(CR) White Album (All Episodes, 1-26)

[Kaoru Chujo]

I just don't know whether to side with Sorrow-K in this discussion or not. I have much of the same feeling that something is not right here, that we are not getting enough character in the characters, and yet I find myself caring about them anyway, and quite emotionally involved.

This could easily become a "slow-motion train-wreck," and yet that is also a good description of classical tragedy, so perhaps that would not be so terrible.

I do like the patient accumulation of detail. But I agree with Sorrow that it's hard to see the function of much of it, so far. But I don't find it predictable yet. The characters do keep surprising me. Yuki is more forward than one expects. Touya comes through in the clutch, after seeming tempted. I like the fact that they show his fleeting thoughts of other girls. That's normal. It doesn't necessarily mean he's going to cheat on her. That depends on what he decides to actually do.

I am enjoying this show, but I just watched the first couple of episodes of Nana again: the personalities, the events, everything building up together and giving us deeper and deeper characters. What a great show that was. And in ep2, you are still nowhere near the meat of the story.

[SuperKnuckles]

The thing with characters being 'flat' to me is a bit laughable because of how ironic it is. It's not that they're flat. It's that they are WAY too colorful.

An acting troupe that functions like a Tobacco-Lovers-Club, and is filled to the brim with boys (Seriously? and ACTING club with only guys? How rare is that?), just about every other stranger being some major bully, the girls having so much emotions pent up that they end up making a lot of excruciatingly wrong decisions about their loved ones due to their paranoia..

I mean, they're just too colorful in that soap style. Nothing wrong about it, but I guess it can come across as sort of cliché because of that massive amount of angst.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

You're going a bit overboard with your own criticism here. Everyone is welcome to express their own opinions, and Sorrow-K's is both quite well informed and well articulated. It's not the kind of opinion that's based on unrealistic expectations or anything like that.

Sorry, I disagree. I think that apr is right on the money. The thing is that criticism about what a show is NOT gets tiring after a while. It's the equivalent of someone sitting down in a steakhouse complaining that he'd really prefer pizza instead. Sure, that's fine once. That's also fine twice. It's getting a bit tedious when it's voiced three times, but when the same thing is repeated time and time again, I consider it annoying. And if you consider it fine to voice displeasure about a show, it should be just as acceptable to voice displeasure about criticism aswell.

This is - in my opinion - the prime crime you can do when discussing a show: Not to accept it the way the makers present it, but rather demand that things should be done differently. Example: Nagging that it's "not rewarding" to watch a car accident in slow motion. If this is the case and you find yourself sitting in the wrong restaurant for your taste, please leave and go where you can get the food of your preference instead. Don't repetitively complain to the other customers in the restaurant that your steak ain't pasta, at least not more than 2-3 times. That should be a matter of simple courtesy. And if you can't live without that, at least don't complain about the irritated glares of the other customers in return.

A more substantial reply to some of the points raised by Sorrow-K later when I've got a bit more time.

[-Sho-]

Wow , it turn like a such debate -_-' ...... ( You can see what an anime can do ...... )

Well , Let see how Touya will act in the next ep .

[Sinestra]

I share some of the same misgivings as Sorrow-K but this is very hard. Like Kaoru Chujo the chance of this becoming a slow train wreck is very apparent. White Album does not even present me with a lot of mystery since most of the events up to episode 5 anticipated with just a little bit of clarity. I don't want to call the characters bland because thats not really how i feel but the only 2 characters spark any emotion from me are Rina and Yayoi and Yayoi isn't even considered a main character yet her the mystery behind her i find much more interesting than the 2 main characters which iv yet to become attached too.

Yet White Album continues to intrigue me and has managed to tap certain parts of my brain that keep me coming back. I do enjoy the build up and how the history of certain characters effects the story in the present its like revolving door but not one thats stop in time it continues forward and branches a new set of events that cascades and yet again forms more waves.

The next couple of episode is whats going to make or break the series for those who are hanging on but a thread. In the end my curiosity will keep me in the game I hate starting something and not finishing it, it will bug me for months. My biggest problem happens to be Touya and Yuki if i could find a way to relate or even sympathize with them it may change my thinking on certain aspects of the story but right now both their actions bare no weight on me i just dont care whats happens to them although i can discuss the motions they are taking towards a melt down.

Kaoru Chujo very nice comparison with NANA a story that im still following in manga form and an anime that i feel was truly extraordinary in terms of character development and events over the course of years yet still managed to suck you in so deep with its characters you could not help but to care about them, cry about them, be mad at them scream at them. If only White Album could capture me the way NANA did. I still have hope that White Album will get better for me personally.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

@Mentar: But that basically comes back to what I've been saying all along. How much of what you've speculated from the details either isn't going to be explicitly stated down the road when it becomes pertinent to the plot or isn't going to be eventually irrelevant? It's not like these details are keys to a mystery, in most cases, they're indicators of the states of the various relationships.

