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JustRob · 2013-03-29, 17:17

Well, Naruto did convince Gaara to give up his murderous ways. He also changed Neji's view of the world and changed Kiba to not underestimate someone just because he's a dropout. And then there was Chiyo, who gave her life to save Gaara because of how Naruto inspired her.

Honestly, there's quite a number of people who were changed by Naruto or at least influenced.

Hunter · 2013-03-29, 17:27

Of course there is, what I'm saying is that this was caused by the sheer weight of his personality (or witnessing his action) rather than any "convincing" (but perhaps that's what Sabaku Kyu meant by convincing).

JustRob · 2013-03-29, 17:39

Well, nobody is going to be convinced by sheer small talk. Not by Naruto and not by Hashirama.

Ero-Senn1n · 2013-03-29, 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

And I could see your point more if Naruto and Hashirama's decisions always had immediate, clear benefits with no consequences whatsoever (as definitely was the case with Pein). But Madara and Sasuke have both caused tons of destruction and chaos. Naruto and Hashirama-- as heroes who have decided they won't give up their bonds with these dangerous people in order to stop them for good--they don't hold any responsibility for that?

They have caused all the destruction because people didn't listen to Hashirama and Naruto and did what they did. If they didn't choose to force Itachi kill his own clan Sasuke wouldn't be like he is now, etc. It's quite clear that most people in this manga are idiots when it comes to really important questions of life, but that's very close to the reality of our world (people choosing to hate entire nations and cultures without even knowing them, people choosing extreme pullution of the earth instead of changing the economy before it's too late, etc.). Just look how they treated Naruto when he was a child, it doesn't make sense at all, and it was only due to Naruto's exceptional character that he didn't turn against the village or didn't become indifferent to what happens to the people. Kishimoto reminded us in the chapter where team 7 reunites briefly that Naruto could be the evil guy and Sasuke the good guy if things were a little different. It's not just about a concrete decision that Hashirama or Naruto take but people simply fail to see and accept the philosophy that's behind it. And it's often because their personal greed and fears. In case of Madara it's obvious that Tobirama is in a completely different position than Hashirama: he wouldn't be able to beat Madara, so he probably fears him deep down. In case of Danzou it's about personal greed that what's a rational decision for his village is not rational for him personally. His goal is to be hokage so it was a rational decision to hide while Pain dealing with Tsunade.

In general the Naruto world works very much like ours, there are only a very few exceptions, so for people who can't have the luxury to make crazy decisions which then somehow work it's very hard to accept that someone like Naruto can bend the laws of the world and make the impossible possible. Some very smart people like Shikamaru and his dad have realized that about Naruto and they truested him, for example when Shikaku lets him deal with Pain. But people like Danzou are too simple minded and also too greedy to accept such things.

DarthDestroiar · 2013-03-29, 20:11

I know this has nothing to do with this but... I never understood how the 2 first hokages died. Did they died of old age? If so how when the Hokages were brought back why is Sarutobi old when the other 3 are on their top game. Or it was Orochimaru who wanted this way. Someone please explain me this.

JustRob · 2013-03-29, 21:00

I don't know how the First Hokage died. He was presumably killed or something not long after Hiruzen became the Third Hokage, or probably even before that, because...

The Second Hokage died right after appointing Hiruzen as the Third Hokage. He was out on a mission with Hiruzen, Danzo, Homura, Koharu, and some others, and they were surrounded by Kumo ninja. Tobirama sacrificed himself so the others could get away.

Kenu · 2013-03-30, 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustRob

The Second Hokage died right after appointing Hiruzen as the Third Hokage. He was out on a mission with Hiruzen, Danzo, Homura, Koharu, and some others, and they were surrounded by Kumo ninja. Tobirama sacrificed himself so the others could get away.

