[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

In EP2 that's possible, but in EP4, two Beatos weren't necessary, but were shown anyway, and both interacted with Battler.

I guess it's pretty much game over by the time Battler meets Beatrice on the balcony anyway... or is it Shannon who quickly runs off and kills herself? :P

Anyway, suit-Beatrice always seems to be strictly a piece (never gets involved in the meta-world)...

[Sniesk]

I just finished reading the episode and i have one big doubt about it, and i don't know if really is something difficult or it's just me that can't understand it.
First of all, i acknowledge that the whole episode is just saying "Shkannon Theory is true" and i see many people on this forum agrees with it.
So let's say they really are the same person with DID or whatever. How does this help us with the Battler's closed room?
So, Battler ends up closed in the room. Note that the guest room, is more like a "sacrifice" room, meaning that one person must always be inside it. So Battler needs help
Let's assume that Kanon (that is actually Shannon) jumped from the window of the room next over (on a side note, why no blue truth could be used about it?) dashed to Battler's guest room, and saved him entering the room himself. But then...

# Kanon does not exist inside the guest room. ...Naturally this includes the closet, the bedroom, and the bathroom in their entirety.

Than what happened?
We know for certain that Battler couldn't get out from there by himself.
Why Kanon could? Even if he is just a split personality, his (or "her") body entered the room, so there was definetly someone in there. How did he leave? Why of 2 different people, Battler couldn't exit while Kanon could?

[k//eternal]

Beatonee is also a suit-Beato, though, and she's strictly meta. That also would have been an unnecessary detail unless they're supposed to be related.

Originally Posted by Sniesk

# Kanon does not exist inside the guest room. ...Naturally this includes the closet, the bedroom, and the bathroom in their entirety.

By some definition or another of "dead", Kanon is probably dead.

[Renall]

I think it's just an art conceit. We had Suit Beato, Dress Beato, Hair-Down Dress Beato, and now we need a new Beato that hasn't been portrayed yet, so we get Hair-Down Suit Beato.

I'm chalking it up to it being easier to just cut and paste the "Hair-Down Beato Heads" on the Suit Beato Bodies.

[Judoh]

Most answers say that Kanon is dead so he doesn't exist (which we know is true from Kinzo). And it's basically the same with Shkanon. There is really no difference to their reason except that it's a personality that dies instead. So the solution there is really trivial.

But this is the part where I would think there is hope. Yes, Kanon rescued Battler, but he said he was going to stay there in his place in this surprised Battler. However Battler was supposed to solve it by himself anyway. So say Kanon already knew the answer for how he could escape without an extra person. How'd he do it?

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by Sniesk

I just finished reading the episode and i have one big doubt about it, and i don't know if really is something difficult or it's just me that can't understand it.
First of all, i acknowledge that the whole episode is just saying "Shkannon Theory is true" and i see many people on this forum agrees with it.
So let's say they really are the same person with DID or whatever. How does this help us with the Battler's closed room?
So, Battler ends up closed in the room. Note that the guest room, is more like a "sacrifice" room, meaning that one person must always be inside it. So Battler needs help
Let's assume that Kanon (that is actually Shannon) jumped from the window of the room next over (on a side note, why no blue truth could be used about it?) dashed to Battler's guest room, and saved him entering the room himself. But then...

# Kanon does not exist inside the guest room. ...Naturally this includes the closet, the bedroom, and the bathroom in their entirety.

Than what happened?
We know for certain that Battler couldn't get out from there by himself.
Why Kanon could? Even if he is just a split personality, his (or "her") body entered the room, so there was definetly someone in there. How did he leave? Why of 2 different people, Battler couldn't exit while Kanon could?

If we allow Shkannon, the solution is "Kanon entered the room, hid, and became Shannon again". This conforms to all red truth we've had (Kanon entered, Kanon didn't leave, Kanon is no longer anywhere in the room, Kanon is Battler's rescuer, exactly 3 "bodies" entered and left the room), but seems silly.

[zRyuu]

can Shkanon explain the cousin's closed room and the next one?

[Leafsnail]

Yes - the window to the room Shannon was in was never confirmed as sealed. She could've slipped out and become Kanon.

[Sniesk]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

If we allow Shkannon, the solution is "Kanon entered the room, hid, and became Shannon again". This conforms to all red truth we've had (Kanon entered, Kanon didn't leave, Kanon is no longer anywhere in the room, Kanon is Battler's rescuer, exactly 3 "bodies" entered and left the room), but seems silly.

Am i the only one who find that pretty ridiculus? It has absolutely no meaning on the gameboard. I mean, we know the first twilight was just a prank on Erika. So everyone knew that Battler was alive. But then "Shkannon" didn't know what was happening in Battler's guest room, as he was closed in the room next over. Then he switched to Kanon (WHY?) climbed down from the window, dashed to a room when he couldn't possibly know something was happening, and switched place with Battler. Then for some reason he switch again to Shannon and that red truth can be made.
I found all this VERY lame, it seems just something to fool the red truth, and piece-character shouldn't know anything about it.
Also the part when he (she) can change his personality at will also sounds very strange.

