2007-09-01, 08:06 | Link #421 | ||
勇者
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Tesla Leicht Institute
Age: 34
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2007-09-07, 02:45 | Link #424 |
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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What a fun thread, I see a lot of people that I often see posting around other areas of the forum as well.
I couldn't find it in here - where are you all getting your information that Kira and Lacus are in ZAFT now? The series is 50 episodes (plus the recap episode, called "edit") right? I just finished 50, and there's no indication of that... was it speculation?
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2007-09-07, 02:48 | Link #425 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Australia
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________ Big Dick Tube Last edited by OMG_Zerg_Rush; 2011-03-21 at 15:09. |
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2007-09-15, 18:10 | Link #426 |
Magic Pilot
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Okay, here's a question. I haven't read this entire thread, so maybe there was an answer before the question of Shinn vs. Camille came up, but I really didn't see much of a trace of it, so I figured I'd just ask... Shinn was discarded as a main character, thus causing his character development to (much like the series itself) stagnate. Do we know what plans Fukuda had for Shinn before they decided to scrap him? I mean, we know that, in Gundam SEED, Kira was supposed to die at the end, but his popularity saved him. Have we gotten any such information about what was supposed to happen to Shinn?
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2007-09-15, 19:48 | Link #428 | |||||
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Join Date: May 2006
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Kamille at his worst punched a Titan and threatened to crush another Titan with a Gundam. I am sure all the people who were being oppressed by the Titans would've cheered. Quote:
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Of course all of this is just my personal opinions. Obviously you guys disagree with them but that is fine. I am just contending that even if Shinn had developed just like Kamille he still would've been an unlikable character for me just because my initial impression of him is one of gross aversion. |
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2007-09-15, 20:22 | Link #429 | |
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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The other big issue I had was with Shinn and Stellar. When she's stampeding in the Destroy, Shinn just wants people to stop attacking her. What happened to the idea that war shouldn't happen? The same situation that killed his family is occurring on a larger scale below him (entire city was destroyed), and yet he can't bring himself to attack her. As if it's not bad enough, when Kira (whom 99% of the viewers love, based off of GSeed) steps in to stop the carnage, Shinn suddenly gets vengeful. I think that was it for me with Shinn - he didn't even seem conflicted over much, just a closed-minded character on the wrong side who's getting too much animation time. Wierd way to do a series, indeed.
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2007-09-15, 21:11 | Link #430 | |
Magic Pilot
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Jeez, am I the only person here who really likes Shinn?
You people are saying that you don't like him 'cause he's still upset that his family died two years ago. Let's face it, though: We didn't really see him moping before he started fighting again, or before he came into contact with people from/representing Orb. He's still carrying around his younger sister's cell phone, yeah, but that's not the same as having a pity party for two years. He's got friends, he was out shopping with Youlan, wasn't he? It's not like he was a jerk to everyone else, and it's not like he completely shut himself off from the world. He just bears a grudge against Orb. I'd say it makes enough sense. Grudges can resurface after coming into contact with people or ideals that remind us of our pasts. He doesn't like the earth alliance, of course, because they attacked his country and hate coordinators, so that aspect of him isn't explored as much because, let's face it, almost all the coordinators we see have some problem with the earth alliance. But it makes sense, too, that he'd bear serious resentment to the country that he felt was naive. Ever had someone say to you "but I was just trying to help!" when you were really pissed off? Does the fact that they were TRYING to do something they thought was good help at all? Maybe it does for other people, but I've never particularly felt that way. Now let's say that the person who was "just trying to help" ended up contributing to the death of someone important to you, and two years later someone comes up to you and starts saying the same goddamn stuff you heard before from the helper-person. You might bear a grudge. You might disagree with their ideals. Just a little bit. So yeah, we see Shinn mouth off towards Cagalli and Athrun, not knowing what they've been through, but we're only upset with him 'cause most viewers are biased towards them. Let's say someone we all hate was saying the stuff Cagalli was saying, and Shinn gave them a hard time. Most people would cheer Shinn on. Goddamn, don't ask me why, but when people are so biased towards the old characters, it bothers me... Probably just 'cause that bias in popularity effected the events in Gundam SEED Destiny too much, and made it so much worse than it could have been. Too many people were too infatuated with the old characters to try and see new ones blossoming... Quote:
And about saying "what happened to the idea that war shouldn't happen?" I think that Shinn doesn't disagree with the idea of war, he's not so optimistic about humanity. He believes fighting should be done PRECISELY because of what happened to his family. If Orb had fought sooner, I assume Shinn thinks, the mainland of Orb might have been saved. Perhaps if they'd started moving civilians out before the attack, or perhaps by launching the first strike and gaining an early advantage, they may have been saved. He never advocated that Orb should lay down it's weapons against the Earth Alliance, he never argued that war should not occur, and he never said that pacifism was the answer. It's worth noting that he did exactly what Orb did against the earth alliance in terms of what he did against Destroy. Orb tried to rely on negotiations, on diplomacy, on words, and it didn't work. Shinn tried to use those same words to reason with Stellar. Does this make him a hypocrite? Hell yeah. But aren't we all hypocrites? Aren't all humans? Yeah, we try not to be, but Shinn was raised in Orb, so there's the innate Orbian in him talking when he tried to calm Stellar down. He hates Orb's ideals, but he's still influenced by them, and I think this makes him a deeply human character... He just didn't really have a chance to shine, thanks to the people who loved the old characters too much to give new ones a shot. |
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2007-09-15, 22:04 | Link #431 | |||||