Irrelevant? Sure, if you prefer your anime reduced to fully explicit storytelling, then I guess you can just look who is kissing who and draw your own conclusions purely based on that. You can also go to an art exhibition with black-and-white shades on - you'll still be able to determine what's on a painting. But it's the _details_ which _I_ draw pleasure from. For example, I really liked the "Sorry - Sorry - SORRY" detail I listed. Would the story work without this? Absolutely. Would it be better? In _my_ opinion, absolutely not.

I just think that the effort that this show is asking from the audience eventually needs to be rewarded, and I don't consider watching a car crash in slow motion to be a rewarding experience.

And this is the very core of our disagreement, I think. You don't have real appetite on what the show is offering. I think you do realize that this is purely 100% your own personal opinion (then that's perfectly fine), but not something you can criticize a show for. Because people like me most certainly do like the emotional involvement of a car crash in slow motion.

I place a huge emphasis on characters in drama, drama absolutely hinges on characters, IMO. What did we learn about the two main characters in this episode, based on what you've written? Touya is a yes man (not obvious, possibly important), he's tempted by a woman despite being in a relationship (obvious, although the extent to which he's been tempted isn't), and he's bewildered by the choice he has to make between Yuki and Misaki (fairly obvious, a dilemma he has to solve in the next ep). Yuki is affected by the fact that she couldn't stay awake long enough to please her man (fairly obvious, may or may not be important, I'm guessing more likely not). None of this really makes them all too much more interesting or dynamic than they were prior to this episode.

Oh, we learned alot more than that. The focus of this episode is elsewhere - introduction of Yayoi, backstory of the Ogatas, background of Misaki. We learn that Touya is willing to go along with temptations (fantasy, dating Yayoi) to a degree, but that he's shying away before things get too serious - yet (I suspect that Rina will be the one to push through this boundary). We learn that Touya is willing to sympathize with his friends and help them, most likely to the degree of hurting his own immediate interests (assuming he ditches the Yuki night for Misaki). We learn that Touya has a tendency of bragging-teasing which occasionally hurts or pisses off his friends, and that he's unable to recognize this (certainly leading to problems in the future). Really important is the Yuki development - that for the first time she is unable to do as she pleases, that she's feeling explicitly guilty for her sleeping through their night, and that she has difficulties talking to Touya too (see her hesitation before the phone). This is a clear reversal from her happy-go-lucky attitude of the past. And we learn that she's obviously trusting enough to fill in Yayoi in her romantic issues (who doesn't deserve this trust, as we know).

All this isn't really relevant in your book?!

It makes for a stark contrast with something like, to pick a random example out of thin air, Marimite, which used its most recent episode to say a lot of very interesting things about three of its characters and their respective relationships, and it did this in what was essentially a filler episode.

I love Marimite to pieces, but sorry - we need to agree to disagree here. The level of detail and development in WA is _much_ higher (explanation see below). Heck, in WA we have a very detailed setting, we have around 8 characters introduced already, and we already started with backstory bits, after 5 episodes. In Marimite, we have introductions of Yumi/Sachiko and Yoshino/Rei, after 5 episodes. That's much slower.

My question is, is White Album's approach to storytelling and character analysis superfluous and is there any real benefit to the storytelling or emotional delivery by being this opaque? It almost seems to be a way to force the audience to engage with the story, rather than the story being engaging in its own right, which almost leads me to think it's a gimmick.

The main advantage of this style is that by implicit storytelling you can put much more details into a much shorter amount of video. If you used normal methods of traditional storytelling (for example using dialogue between characters to explicitly spell out things), you wouldn't be remotely as far contentwise after 5 episodes, and it would turn the show into something exceptionally wordy. The downside is that if the viewer is unwilling or unable to decipher the details, he'll end up confused and will more susceptible to disconnect. So, I guess you can argue that it's a bug or a feature. For me, it's a feature.

It's still the same inane soap opera romance about a bunch of unlikable characters making foolish decisions for the sake of contrived melodrama whether you dress it up with a subdued delivery and overly respectful storytelling approach or not.

Inane, foolish, contrived... you failed to justify "inane", you failed to justify "foolish", you failed to justify "contrived". All you did was complain that it wasn't to your _personal_ liking, and frankly, why should we care about that? Please offer valid criticism of what the show does, and objectively does wrong. Or refraim from unsupported blanket bashing of the source.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Sorry, I disagree. I think that apr is right on the money. The thing is that criticism about what a show is NOT gets tiring after a while. It's the equivalent of someone sitting down in a steakhouse complaining that he'd really prefer pizza instead. Sure, that's fine once. That's also fine twice. It's getting a bit tedious when it's voiced three times, but when the same thing is repeated time and time again, I consider it annoying.

I'm not going to pretend to be a psychologist and go into the why of repeatedly criticizing a show or watching a show that one doesn't like, but I do think that any honest reactions should be allowed. This is especially true of well reasoned arguments. Ideally, one should always add something new to a particular argument, but that's not always possible. You might feel annoyed by seeing a particular argument repeated over and over again, but there's nothing that says you have to like anybody's opinion. I don't see any reason to view criticism and praise differently, so I think that this applies equally to praise that one finds annoying.

