) Highly protective of members of his own race. The only difference is that Mogamett is the person that actually succeeded, while Scar didn't and was given a new direction in life. I think Scar (early on) deserves as much punches as Mogarett does, but you know what is even better? Making him drop his hate, making him realize he is "wrong" (before or after punching him out). |
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2012-11-14, 06:11 | Link #582 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
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Mogamett is a blind fool. That is a huge difference to me. BESIDES! Scar did get his ass whopped more than once, deservingly. People didn't just go easy on the fool, not only was he a wanted man, but Ed & Al clashed with him repeatedly until his eventual redemption. As for the last part, that's fine. As long as he gets his ass whopped first. Remember, Shounen Sunday here!
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2012-11-14, 07:59 | Link #583 |
The old ace of Arlington
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Plain of Doleful Melody - ANI
Age: 36
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I think we're going a bit too far here! Let's make it simple: A guy that treat people like animal just because they don't have any special abilities is absolutely not okay! Before this chapter, I actually thought there's something Alladdin can do to help him but I was wrong. He needs to have his ass whooped hard!
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2012-11-14, 11:56 | Link #584 | |
今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている
Join Date: Jan 2009
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That's like an ant trying to tell me how to live my life...
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Last edited by Cosmic Eagle; 2012-11-14 at 12:10. |
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2012-11-14, 12:39 | Link #585 | |
ANEGO Worshiper
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: By the vending machine, drinking tea.
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Legit advice... |
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2012-11-14, 16:41 | Link #586 | |
Free Opinions Available
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Vacationing in the southern isles.
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Unfortunately rulers with too much power will always want to control their subjects' movements. Witness medieval laws on serfs leaving their masters' land, the Berlin wall, North Korea, etc. The option to "vote with your feet" relieves the pressures which can cause revolts. If taxes are too high in California or New York, moving to Arizona, Florida or Texas is always an alternative. |
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2012-11-14, 17:10 | Link #587 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Geez, I'm gone for a day or two and I see a full-blown political/morality debate erupted in my absence..... usually, I experience that in OP threads!
Anyway, I'm pretty much with Aohige here. As good as it may be, Magi is no Watchmen, so I see no reason to dig through every page for every little ounce of DEEP, COMPLEX SUBTEXT or whatever. Sometimes, a pulp shonen series is just that: A pulp shonen series. I mean, it's like reading a Tintin story and wondering why Herge never delved into the deep, dark tale behind Captain Haddock's alcoholism, lol. And with THAT being said.... I eagerly await the moment when Aladdin (or some other great force) serves that racist ol' Dumblemort a slice of humble pie. |
2012-11-14, 19:12 | Link #588 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
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5th District - 200,000 - Goi 4th District - 80,000 - Goi 3rd District - 20,000 - Goi & Magicians? 2nd District - 3,000 - Magicians 1st District - 500 - Magicians So the magoi of 200k people can, with magic tools, do enough work to sustain 303,500 people. Food, drink, probably fibers and fabrics for clothing, shelter and temperature control, and even more than that (from what we saw of the city). Really, although even 4th District goi looked down on the 5th District people, they're very respectable if their magoi helps do all that. Sure, they can't pay their "tax liabilities"--but even if they're not productive through work or knowledge, by just living their magoi lets the city really thrive. With a little bit of work, the system could really be amazing. Get rid of the death pits. Give the minors a bit of education and thus give them a shot at social mobility and 4th district life if they want it. With a little political history and social reform, I bet you'd get a lot of people staying in the 5th District. Good odds that it would be a much better life than an average peasant in many other countries. And more productive too. It's too bad he grew up in a country full of people like Jamil. If he'd met more people like Hakuei or the old Kouga lady things could've been even more amazing. |