Which chapter is this?

james0246 · 2013-03-30, 11:16

So where are the Uzumaki in all of this? They should be appearing around this time in the flashback (Madara gave us the name for Konoha, but the Uzumaki gave the village it's symbol). I expressed interest in seeing Mito earlier in this thread, but I really want to see more of the Uzumaki in general (now that the Senjuu and Uchiha have been explored quite a bit, the Uzumaki are now the most mysterious clan).

itachi-san314 · 2013-03-30, 11:31

it's also strange to me that the uzumaki didn't want in on konoha. if they were so close to the village and the senju, then why not jump on board like the sarutobis and himuras? they got wiped out in a war where konoha could have offered them protection if they were under their banner. there definitely needs to be more explanation about them. the fact that it's their shrine sasuke just visited and the death god summon is their technique is a total setup for more exposition on them. not to mention the main character's last name should be of major importance now that everything is wrapping up. at this point i wouldn't be all that surprised if the so6p had a third child later on and (s)he was the originator of the uzumakis

james0246 · 2013-03-30, 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

it's also strange to me that the uzumaki didn't want in on konoha. if they were so close to the village and the senju, then why not jump on board like the sarutobis and himuras?

You already know the answer: The Uzumaki didn't like how the Senjuu were treating the Uchiha.

.

Ulquiorra · 2013-03-30, 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by james0246

I expressed interest in seeing Mito earlier in this thread

I hope she doesn't show up. The only thing her appearance would do is start Sakura(all three of them) and Hinata fans arguing who she was more like since Naruto is similar to Hashirama.

I don't really care about the Uzumaki in these flashbacks since they should only deal with what will answer Sasuke's question. Otherwise they could go on forever. Really, the most important flashback is Tobirama's since that is where things turned for the worst. And where Sasuke's hatred of Konoha might be justified.

james0246 · 2013-03-30, 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

I don't really care about the Uzumaki in these flashbacks since they should only deal with what will answer Sasuke's question.

This is arguably the last true flashback we are going to get in the series (considering it should be ending after this war arc is over), and since Mito ties directly to the Kyuubi (what with being the first known Kyuubi Jinchuuriki and all) Kishimoto would be remiss to not include her (it's not like she is Naruto's grandmother, so there is no need to bring her into any shipping discussions).

Additionally, besides brief details from Kakashi concerning Rin's death and maybe something from Madara, there is no other time in the series were we will get to know anything about the legendary yet inexplicably mysterious Uzumaki clan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

Really, the most important flashback is Tobirama's since that is where things turned for the worst.

I seriously doubt Tobirama will get his own flashback. Not only does he not seem like a person who would go through excessive detail describing anything, he would also be going over events Hashirama had already discussed. I expect he will confirm whatever Hashirama says and possibly add a little extra (Tobirama seems to act almost exactly as Tobi claimed he did). Maybe Sarutobi will get some time, but since we've already had three or four flashbacks featuring Sarutobi, I seriously doubt he will get a flashback of his own. Minato shouldn't have anything to say on the issue...unless he wanted Itachi to be the next Hokage

.

JustRob · 2013-03-30, 13:33

I don't even get why they brought Minato back. He doesn't really know anything about what they're discussing, since he wasn't there. He's just kinda standing there acting as a small comic relief to show that Hashirama was a loud and hyper kind of dude.

But in my opinion they should save the Uzumaki flashbacks for when Naruto is there to hear them. It would be kinda dumb if Sasuke got shit tons of information on the clan while Naruto still knows nearly nothing about them.

Midnight Commander · 2013-03-30, 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustRob

I don't even get why they brought Minato back. He doesn't really know anything about what they're discussing, since he wasn't there. He's just kinda standing there acting as a small comic relief to show that Hashirama was a loud and hyper kind of dude.