I'd agree with you more about regarding poorly articulated/non-argumented criticism, but this only reduces the validity of said criticism, and it's not substantially different from non-argumented praise like "This show is awesome!" or "These characters are wonderful!" (I do think that non-argumented comments like this are fine from time to time)

Originally Posted by Mentar

And if you consider it fine to voice displeasure about a show, it should be just as acceptable to voice displeasure about criticism aswell.

It depends on how this displeasure is expressed. If it's in the form of "you shouldn't be complaining about the show at all", then that adds nothing of value to the thread. A "you shouldn't be complaining in this manner" backed up by good reasons why is much better, but they should be mostly avoided. The most relevant kind would be to correct factual errors in the criticism like "there's no reason to complain about the characters not having cell phones because they were almost non-existent in the mid-'80s".

The way I see it is that displeasure about a show is something that refers directly to the show itself, and this kind of discussion is the reason for these threads to exist. The further you go away from that, the more off-topic the discussion becomes, and the less acceptable it becomes.

Originally Posted by Mentar

This is - in my opinion - the prime crime you can do when discussing a show: Not to accept it the way the makers present it, but rather demand that things should be done differently. Example: Nagging that it's "not rewarding" to watch a car accident in slow motion. If this is the case and you find yourself sitting in the wrong restaurant for your taste, please leave and go where you can get the food of your preference instead. Don't repetitively complain to the other customers in the restaurant that your steak ain't pasta, at least not more than 2-3 times.

I think that you're overstating your case a bit. Sorrow-K's criticism is more to the extent of complaining that the steak is microwaved rather than barbecued . In general I'm more apt to agree if the suggested changes are designed to change the fundamental nature of the show. But when they are suggestions for changing the nature of the presentation, while keeping it fundamentally the same, then that can indicate that the critic has given some real thought into what he found fault with.
Due to the nature of TV shows, a similar line of criticism and praise can come up time and time again unless changes are made. This is just something that goes with the territory, and it really isn't the quite the same complaint/praise everytime. All of that should be automatically appended with "for this episode", and are thereby unique to that episode.

If we step away from anime a bit, a criticism for the Dead Space game can be "I would have cared more about Isaac if the game designers had given him a voice". It's pretty much precisely the kind of complaint that you're describing, but it's also valid, fairly thought out and it adds to the discussion about the game. Anyways, a healthy debate about a show is good all-around - it's certainly more stimulating that just one-sided praise.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

My question is, is White Album's approach to storytelling and character analysis superfluous and is there any real benefit to the storytelling or emotional delivery by being this opaque? It almost seems to be a way to force the audience to engage with the story, rather than the story being engaging in its own right, which almost leads me to think it's a gimmick. The key question is whether the story engaging in its own right, and while the series is failing to say anything of interest about its characters or making them more dynamic or having them face dilemmas that the audience can sympathize with, I'd say the answer is "no".

Personally I don't think that being "obvious" is such a big flaw for this series and so would not really question if the fact that it is making the audience engage with the story a problem in itself. I think I know what you mean since it is as if the story for this series is actually making the viewers think about the situations deeper than what actually is being presented but I find this enjoyable; making theories up out of thin air as it were.

For the moment the characters are find as they are but how well this series will do in the future will depend on how well the characters are going to be developed. They are just about to hit the upper limit of their current given personalities so your fears of a slow and painful trainwreck might come to pass. Though I do hope that you don't favor that happening

[Sorrow-K]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Irrelevant? Sure, if you prefer your anime reduced to fully explicit storytelling, then I guess you can just look who is kissing who and draw your own conclusions purely based on that. You can also go to an art exhibition with black-and-white shades on - you'll still be able to determine what's on a painting. But it's the _details_ which _I_ draw pleasure from. For example, I really liked the "Sorry - Sorry - SORRY" detail I listed. Would the story work without this? Absolutely. Would it be better? In _my_ opinion, absolutely not.

But I don't prefer anime to be completely explicit in its storytelling, because if it spells everything out then it becomes completely ineffectual in drawing the audience in. White Album takes things to the other extreme, though, it forces you to look for details and subtleties and is deliberately ambiguous and opaque for that means, and I really don't like the feeling, as an viewer, that I'm being forced to do something by an anime. I should be looking for hidden meaning and figuring out gestures and symbolisms not because the anime requires me to do it to get any enjoyment out of it, but because I'm naturally engaged by the story and the characters that making the extra effort to really understand the meaning behind the nitty gritty details feels rewarding. In this, it feels like a chore because I have very little interest in these characters. Especially the two leads.

Originally Posted by Mentar

And this is the very core of our disagreement, I think. You don't have real appetite on what the show is offering. I think you do realize that this is purely 100% your own personal opinion (then that's perfectly fine), but not something you can criticize a show for. Because people like me most certainly do like the emotional involvement of a car crash in slow motion.