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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But here, you have the old characters completely fighting with the new characters. Even worse, the new characters were completely aligned with the force of "evil" in the series. If Shinn had come around and fought alongside Kira and Athrun, or had they joined the plan, maybe people would have come to accept him more. One could argue that there was no evil - both sides wanted to prevent war, but had their own ways of doing it. That'd be valid, except that Athrun and Kira already have the just side in our minds, and the cinematic portrayals of the opposing side (ZAFT) made them seem evil, no matter how you put it. I also understand where you're coming from with regard to Shinn getting upset at Cagalli, but when Shinn said "you don't know anything" (a few times, if I remember right), you really didn't feel anything? That's what set me off. We'd watched all of those characters struggle throughout the entire first series with the "realities of war" and finally reach a decision about how to deal with it. Then Shinn is there saying how they don't know anything, when he's only participated in a single battle? I wasn't very tolerant of that. Quote:
They also do not play it up that Shinn wants revenge on Freedom for killing his family. Shinn just wants to take out Freedom because Freedom is powerful, and also because Freedom did kill Stellar. The revenge aspect was drawn from that. Quote:
Actually, there's another loop of reasoning for why I get angry about Shinn. Shinn blames Kira for the death of Heine (although not as much as Athrun), and also for the death of Stellar. He also treats Stellar as if she had done nothing wrong. Yet, it was really Stellar that killed Heine. It just seems like two wrongs: letting Stellar get off of blame free, and then placing what should be her blame on Kira (who arguably had the purest intentions, even). Quote:
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I can see that we viewed a lot of these events differently, which I find interesting. From what you're saying, I can understand how Shinn would be a more likable character. The series still does too much to portray him in an almost villainish manner, though. From attacking Kira (and despite lamenting over the first time, doing it again!) to following orders without thought, to disobeying orders without thought (returning Stellar), it just reeks of a seemingly bad character. What really ices the cake is the fact that he killed the Orb general who not only holds the true ideals of Orb (which the series, at least, puts into our minds as the ultimate source of good), but who looked after Shinn in his time of need, and got him out of Orb. Shinn didn't know who he was killing, I know, but the cinematic portrayals put Shinn in a very, very bad light.
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2007-09-15, 23:02 | Link #432 | |||||
Magic Pilot
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So yeah, Shinn is definately put on the bad side in this story. I do, however, think that if people hadn't started hating him for hating on characters we like, he could have had some earnest character development (in the right direction), and the series would've been better... In my opinion. Who knows, he may not've killed the orb general... Was he named Takamikazuchi, or was that his ship? Meh. On a slightly different note, I dunno, I just didn't like Kira in SEED Destiny... Because all his character development was basically in the first 13 episodes, and that was all it took. From there on out, pretty much, he just swoops in and owns everything, while being the usual infallible hero. His lack of any real personal conflict or confusion past just getting into the cockpit drove me nuts. Gundam is great, in my opinion, because of how it blurs the line between good and evil. Kira made that line much, much clearer than it needed to be. Yeah, he was good in GSEED, but he wasn't THAT good. |
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2007-09-16, 02:02 | Link #433 | ||
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2007-09-16, 02:14 | Link #434 |
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Join Date: Jan 2006
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Nah, I think Shinn is cool too. What pisses me off is when people say they don't like him because he always pissed off. 2 years, for what happened to his parents and his sister is nothing. Watching your family die isn't something you get over so quick... it's one of those things that may never go away. So can you really blame him? That cell phone is just like a picture to him. I highly doubt that at least HALF of the people that criticize him are fortunate enough to have never lost anybody really close to them.
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2007-09-16, 09:05 | Link #435 |
Magic Pilot
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I have never watched Star Trek, so I don't know all that much about your analogy, Kiramuro, but keeping a token of remembrance sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Plus, he's a soldier... I may be wrong, but don't some soldiers keep important mementos close to them?
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2007-09-16, 16:33 | Link #436 | |
Love Yourself
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2007-09-16, 17:17 | Link #437 |
Magic Pilot
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Yeah, I think that's the problem with SEED Destiny. He rubbed people the wrong way initially, and people never got over that, so they slowly stopped portraying him as a good guy until around episode 33, I'd say . And so much of the audience wanted to see the old characters make triumphant returns and still have big parts, when really, they didn't need to have that happen. Say, does anyone know at what point, as in, what episode, Fukuda started diverging from the original plan for SEED Destiny? 'Cause it definately happened early on.
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2007-09-16, 17:47 | Link #438 | |
Retweet Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: ニュー・オーリンズ、LA
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2007-09-16, 18:25 | Link #439 | |
Ore wa Kyasshan!
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Age: 36
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Ya know, someone said that Shinn is a human character. Kira sucked in GSD because he turned into a "god". Shinn turned into nothing but a villain w/ no reason at all. If Shinn was given good character development.... |
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2007-09-16, 18:27 | Link #440 | |
Gundam Boobs and Boom FTW
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Goddess: Mother died of illness when she was still young, father assassinated. Yes, the Goddess's mother died of illness by this logic: if she was alive, we'd see the Goddess's mother with her. She isn't. And by anime/RPG cliches, all of the beautiful women die young, like when their children are still kids. God: His best friend got Tolle'd. Red knight: His best friend got Niccol'd. Mother killed senselessly, father went lunatic and died in the process before his eyes. Better-off-as-a-soldier-tomboy: Her father blew himself to smithereens. An entire fleet of hers was incinerated before her eyes. Murrue: Lost her bondage mistress, lost Mwu for a year. Andy: Lost Aisha, one eye, one arm, and some of the functionality of one of his legs. So by comparison, Shinn had absolutely no right whatsoever to keep bitching. But I guess you're doomed to failure when you're a fusion of Anakin Skywalker and Saucegay. Too much impatience, stupidity, and emo in one package that nobody short of the Goddess could undo. And no amount of strength can measure up to a pilot piloting a gundam imbued with Goddess Dust.
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