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2012-11-14, 20:50 | Link #589 | |||
Tin Can
Join Date: Nov 2009
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I am not sure why you want Magi to be dumbed down to Bleach/Naruto level (where the solution is to beat the next guy up) just because of its perceived status as "pulp shounen". By that logic, FMA shouldn't have done what it did too (since it is too a "pulp shounen"), and OP shouldn't talk about racism or insititutionalized caste systems ("pulp shounen" too). Funny you should mention Watchman. It is precisely by introducing complex themes and characterization into "pulp" comic books that Alan Moore, with V for Vendetta and Watchmen, (and Frank Miller with his work on Batman) eventually created the subgenre that pretentious pricks these days call "Graphic Novels" and generally raised the bar for comic book writing as a whole (disregarding the Dark Age excesses). I don't see why some complexity or characterization should not be introduced into "pulp" media, just by virtue of being "pulp". It is not like I am asking for Alan Moore level of "EVERY PAGE HAS ARTISTIC MERIT AND THEMATIC IMPORTACE" thingmajig, but rather the general ideas and portrayal would benefit from a level of realism. Quote:
Not to mention that you only need so many doctors and scholars, what about people who miss it by only a little? Do you really think those people will be willing to go back to the 5th after experiencing life in the 4th and having a boatload of knowledge? Status demotion is one of the surest way to incite revolution. The current situation is sustainable because it is based on the fact that "there is no way out", "they don't know how much better it is above the 5th" for the young people and "I like it here" for the old. There is also a level of "resignation" that they will always be in the 5th. However, if you let the young have a taste of the 4th, then banish them back to the 5th.... "Dumbledouche" does have hatred for the Goi (though I am not sure if it is blind, since he explicitly set out to keep the Goi down politically because he thinks they cannot be trusted with anything). However, Marga herself said that becoming a scholar or doctor is a way out of the 5th. There already exist some form of social mobility between the 5th and 4th/3rd, I think talking about social mobility is moot. Quote:
PLus, we shouldn't use animal analogy just because Mogamett uses them too Last edited by Rainrir; 2012-11-14 at 21:18. |
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2012-11-14, 22:05 | Link #590 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
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The FMA you keep bringing up, as I already mentioned, has plenty of prowl and beat up the bad guys. The Scar comparison you made, I already told you Scar was beat down in fights PLENTY of times before his redemption. It makes no sense you want to protect and shield Mogamett from violence, yet you go and make comparison to Scar, who.... uh.... was an antagonist the protagonists FOUGHT IN BATTLES over, and over, and over. By your own logic, you're calling FMA "Naruto and Bleach level". You keep evading these points that directly contradicts your statements..
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2012-11-14, 22:10 | Link #591 | |
Tin Can
Join Date: Nov 2009
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Bro, I ALREADY before said that we should "make him realize he is wrong (before or after beating him up)" (emphasis mine). Large number of beatdowns Scar had have nothing to do with the protagonists (beyond the first fight), most of Scar's beat downs are inflicted on him by the "common foe" the Homoculus. Yet, none of the beatdowns by them cause any character development in Scar, until he is explicitly shown why he is wrong by Winry and his fellow Ishvalans. That is the resolution I think be better for Mogamett, before or after he is beaten up (emphasis mine). I even think beating him up is optional if his word view is shattered and he make positive changes, but obvious that will depend on how the story goes. I am arguing against common shounen solutions of "just beating the crap out of the guy and everything will fix itself". This is what I mean by "Bleach/Naruto" level, and it really is the baseline standards of most Shounen since the "softening" of the late 80s (and even before really). |
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2012-11-14, 22:13 | Link #592 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
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"The Hero will save us! We don't have to think for ourselves, because he will defeat the evil AND provide us with answers!" No, I don't see that as "superior writing", and rather pretentious actually.