But, if you want to discuss this from an objective point of view, this brand of drama is inferior. Ignore the approach to storytelling for a moment, based on what we've seen so far, the direction the drama will go in is very likely going to be high on angst and melodrama with lots of relationships breaking down. There's no controversy in this statement, most people agree that this is most likely where White Album is going. So what makes this inferior writing? Essentially, it's "easy" writing. The drama is inevitable because the relationships are weak and, to a certain extent, meaningless. It requires characters to show their worst traits for it to work, but it doesn't necessarily require them to redeem themselves or learn from their lessons afterwards. It doesn't require the characters to be multifaceted in any way, it doesn't require any philosophical thematics or motifs or anything else that helps make a story feel elegant or insightful. It might hit exactly where it's aiming, but I don't see how it's not objective to say that it's not aiming very high. I put the stories that are harder to write by making an unlikable character seem multifaceted and sympathetic or being profound and insightful with its use of themes on a pedestal. This, if it's going where we think it's going, is cheap drama, because it doesn't make use of an even-hand. Anyone can write a script where a bunch of people act like jerks and suffer the consequences. It's much harder to write a script which is rich on the things I mentioned above and is emotionally evocative. But these are by far the most rewarding stories to watch.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Oh, we learned alot more than that. The focus of this episode is elsewhere - introduction of Yayoi, backstory of the Ogatas, background of Misaki. We learn that Touya is willing to go along with temptations (fantasy, dating Yayoi) to a degree, but that he's shying away before things get too serious - yet (I suspect that Rina will be the one to push through this boundary). We learn that Touya is willing to sympathize with his friends and help them, most likely to the degree of hurting his own immediate interests (assuming he ditches the Yuki night for Misaki). We learn that Touya has a tendency of bragging-teasing which occasionally hurts or pisses off his friends, and that he's unable to recognize this (certainly leading to problems in the future). Really important is the Yuki development - that for the first time she is unable to do as she pleases, that she's feeling explicitly guilty for her sleeping through their night, and that she has difficulties talking to Touya too (see her hesitation before the phone). This is a clear reversal from her happy-go-lucky attitude of the past. And we learn that she's obviously trusting enough to fill in Yayoi in her romantic issues (who doesn't deserve this trust, as we know).

All this isn't really relevant in your book?!

Well, I've already said my piece about Yayoi (she is probably the most interesting character so far, but that's not saying much), the info about the Ogatas are more plot-relevant than character-relevant, and we're still right at the beginning of Misaki's story, so we don't know all to much about her other than her respective relationships with Touya and Akira and the fact that she's bullied by the theater club. None of the revelations you listed about Touya are major, they're little things which fill in his character. The little things add colour, but he needs something major to separate him from the archetype. One could almost compare it to something like Toradora!, which has put a lot of emphasis on separating its characters from their initial archetype. A few episodes ago, Ryuuji made some really poor decisions, which, it eventually turned out, hearkened back a somewhat unique aspect of his character that was introduced in passing in the first episode (I'm being vague to avoid spoilers). It took almost half the series for that particular attribute of Ryuuji's to play a role in the story, but it eventually did. Possibly, the same thing could happen with Touya in this anime, but when the little traits we're finding out about Touya which colours his character include things like that he's tempted by sexy women, he helps his friends (sometimes grudgingly) and he can sometimes be socially uncomfortable to be around, well, I don't really see how this separates him from any particular archetype and I become a little skeptical that these things are going to be utilized by the story down the line to make him seem more unique.

As for Yuki, when you say that this was the "first time she is unable to do as she pleases," yes, that is significant, but my question is, are you sure that's true? Firstly, in what respect do you mean? Is this in regards to her career or her relationship or life in general? We don't really know the answer for the latter two, because there's still a lot of question marks about the past that Touya and Yuki have shared. But certainly, in the case of career, this doesn't seem to be the case, in my eyes. She's been a back-up singer for a very long time, she was exceptionally grateful for the opportunity to record a single to the point that she cried (which sort of indicates to me that she's had a very tough road through the industry) and we saw in the first episode that she's been a victim of workplace bullying. But if we look at her character (which I'm not sure I'd call "happy-go-lucky"), I don't see a clear indication that she has gotten things as she has pleased. In my experience, most girls who are used to getting what they want tend to be aggressive when they want something, because there's an expectation there that if they tell someone they want something, they'll eventually get it. Yuki seems to me to be very passive, which almost suggests to me that there's a lack of confidence there, that she's been pushed back into her shell. As far as the other stuff is concerned, well, those are more plot details than anything else. Yuki will eventually make amends with Touya and they'll be back where they were before this episode started... on rocky roads.

Originally Posted by Mentar

The main advantage of this style is that by implicit storytelling you can put much more details into a much shorter amount of video. If you used normal methods of traditional storytelling (for example using dialogue between characters to explicitly spell out things), you wouldn't be remotely as far contentwise after 5 episodes, and it would turn the show into something exceptionally wordy. The downside is that if the viewer is unwilling or unable to decipher the details, he'll end up confused and will more susceptible to disconnect. So, I guess you can argue that it's a bug or a feature. For me, it's a feature.

You seem to think that I have something against implicit storytelling, which is anything but the case... I only have something against implicit storytelling in this case, where I feel it isn't necessary or even enhances this show's ability to tell its story. I just wrote an article where I railed against Tytania for using a "tell" rather than "show" approach to storytelling because it made certain plot points much harder to accept. But, again, my question is what's the point of obscuring all these details. If the point is that they can cram more in, doesn't this essentially make this rushed? I mean, usually when a story uses a subdued approach to storytelling, it's done to give the audience breathing space between the important revelations or emotional moments.