Oh and still, why is that Dlanor sealed the blue truths on the windows? Assuming that the answer is that it was used to escape how could she seal it? It really seems like you can't say the right answer, as Ange suggested

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

Yes - the window to the room Shannon was in was never confirmed as sealed. She could've slipped out and become Kanon.

But then Shannon would no longer be in the room where she was stated to be in.

[Judoh]

@Sneisk No you are not the only one who thinks that there are more people than you think that don't like that solution. We only give opposing solutions like Kanon= Kinzo to satisfy the shkanon theorists.

To be fair I just want to leave that closed room as is. It's an ultimate closed room Beatrice created what right do we have to destroy it?

[Jan-Poo]

But how else can we explain it? Erika has been doing inexplicable actions since EP5.

And Battler's initial strategy to solve the logic room was equally ridiculous.
How did he know about the seals? How Kyrie know about the situation? Why in the hell would she swap with Battler? Why Battler set up the trap in the bathroom?

There is simply no logic.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

But how else can we explain it? Erika has been doing inexplicable actions since EP5.

And Battler's initial strategy to solve the logic room was equally ridiculous.
How did he know about the seals? How Kyrie know about the situation? Why in the hell would she swap with Battler? Why Battler set up the trap in the bathroom?

There is simply no logic.

You can't make a piece do things they aren't capable of. Therefore, there must have been a logical reason for all actions taken by characters.

[Sniesk]

Even putting gameboard logic aside, all the pieces seems to be acting in a way to fool the red truth. I could understand this to be done by Erika or Battler, who are also Meta-Characters (and still her action make actually no sense) but why Shkannon would act this way?

Originally Posted by chronotrig

You can't make a piece do things they aren't capable of. Therefore, there must have been a logical reason for all actions taken by characters.

And what would those reasons be?

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by musouka

But then Shannon would no longer be in the room where she was stated to be in.

She was confirmed to be in that room when Erika sealed it. She could've broken out afterwards, like how Gaap said. (and Beatrice's later truth was "The people who were in the neighboring room at the time it was sealed were Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo." There was never the slightest guarentee that the seal was intact - just DIanor saying that no blue truths could be made about this window.

I did try to make a more logical explanation for this earlier:

Spoiler for Vaguely logical:

The first twilight was faked as a prank on Erika, and thus those still in the room are suspicious of what she is doing. They send Shannon out (perhaps they're already in on the Shannon/ Kanon thing, which was only ever a prank on Battler and Erika? Or something? I dunno) to make sure that the others are ok. She goes down... and finds that 5 of the victims of the first twilight have had their heads chopped off!

She runs over to Battler's room, and is horrified to see that Erika, who has apparently murdered 5 people, is in there. Hearing a strange commotion, she runs up to the door, and sees Battler there. Using her newfound confidence as her Kanon personality, she asks him what is wrong, and Battler explains the situation quickly. Shkannon realises that she is far better at hiding than Battler, so agrees to swap places with him. Once she's in the room, she reverts back to Shannon, who she feels more comfortable as while alone.

It's still odd, but Battler does say afterwards that he thinks Beatrice's trick is silly, and not a mystery.

[m0h]

EDIT: nevermind Leafsnail already explained perfectly.

Erika never checked for the existance of a Kanon Disguise too. She SPECIFICALLY LOOKED FOR KANON.

Plus: the seals on the windows cannot be guaranteed to be intact in red because ERIKA COULD NOT CHECK THEM FROM THE OUTSIDE, and the Game ended before she could do it.
You cannot use blue DIRECTLY to assert that the seals are broken because of the Shroedinger Cat theory: unless you check, they can be supposed to be still intact and broken in the same time.

INDIRECTLY, with the use of the Kanon/Shannon trick, you can assert that Kanon went out without having to question the integrity of the seal in the room Shannon was in.
Also indirecty, it asserts the fact that both the seals could have been broken.

[Leafsnail]

Erika didn't actually search anything after leaving the bathroom... she just took the red truth Beatrice gave her, telling her that Kanon wasn't there. And noone else entered the room, riiiiight?

[musouka]

Originally Posted by m0h

That's why Beato could say "Kanon doesn't exist in the closet".

That only works if Kanon dies, regardless of his body status. Otherwise, by the very nature of sharing a body, Kanon would have to be in the closet if Shannon is too.

[Sniesk]

Originally Posted by m0h

Remember a thing:
Erika is looking FOR KANON in the room. Not for someone in particular.

Let's immagine that Shannon got out of the run and swapped place with Battler disguised as Kanon.
Then, "Kanon" enter the closet and take out her disguise. Now Shannon exists in the closet.

Erika looked specifically for Kanon in the closet. That's why Beato could say "Kanon doesn't exist in the closet". The Red Truth is peculiar, and it's true that Kanon is not in the closet, but doesn't specify that NO ONE is in the closet.

I can accept it if you say she took Kanon personality, exited the window, entered the room and then reverted back. But the disguise also? He changed 2 times in like 5 minutes? What is she? A doppleganger?

[Leafsnail]

I wouldn't've said so. If Shkannon is no longer Kanon and is now Shannon, you could quite legitimately say that "Kanon is not here".

And Kanon would still exist there even if he killed himself in the closet.

And I don't think the change of clothes is necessary for a change in personality, if noone sees them...