Well, I'm hoping Sasuke has something very interesting to ask him, that only he would know; maybe something that even somehow relates to Orochimaru's answer as to why he attacked the leaf (which I'm very interested in knowing). However, if I'm to be realistic, it will probably be a contrived, substanceless question because Kishimoto's primary reason for bringing him back is probably to simply give naruto yet more fan-service and powers : /

JustRob · 2013-03-30, 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Commando

Well, I'm hoping Sasuke has something very interesting to ask him, that only he would know; maybe something that even somehow relates to Orochimaru's answer as to why he attacked the leaf (which I'm very interested in knowing). However, if I'm to be realistic, it will probably be a contrived, substanceless question because Kishimoto's primary reason for bringing him back is probably to simply give naruto yet more fan-service and powers : /

I thought Orochimaru's reason for attacking the Leaf was always because Hiruzen didn't choose him to be the Hokage. I don't think there's really anything more to it then that, he's a pretty shallow guy.

Midnight Commander · 2013-03-30, 16:57

Judging from his conversation with Sasuke, It would seem that its not as simple as that. He left the leaf because he wasn't going to become hokage(and basically thought there was no benefit of him remaining there any longer), though attacking the village seems to be for a different reason. I also don't really think of Oro as that "shallow"; though I do understand why you might say so. Obviously his ultimate goal is to evolve into the perfect being -whatever that means to him, perhaps something to the effect of another sage of six. Though there may be a reason behind that, perhaps he wants to change the world as well? I'm in anticipation of finding out, and hearing his answer for attacking the leaf. One thing that I always found amusing about Orochimaru, is that while he wasn't always 'evil' per se, he really seems to enjoy being evil more than most villains in the story.

JustRob · 2013-03-30, 17:36

I honestly never knew what motivated that guy. I always just assumed he wanted to achieve eternal life and escape death, because his parents died. But apparently he never even tried to bring his parents back with Edo Tensei. Then there's his propaganda speech about learning every single technique, which to me just seems... Pointless.

But whatever, I guess there might be some deep meaning to it. It better be a good one though.

james0246 · 2013-03-30, 18:10

I'm beginning to think that Orochimaru is going to pull a So Dakki (from Houshin Engi) and try to become a god, only not for reasons we would expect.

DarthDestroiar · 2013-03-30, 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustRob

I don't know how the First Hokage died. He was presumably killed or something not long after Hiruzen became the Third Hokage, or probably even before that, because...

The Second Hokage died right after appointing Hiruzen as the Third Hokage. He was out on a mission with Hiruzen, Danzo, Homura, Koharu, and some others, and they were surrounded by Kumo ninja. Tobirama sacrificed himself so the others could get away.

Its really strange to me, to see Harishama geting killed (maybe the best of all time and stuff) even his brother, we need a flashback about that or something.

JustRob · 2013-03-30, 21:19

I never really liked how Tobirama was apparently killed by 20 nameless Kumo ninja either. I guess Kishimoto just couldn't come up with a guy who would be strong enough to kill them, so he went with this. Hashirama will probably have met a similar fate.

2013-03-29, 17:17	Link #101
JustRob Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008	Well, Naruto did convince Gaara to give up his murderous ways. He also changed Neji's view of the world and changed Kiba to not underestimate someone just because he's a dropout. And then there was Chiyo, who gave her life to save Gaara because of how Naruto inspired her. Honestly, there's quite a number of people who were changed by Naruto or at least influenced. __________________ The betrayal you can see is trivial. What is truly fearsome, is the betrayal you don't see.

2013-03-29, 17:39	Link #103
JustRob Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008	Well, nobody is going to be convinced by sheer small talk. Not by Naruto and not by Hashirama. __________________ The betrayal you can see is trivial. What is truly fearsome, is the betrayal you don't see.

2013-03-29, 21:00	Link #106
JustRob Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008	I don't know how the First Hokage died. He was presumably killed or something not long after Hiruzen became the Third Hokage, or probably even before that, because... The Second Hokage died right after appointing Hiruzen as the Third Hokage. He was out on a mission with Hiruzen, Danzo, Homura, Koharu, and some others, and they were surrounded by Kumo ninja. Tobirama sacrificed himself so the others could get away. __________________ The betrayal you can see is trivial. What is truly fearsome, is the betrayal you don't see.