The "show, not tell" approach to storytelling is always going to be the most efficient one, and the best one to bringing down the barriers of disbelief. That doesn't make it innately superior, though, and in this case, I really think this anime isn't using it well, by being way too obscure and wasting its energy on petty points when we've still yet to really rip into the meat and bones of these characters. How much longer are we going to wait to find out important things about them, and not just that Touya gets tempted by women and Yuki is so ambiguous that we're not sure whether she's passive or happy-go-lucky (which are, to a reasonable enough extent, exclusive).

I'm not convinced that this show couldn't have eased back on its approach to storytelling and been a bit more explicit with some of these details and still wouldn't have been able to get to this point after five episodes. It's not rushed, at this point (I think)... in fact, I'll even go so far as to say that it's not anywhere near its optimal efficiency, even with the "show, don't tell" storytelling approach. I, too, like my stories to have lots of stuff in them to sink my teeth into. If you compare this to something like There Will Be Blood (which is, in my eyes, the second most brilliant film I've seen in the last three years), which used a very subdued style and was almost exclusively "show, don't tell" in its approach, I was just amazed at how much they managed to cram into two and a half hours, as far as thematics, character development and analysis, philosophy, metaphors and story motifs were concerned. This film was rich, right up there as one of the richest cinema experiences I've had in my life, but it never once felt rushed because it was so deft with its storytelling. The comparison with White Album is completely unfair, but my point is that this is what's capable with White Album's (general) approach to storytelling, when it's done right. When the approach is utilized to its full potential, it can give you constantly profound insights into a character, which White Album simply hasn't done to this stage. To give an anime example, have a look at something like Kure-nai, and the character example of a side character, Tamaki. They took fifteen minutes to do what White Album is essentially going to take the majority of its run to do, and still managed to say a lot of really profound things about the character, as well as using her to reflect a lot of the show's themes about traditionalism and feminism and the desire to be loved. Why is White Album failing to do what a lot of other (superior) stories have managed to do with the same approach to storytelling, and have made it look easy? Is it because there's no interest in character development and analysis and an exploration of themes, or is it just beyond the ability of the writers? If it's the latter, then White Album is inferior by execution, if it's the former, then White Ablum is inferior by intention.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Inane, foolish, contrived... you failed to justify "inane", you failed to justify "foolish", you failed to justify "contrived". All you did was complain that it wasn't to your _personal_ liking, and frankly, why should we care about that? Please offer valid criticism of what the show does, and objectively does wrong. Or refraim from unsupported blanket bashing of the source.

I wasn't referring to White Album in its current form, I was referring to the lesser examples in the genre and what I fear White Album could become at its worst. My point is, what makes White Album different from other soap opera anime, other than its approach to storytelling, which, at this stage, hasn't been utilized well.

[DragoZERO]

Pardon me if this isn't following the rules but that is the biggest post (of original content of course) I have ever seen in my life, Sorrow-K.

[aohige]

Yeah, all that text makes my head hurt.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm watching it for the lulz, not zen.
Coincidentaly, that's the reason I watch anything other than porn, which has a diffrent purpose.
So, uh, yeah, how about 'em watermelons on Yayoi.

Jokes aside, I'm enjoying this series a lot more than I expected for an anime based on a leaf game.

[Schneizel]

aohige, you aren't alone. I'm also watching WA because I think it's hilarious.

[Mentar]

I smell a waste of time, so I'll try to be brief.

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

But, if you want to discuss this from an objective point of view, this brand of drama is inferior.

Er, no. Certainly not, since I don't see how there could be an "objective point of view". What would that be? Overall, the most memorable entries in the romance drama roster as in "most watched" or "most discussed" or "most highly rated" tend to use exactly this brand of drama. Add "In my opinion and for my taste", and fine. But you're not the arbiter of good and bad drama.

Ignore the approach to storytelling for a moment, based on what we've seen so far, the direction the drama will go in is very likely going to be high on angst and melodrama with lots of relationships breaking down. There's no controversy in this statement, most people agree that this is most likely where White Album is going.

This is an exceptionally trivial and self-evident statement, about as "it's very likely that the heroes will fight with mechs against their enemies, and there will be a big battle in the end" for a Gundam show. Predicting action in an action show isn't exactly rocket science, you know. And that doesn't make the show any worse.

Besides, even the implicit criticism of predictability is off. What were the most important developments lately? Yuki asking Touya to sleep with each other. Yayoi trying to bribe Touya with sex and cash. At least _I_ was totally surprised by the first, and I would have been by the second aswell, if someone hadn't spoiled this part in this thread before.

So what makes this inferior writing? Essentially, it's "easy" writing. The drama is inevitable because the relationships are weak and, to a certain extent, meaningless.