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2012-11-14, 22:20 | Link #593 | |
Tin Can
Join Date: Nov 2009
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Just because the hero shows someone a potentially better path, doesn't mean that he is necessarily a messiah and "OH everything is fixed by the hero, including how we should think". Remember Ali Baba and Kassim? Ali Baba didn't make Kassim drop his hate because he is a messiah, but becaus he did make Kassim see what he has been blind to all this time by his example. Kassim came to the conclusion himself after he saw what Ali Baba was really like, how they are different. The same for Scar, he didn't have anyone force the ideas upon him, only after seeing what you call "messiah complex" behavoir of Winry and Miles that he truly considers changing. I am merely arguing that Mogamett has a character arc that could evolve like these characters, and I believe it would neither be pretentious nor be a "messiah complex" if he does have an arc like that. Last edited by Rainrir; 2012-11-14 at 22:33. |
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2012-11-14, 22:30 | Link #594 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
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Look at the theme of Magi, go re-read the entire 14 volumes over if you have to. What is Aladdin's role? Do you think he's Jesus Christ? Or even a leader? Aladdin's role is, has always been, the three wise men + Merlin. He was never there to provide answer, he is there to support the "worthy king". How did the story resolve Kouga clan conflict? All Aladdin did was "beat up the bad guy" when the worthy king was in danger. The Kouga people and Hakuei figured out the rest. Same with Balbaad. Aladdin is there to support his king, not LEAD. I can't believe you haven't realized the main theme of this story this far into the manga. Aladdin's role here in Magnostatt is, obviously, as ALWAYS, to judge whether the king is worthy or not. You are shutting out criticisms to your posts, not really reading what marvel is saying, and jumping to your own conclusions, bringing up "oh so you want Naruto and Bleach level crap?" which does not help your argument at all. No one is saying Mogamett should end here. No one is saying he shouldn't have redemption. His eventual redemption is his problem. Aladdin is not there to babysit the asshole. There's no problem with beating sense into him, and leaving the kingdom to handle its own problem. Things may be different if there's another King Candidate here, but as far as we can see, there aren't any introduced. As for your latter half of the problem... Aladdin is not Alibaba. Alibaba is not here. If anyone's Jesus Christ, it's Alibaba.
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Last edited by aohige; 2012-11-14 at 22:45. |
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2012-11-14, 22:49 | Link #595 | |||
Tin Can
Join Date: Nov 2009
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Read 162, he explicitly said he cannot leave the 5th alone, this implies he is taking a more proactive role in this, especially since Alibaba is now not with him. Heck, read the chapter were Aladdin says he must go to Magoshautt alone, Aladdin already said that there are some things he must do alone (without his King Candidate) Not to mention that in the Balbadd arc, he specifically said that he believes Alibaba can and will stop Kassim, when their Magoi are merged, because "You are the king I selected". Aladdin does have a desired outcome for the Balbadd conflict and he actively helps towards that end. In fact, Alibaba would never had Aladdin's acknowledgment as his King Candidate if not for the fact that Aladdin approves of the qualities he thinks Alibaba has, which directly means they are on the same page for desirable solutions to problems of the world. You are painting an overly passive role for Aladdin. Quote:
I don't think "being a deus ex machina" is a "main theme" of this manga. Yes, alot of things will require the people they helped to "do it themselves". However, by Aladdin's ACTIVE intervention it prevented the Balbadd situation that is on the brink from becoming a full-on slaughter (when he unleashed his Solomon's wisdom for everyone in Balbadd). He also intervened to prevent a full-on war between Kouga and Kou. While you are right that he does "leave somethings for everyone to work on", he isn't as passive as you are trying to portray . Quote:
I don 't understand why you portray my stance as trying to "protect him from violence" (which originated from you) or "Aladdin must redeem him" (which also originated from you). The fact is that Aladdin already wants to get involved with dismantling the system, this is what he said so himself. I don't see why you think his role is merely that of an observer drone. Last edited by Rainrir; 2012-11-14 at 23:14. |
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2012-11-14, 23:17 | Link #596 |
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
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Aladdin has always been the supporter of his king.
I didn't say he wasn't active, I said he doesn't LEAD. He's always been active, but never in the spotlight. Magi is a Merlin, not an Arthur. He knows the nature of his being. That's always been the case in the manga, he is not a king. He may help in changing of Magnoshutatt, but ultimately it will be up to the magicians themselves to do the work. As I have repeatedly been saying, he's not a babysitter of the mortals, nor is he there to spoil them. Again, he is not the messiah. You're suggesting Aladdin take control of the situation, and revolutionalize the system. That's not his role though. And besides, humans have to stand on their on feet, be it guided by a human leader or not. Divine intervention should take a backseat, otherwise it's "spoiling the mortals", IMO. Which Aladdin has never done, and I think will never do.