2013-03-30, 13:33	Link #113
JustRob Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008	I don't even get why they brought Minato back. He doesn't really know anything about what they're discussing, since he wasn't there. He's just kinda standing there acting as a small comic relief to show that Hashirama was a loud and hyper kind of dude. But in my opinion they should save the Uzumaki flashbacks for when Naruto is there to hear them. It would be kinda dumb if Sasuke got shit tons of information on the clan while Naruto still knows nearly nothing about them. __________________ The betrayal you can see is trivial. What is truly fearsome, is the betrayal you don't see.

2013-03-30, 17:36	Link #117
JustRob Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008	I honestly never knew what motivated that guy. I always just assumed he wanted to achieve eternal life and escape death, because his parents died. But apparently he never even tried to bring his parents back with Edo Tensei. Then there's his propaganda speech about learning every single technique, which to me just seems... Pointless. But whatever, I guess there might be some deep meaning to it. It better be a good one though. __________________ The betrayal you can see is trivial. What is truly fearsome, is the betrayal you don't see.

2013-03-29, 17:27	Link #102
Hunter Bubbly and super fun Join Date: May 2003 Location: Doesn't look like Kansas	Of course there is, what I'm saying is that this was caused by the sheer weight of his personality (or witnessing his action) rather than any "convincing" (but perhaps that's what Sabaku Kyu meant by convincing).

2013-03-29, 20:11	Link #105
DarthDestroiar Senior Member Join Date: May 2009	I know this has nothing to do with this but... I never understood how the 2 first hokages died. Did they died of old age? If so how when the Hokages were brought back why is Sarutobi old when the other 3 are on their top game. Or it was Orochimaru who wanted this way. Someone please explain me this.

2013-03-30, 11:16	Link #108
james0246 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: East Cupcake	So where are the Uzumaki in all of this? They should be appearing around this time in the flashback (Madara gave us the name for Konoha, but the Uzumaki gave the village it's symbol). I expressed interest in seeing Mito earlier in this thread, but I really want to see more of the Uzumaki in general (now that the Senjuu and Uchiha have been explored quite a bit, the Uzumaki are now the most mysterious clan).

2013-03-30, 11:31	Link #109
itachi-san314 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011	it's also strange to me that the uzumaki didn't want in on konoha. if they were so close to the village and the senju, then why not jump on board like the sarutobis and himuras? they got wiped out in a war where konoha could have offered them protection if they were under their banner. there definitely needs to be more explanation about them. the fact that it's their shrine sasuke just visited and the death god summon is their technique is a total setup for more exposition on them. not to mention the main character's last name should be of major importance now that everything is wrapping up. at this point i wouldn't be all that surprised if the so6p had a third child later on and (s)he was the originator of the uzumakis

2013-03-30, 16:57	Link #116
Midnight Commander Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Command center, the ship's bridge	Judging from his conversation with Sasuke, It would seem that its not as simple as that. He left the leaf because he wasn't going to become hokage(and basically thought there was no benefit of him remaining there any longer), though attacking the village seems to be for a different reason. I also don't really think of Oro as that "shallow"; though I do understand why you might say so. Obviously his ultimate goal is to evolve into the perfect being -whatever that means to him, perhaps something to the effect of another sage of six. Though there may be a reason behind that, perhaps he wants to change the world as well? I'm in anticipation of finding out, and hearing his answer for attacking the leaf. One thing that I always found amusing about Orochimaru, is that while he wasn't always 'evil' per se, he really seems to enjoy being evil more than most villains in the story.

2013-03-30, 18:10	Link #118
james0246 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: East Cupcake	I'm beginning to think that Orochimaru is going to pull a So Dakki (from Houshin Engi) and try to become a god, only not for reasons we would expect.

2013-03-30, 21:19	Link #120
JustRob Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008	I never really liked how Tobirama was apparently killed by 20 nameless Kumo ninja either. I guess Kishimoto just couldn't come up with a guy who would be strong enough to kill them, so he went with this. Hashirama will probably have met a similar fate. __________________ The betrayal you can see is trivial. What is truly fearsome, is the betrayal you don't see.