Scuse me, but you wouldn't work in advertising, would you? It's an art to add entirely meaningless attributes (like "easy" to writing) to highly questionable statements as if they were obvious. No explanation why "the relationships" (which? all of them?) depicted might be "weak" (Of course, they are not. WA depicts a perfectly normal web of relationships between childhood/school friends). And what are "meaningless" relationships? I've got to admit that I consider this continuous flow of unsubstantiated (and in my opinion, mostly questionable) negatively tainted statements irritating, but I guess I'll just have to live with them.

It requires characters to show their worst traits for it to work, but it doesn't necessarily require them to redeem themselves or learn from their lessons afterwards.

So far, not a single character has been showing his/her "worst" traits, and it's working perfectly fine. Here you're not only leaving the ground of "personal opinion", you enter the realm of "pure speculation".

It doesn't require the characters to be multifaceted in any way, it doesn't require any philosophical thematics or motifs or anything else that helps make a story feel elegant or insightful.

This is also where I just have to disagree. The characters ARE depicted in a very detailed way due to the implicit storytelling, you just have to pick up the clues. And it's way too early to tell whether or not there are any deeper thematics or motifs which are going to emerge. So why don't you leave your crystal ball at home and simply discuss what the show DOES instead of criticizing what you believe it might or might not do in the future? *scratch head*

It might hit exactly where it's aiming, but I don't see how it's not objective to say that it's not aiming very high. I put the stories that are harder to write by making an unlikable character seem multifaceted and sympathetic or being profound and insightful with its use of themes on a pedestal.

4Tran, this much for what we talked out before. "I hate it that it doesn't do the things I want it to".

This, if it's going where we think it's going, is cheap drama, because it doesn't make use of an even-hand.

Pluralis majestatis? Let's make that an "I", please.

The way I see it, the show has been very carefully establishing and displaying the relationships between almost all characters. It has also begun to point out what the peculiarities are, and I see fault lines emerging. The absolutely non-cheap beauty I see in it is that we can begin to foresee which chain reactions are going to lead to which results. Furthermore, what I like about the show so much is that it does _not_ go for cheap dramatic thrills. The characters do _not_ show their worst traits so far, and it's progressing and developing nicely on its own. It's a very unexcited and low-key presentation which still not only manages to capture my interest, it also (and I rate this very highly) does NOT coerce me to take anyone's side so far. It does NOT use storytelling tricks to point out who to root for and who to dislike.

Sorry man, you've been building a straw man of your own negative expectations. Don't you even realize that?

Anyone can write a script where a bunch of people act like jerks and suffer the consequences.

But they ARE no jerks. At the moment, in my opinion not even Touya deserves this description. He's got his strengths and weaknesses, but NONE of the characters has "shown his worst side", as you put it. It's in your head.

[alot of stuff deleted]

Why is White Album failing to do what a lot of other (superior) stories have managed to do with the same approach to storytelling, and have made it look easy? Is it because there's no interest in character development and analysis and an exploration of themes, or is it just beyond the ability of the writers? If it's the latter, then White Album is inferior by execution, if it's the former, then White Ablum is inferior by intention.

WA is failing in one aspect, and that is meeting your preconceived notions of what YOU believe to be good or bad in drama. You are tarring and feathering it for what you EXPECT it to happen, by your own admission. I'm wasting my time.

I wasn't referring to White Album in its current form, I was referring to the lesser examples in the genre [...]

No, you were not. The reference was directly to White Album. Please own up to what you write, or this is becoming a farce. Well, I guess it's past this point already.

So I guess I'll withdraw from this meta-discussion with one general observation, particularly to 4Tran and also as continuation of a small private discussion with Musouka from before: I am bothered when people on boards like these act like official arbiters of the TRUTH [tm] when it comes to anime, whose sigils of approval have to be begged for. Maybe it's just me and my idea of manners, but the idea of having consumers who usually do NOTHING to contribute to an animation project's success shaking their wise heads and poo-poo'ing their efforts strikes me as exceptionally rude, particularly when they try to pass their personal opinions as "objective" facts. And if - to top it off - their personal opinions are highly questionable and not properly sourced in the first place, my irritation grows even bigger.

This is not restricted to shows I take personal interest in. It annoys me just likewise in threads of shows I don't even like. It's a sign of arrogant ungratefulness and respectlessness towards the efforts of the anime makers which I find hard to swallow. If possible, I'd appreciate if we could restrict our discussions on what a show actually DOES, and how it does it, instead of what people would rather like it to do instead. I'd prefer to exchange thoughts on what is actually SHOWN, not what people expect to see in the future. And most definitely I'd prefer withhold judgment about success or failure of a show until it actually had the opportunity to actually succeed or fail. That would really improve my idea of intellectual hygiene.

Too much to ask for?

[SageGaiGar]

It's also about five or so episodes in, kind of early to pigeon hole the anime. I'm watching this more for the dark comedy aspect of seeing how things turn out. I'm not going to say something *will* happen. That's just me deciding how it's going to turn out and then viewing everything from that point of reference.

Is Touya going to cheat on Yuki. Well he certainly has 'options', though he hasn't quite initiated anything serious. Oh it can be argued that he's on that course but has he? Right now, no.