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Last edited by aohige; 2012-11-14 at 23:30. |
2012-11-14, 23:37 | Link #597 | |
Tin Can
Join Date: Nov 2009
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He also "babysited" Dunya and Elsnan. All of which he did with Solomon's wisdom. If he didn't cared about understanding and, to some extent, "healing the hearts" of his foes, he would never have did what he did for Dunya and lsnan, especially lsnan who stated Aladdin can just "will him away to save Alibaba", or Dunya, who already lost to them by that time. Thing is that I believe Aladdin does have a certain desired outcome that he himself wants (which is to prevent a Alma Toran re-run). As Magi, he chooses a king that most fits his idea of a person who can achieve that outcome. Then he supports that Candidate. However, in this situation, he is away from his candidate (Alibaba), and in the Kouga scenario (where he is again seperated from Alibaba) he did take a more active role in achieving a desired outcome. I believe he will take an more active role if Alibaba does not become involve in this arc. The thing is that I think I should state my position clearly. 1) I am not fundamentally opposed to hurting Moganett, though I believe it will be better if it also address his world view. I think would make it a more interesting character arc like that of Scar or Kassim. 2) Aladdin does not have to be the one that redeems ol' Dumbledore, even though he probably have the tools for it. Anyone can be that person, even Marga, depending on how things are written 3) I do not think Aladdin can "solve" all of the problems in Magostautt. However, like in Balbadd and Kouga, he probably will be quite vital in planting the seed that acts as a basis for "mortals" to solve their own problems. Last edited by Rainrir; 2012-11-14 at 23:47. Reason: Better flow of points |
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2012-11-14, 23:44 | Link #598 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
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You do realize this, right? That both of these had to be defeated several times before any sense were knocked into them? Hell, with Kassim, it was basically "Oops, looks like I'm dead. Well, I'm gonna confess and regret my sins before I go, sorry guys! Luv ya!" Quote:
Along with 1), is it not the same as what I've been saying? Leaving it up to the humans to figure it out. I don't mind Aladdin advising them, but he shouldn't take charge of it. It comepletely goes against his character through out the entire series, not to mention his role. Merlin should never outshine Arthur.
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2012-11-14, 23:55 | Link #599 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
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It's mostly a logistical problem. How much magoi can we drain while maintaining a decent quality of life for everyone involved? How do we distribute the resulting goods? Quote:
As long as the quality of life is superior to what they could achieve in other countries, the 5th will keep a calm population. It'll be full of people who failed or can't do better in their country or other countries. Because they would just be beggars or subsistence farmers. I'm sure the 5th will have a fine population. The magicians could even set up a small market down there, and give people in the 5th pay for magoi supplied instead of just giving them free food and stuff. If the magicians doesn't intentionally rig the market's prices it could give people a chance to save up if they really wanted. Then they, or their kids, could get a shot at life outside the 5th. Or the magicians could give the 5th a small wage in addition to the free stuff they already get. They could use that to buy luxuries or save up for a shot at success outside. It's an even smaller change from the current system. Last edited by Grey; 2012-11-15 at 00:13. |
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2012-11-14, 23:59 | Link #600 | ||
Tin Can
Join Date: Nov 2009
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Plus, Kassim (and Judal who was with him) wasn't defeated physically at all. Remember, right before the Magoi/Rukh merging Aladdin and Alibaba are still at a serious disadvantage in the fight, the "soul talk' is what direcly led to victory. He died because he gave up after realizing how foolish he was, not because "whelp, I am dying so I should confess my sins". The death followed his realization, not the other way around. Quote:
Magi "leads" a King Candidate into a dungeon, but it also seems that the Djinn "choose" their own Candidate. I don't think Aladdin have much say in how Zagan chose Hakuryuu. There is still considerable mystery on who (Djinn, Magi) actually chooses what (King? King Candidate?). All i can say is that Alibaba is the only King Candidate Aladdin "approves" to be "King", despite him also "leading" Hakuryuu into the Zagan Dungeon. Aladdin took the important footwork for things to even start changing in almost every scenario in the manga thus far. While I am not saying he is "taking charge" like a leader, I think his influence and active intervention is necessary for almost all resolutions to the the scenarios shown in the manga thus far. |
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fantasy, licensed, manga, shounen |
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