Taking anything from the reference material of the game, Yayoi's scenes for example, doesn't entirely belong here. I don't mind spoilers. Others do. The journey of a series is just as fun to watch, even knowing the conclusion.

[BetoJR]

I read a commentary on a blog one of these days (sorry, I forgot which one) that basically said "here's how we can have a NICE BOAT". The reference to School Days was just too funny, IMHO.

[SageGaiGar]

So many possible routes to 'Nice Boat' XD. Not like it's going to happen but a bloodless 'boat' would still be quite fun to watch happen.

[Sorrow-K]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Er, no. Certainly not, since I don't see how there could be an "objective point of view". What would that be? Overall, the most memorable entries in the romance drama roster as in "most watched" or "most discussed" or "most highly rated" tend to use exactly this brand of drama. Add "In my opinion and for my taste", and fine. But you're not the arbiter of good and bad drama.

Well, you were the one who wanted to talk about objectivity. I brought up a few reasonable-enough yardsticks for discussing drama, and now you don't want to recognize objectivity because it may have an opinion attached to it? Critics, literary experts and academics tend to agree that the soap opera brand of drama is inferior. I made an attempt to explain some of the reasons why, but I guess I failed.

But you can't discuss objectivity and then bring up yardsticks like "most watched", "most discussed" and "most highly rated" because these are measures of popularity, not quality. There's simply no correlation between popularity and quality; in fact, in an entertainment industry which is so influenced by money like anime is, there's almost a weak inverse correlation between popularity and quality, which is why a lot of critically acclaimed films don't do well at the box office, and why box office top ten lists are dominated by films like Bride Wars and Underworld 3, to use Hollywood as the example. This is just the nature of the beast, titles like The Dark Knight which have smashed the box office and achieved almost universal critical acclaim, are becoming more and more rare. Titles that are popular generally require interest from casual movie goers (and, in the case of anime, casual anime fans), which is why they're very carefully marketed and often primarily appeal to the LCD.

White Album is a lot more sophisticated than an LCD work, it almost goes without saying, but the titles that conform to the measures of popularity that you brought up often are. The romance/drama genre is a tough one to talk about in this way, since there's not as significant a "casual fan" effect as there is in other genres. (For simplicity, I'll define "casual fan" as someone who doesn't watch a wide range of titles from different genres, which makes the standard Narutard a "casual fan", even though this is incorrect, since some Narutards can be very hardcore towards their fandom.) But even in this genre, "most discussed" isn't a good measure of objective quality. Have you ever noticed that a lot of the discussion about the more watched romance titles are driven more by speculation than by analysis and criticism? And there's usually only a fine line between "speculation" and "shipping". That's not a hard thing for anime-makers to manipulate. A title like Shuffle! basically lived and breathed on dividing its fandom into fierce shipping factions (something that the producers and marketers were well aware of, hence the R1 release tagline "which girl would you choose?".) Surely you can agree that Shuffle! wasn't a quality anime story. True Tears did this as well, maybe not to the same logical conclusions that Shuffle! took it, but I remember Kaoru Chujo suspecting that the director's decision in making the "choice" element of the show so integral was deliberately done to appeal to the usual mob (ie, 2ch).

If you want to talk about "objectivity" then we have to agree on the yardsticks for judging the appropriate form of drama, or else it's a pointless discussion. I realize that using yardsticks to criticize anime is an overly simplistic way to look at things, firstly because of the old credence that an anime is more than the sum of its parts, and secondly because the best films and animations are the ones that effectively subvert the established yardsticks (ever noticed how it's no longer acceptable in anime circles to criticize a romance for going the incest end... Koi Kaze is responsible for that). If my chosen yardsticks for judging this anime are so inappropriate in this case (and I don't think they are, since they're the constantly evolving yardsticks I've been using for judging romance/drama for years, and White Album isn't so special to prove that these yardsticks are deposed), then what is the appropriate measures for a title like this? How much tolerance for the genre conventions do I have to afford to White Album before I'm judging it "fairly" and "objectively"?

Originally Posted by Mentar

This is an exceptionally trivial and self-evident statement, about as "it's very likely that the heroes will fight with mechs against their enemies, and there will be a big battle in the end" for a Gundam show. Predicting action in an action show isn't exactly rocket science, you know. And that doesn't make the show any worse.

Besides, even the implicit criticism of predictability is off. What were the most important developments lately? Yuki asking Touya to sleep with each other. Yayoi trying to bribe Touya with sex and cash. At least _I_ was totally surprised by the first, and I would have been by the second aswell, if someone hadn't spoiled this part in this thread before.

My criticism isn't predictability, "predictable" isn't the worst thing an anime of this type could be. My criticism is that, even if there's a big mecha fight at the end of a Gundam show, it's still akin to watching pictures on a screen if you have no connection to the characters.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Scuse me, but you wouldn't work in advertising, would you? It's an art to add entirely meaningless attributes (like "easy" to writing) to highly questionable statements as if they were obvious. No explanation why "the relationships" (which? all of them?) depicted might be "weak" (Of course, they are not. WA depicts a perfectly normal web of relationships between childhood/school friends). And what are "meaningless" relationships? I've got to admit that I consider this continuous flow of unsubstantiated (and in my opinion, mostly questionable) negatively tainted statements irritating, but I guess I'll just have to live with them.

Well, the most important relationship in this anime is the one between Touya and Yuki, and at this stage, it's on the edge of collapse, there's very little feeling and on-screen chemistry between them, and they almost feel disconnected from each other emotionally. The show is paving the way for the collapse of their relationship, and, to speculate, it will very likely hinge on poor decisions that either one or both characters make. They've already set Touya up as a poor decision maker, hence his propensity for lying, his inconsistent empathy for his friends like Akira and Haruka (the exchanging of notes with Haruka was an example you brought up), the bungled date in ep 4, etc, etc. It's not a stretch to think that one or more of these decisions is going to have massive consequences down the road, which might lead to lots of broken hearts and angst and self-pity, etc, etc, you know, the soap opera brand of drama. Touya is a flawed character, but not in a way that makes him interesting, since it feels like his flaws are there purely to serve the soap opera drama, rather than being the point of his character, or a means to understand his character and his motivations and make him seem more complex.

Originally Posted by Mentar

So far, not a single character has been showing his/her "worst" traits, and it's working perfectly fine. Here you're not only leaving the ground of "personal opinion", you enter the realm of "pure speculation".

True. It's not "pure" speculation, it's speculation based on my experiences with this type of anime, but it is speculation nonetheless, so feel free to write it off, especially if it doesn't come to pass. If it doesn't happen that way, I'll admit I'm wrong, especially if there's some sort of momentous character development which accompanies the resolution (and something more than just the KGNE-style "I really love so-and-so, now let's move on from everything that happened and live happily ever after").

Originally Posted by Mentar

This is also where I just have to disagree. The characters ARE depicted in a very detailed way due to the implicit storytelling, you just have to pick up the clues. And it's way too early to tell whether or not there are any deeper thematics or motifs which are going to emerge. So why don't you leave your crystal ball at home and simply discuss what the show DOES instead of criticizing what you believe it might or might not do in the future? *scratch head*

Yes, it is speculation and there's a good chance that I could be wrong. But there are only eight episodes left. I'm still wondering when this show is going to show some depth and complexity, past just showing that one character likes another, or one character is tempted by another, or that two characters in a relationship can't seem to communicate with each other, ie, stuff which shows the states of relationships but doesn't expand on the characters or themes in a momentous way.

Originally Posted by Mentar

The way I see it, the show has been very carefully establishing and displaying the relationships between almost all characters. It has also begun to point out what the peculiarities are, and I see fault lines emerging. The absolutely non-cheap beauty I see in it is that we can begin to foresee which chain reactions are going to lead to which results. Furthermore, what I like about the show so much is that it does _not_ go for cheap dramatic thrills. The characters do _not_ show their worst traits so far, and it's progressing and developing nicely on its own. It's a very unexcited and low-key presentation which still not only manages to capture my interest, it also (and I rate this very highly) does NOT coerce me to take anyone's side so far. It does NOT use storytelling tricks to point out who to root for and who to dislike.

Sorry man, you've been building a straw man of your own negative expectations. Don't you even realize that?

That's probably true. It hasn't gone for cheap dramatic thrills at this stage because it's still setting things up. My suspicion is that once the setting up is done, it will resort to cheap dramatic thrills. And, when that happens, my concern is that, unless we have a reason to care about the characters, then none of it will matter. So I do have a legitimate reason for concern, especially since, as I said earlier, it seems to me that the characters are being written in a way so that, when and if the characters act at their worst for the sake of drama, it won't be jarring. I can believe that Touya can, down the road, act like a jerk, because that's how his character has been painted, even though he hasn't done anything explicitly bad, just yet.

Originally Posted by Mentar

No, you were not. The reference was directly to White Album. Please own up to what you write, or this is becoming a farce. Well, I guess it's past this point already.

Don't misconstrue my intention because I made a poor choice of words. To clear this up, what White Album currently is and what I fear White Album will become based on what anime tend to do with the genre conventions White Album is utilizing are two different things, but the links are apparent. I agree that it's undesirable to judge this anime based on speculation, and in hindsight, it's something I should have made more of an attempt to avoid doing so explicitly in this case (as hard as it is to talk about this anime without speculating), but there's a clear logic to how I reached the conclusions that I did. There's eight episodes left, so of course there's a chance I might be wrong, but so far the show has done nothing to allay my worst fears for where it's going, and the indications all seem to support my predictions, (ie, that characterization isn't a priority and the drama will be cheap). I have thought this through.

[tun]

Oh god Yayoi-san is so hot. If I were Touya, we'd be in the back of her BMW getting to know each other a little better.

What's her face that has to make all of the costumes. She'd get it too.

[SuperKnuckles]

Yeah, she is hot. But she was rather mechanical and I'm sure Touya was sort of creeped out by it. Also, he has a genuine thing going with Yuki too. I wonder why the guy wasn't just plain out pissed off at the approach.

[Steel Maverick]

Why is White Album under the tag, unintentional comedy? There have been some but very few comedic moments.